The sweet and innocent Suns in pictorial

[JoMal]

Nash was trying to run behind Bowen to cross to the middle of the court and his right thigh clipped the back (left) leg of Bowen, around his knee and calf, which threw him off balance. 

Reality:  Objection, fabrication.
Judge:  Sustained.  Mr Jomal keep your scope within 4 legged critters not flying please.

One thing we call all concur on.  Eliminate flopping, take up hockeys stance to severely penalize the flopper.  Sure it will never be 100% right but moves like Bell pulled and Manu regularly pulls, please.  It is ironic Bells Flagrant 3 flop was vs Manu.

You know, I wasn't 'judging' the intensions of Nash or Bowen. Just what happened that caused Bowen to plop on the court and what contact caused it.

[Skandery]

So you are not exactly saying much in the longest post I've ever seen you make

This is the longest post you've ever seen me make -- 16 lines?!??

you didn't see this one in the 'Cheap shot Bob' thread?

Guys lets remember that Robert Horry has SIX CHAMPIONSHIPS with THREE DIFFERENT TEAMS.  The guy knows how to win plain and simple.  He didn't make the last second shot to win the game so instead he exchanged himself for Stoudemire and Diaw for Game 5.  That is both savvy and smart.  Its actually transcendant if you think about.  He knows he hasn't quite been the contributor to this Spurs team as in years past barring a couple of timely shots in the Denver series.  Michael Finley, Brent Barry, and Fabricio Oberto have done much more for the Spurs in the series than he has.  He knows the Spurs are deeper and he wouldn't be a big loss to the team--let's body check Nash into the scorer's table and see who tries to retaliate on me because my veteran Spurs are too smart and too disciplined to even think about clearing the bench.  If you notice, after the forearm check he simply walks away, did you notice that no other Spurs really flinched or made a move until Raja Bell tried to rush Horry.  Diaw and Stoudemire, two of the most lame brain individuals to ever walk the basketball hardwood (and sadly important pieces of Phoenix' team) did and in that moment--Robert Horry helped his Spurs team the BEST and ONLY way he can.

Rarely ever do I agree with Charles Barkley but in this case ESPECIALLY, because I give Robert Horry all the credit in the world, extenuating circumstances have to be considered.  A head-hunter, an enforcer, pretty much has decided an outcome of a playoff series and at some point, a line has to be drawn.  

The last stark case of this I saw was in the 1996 Finals when Seattle met the 72 win Bulls.  Chicago won three straight games and Seattle came roaring back in the next 2 games.  In part because of the emotional charge Nate McMillan gave them when he came back from injury but also because of the underappreciated yeoman's work that bench player Frank Brickowski was doing on the boards and was doing defensively against Rodman and Longley.  At the end of Game 5, a game Seattle eventually won, Rodman had finally given the Brick one to many elbows to the head, so Frank, subtle as a slegehammer, turned around and threw a punch at Rodman.  The Bulls went on to win Game 6 with a full roster while Seattle was missing one very big, very large man, and their only true inside bruiser in the middle.    

Dennis Rodman (5 championships) and Robert Horry (6 going on 7 championships) are two of the smartest players in NBA history and I'll argue with anyone until I'm blue in the face that they're both surefire Hall Of Famers.  They knew what it took to win.  No matter how ugly, no matter how dirty, no matter how unjustly, no matter the cost, the honor, the chivalry, the spirit of competition, they WILL BEAT YOU BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!!  The people who cheer for their teams will love them, the people who cheer against their teams will hate them with seething passion, but they use their abilities, their intellect, and most of all THE SYSTEM to their advantage.  Is it time for the SYSTEM to change, that's another debate for another time, and I've been losing that argument for over a decade.  

that was 31 lines, which is nowhere near as long as this one--

Has their ever been a sports personality so unappreciated as poor, poor Rick Adelman.  I've been saying this for years and am sure that I've posted on this site numerous times about the absolute lack of respect and indifference towards perhaps one of the greatest coaches of the last 20 years.  Is their a sports figure so ignored, so easily dismissed--I don't really know if their is one, surely not in professional basketball.

Let's start with Portland.  This team in the 80s was a perennial 1st round loser.  Generally finishing second in the division (I assume to the Lakers) and losing in the 1st round but managing to make it to round 2 in 1983 and 1985.  The team anchored around Drexler, Kersey, Duckworth, Porter, and Calwell Jones (PF) in the mid-80s.  Adelman came in with that same core in mid 88-89 season and got off to a rough start 14-21.  Portland addressed their need for a PF by trading for Buck Williams from New Jersey that summer and drafting forward Cliff Robinson (Uncle Cliffy).  In just his second year of coaching and first full year, Adelman took them to 59 Wins and an NBA Finals appearance.  The next year, 63 Wins and West Conf Finals appearance.  The next year, 57 Wins and a NBA Finals appearance.  His next two years, he took his team to 51 wins and 47 Wins but was ousted in the 1st round each of those years, the first to David Robinson's Spurs, the second to Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets (The eventual champions).  The organization couldn't forgive poor Rick those losses after 2 Finals appearances and a WCF while in one of the toughest divisions in the NBA during that time period.  The man had averaged 55 wins a year and wasn't given respect or time enough to see the development of the team.  One year under Carlesimo and Trailblazer veteran stalwarts Drexler and Porter couldn't get out of their fast enough.    

In Golden State he spent two non-descript years struggling to 36 wins in the first year and 33 wins the next.  Then again when a team's best player is Latrell Sprewell, an aging Chris Mullin is your second best player, and Top Pick Bust Joe Smith is your third best player you're going to have problems.  The franchise was in such disarray that no coach (until Nellie this year) could take that team to the playoffs since Adelman replaced Nelson in the summer of 1994.

Then Sacramento.  From 1986 until Adelman was hired the team made the playoffs a total of one time.  The team had not won more than 39 games since the 82-83 season.  In Adelman's first strike-abbreviated year (98-99 season), he took the team to 27 wins (a .540 winning percentage) and the first round of the playoffs, the team would not miss the playoffs for Adelman's entire coaching reign, spanning 8 seasons.  Masterful coaching brought out the best in Webber (something Jimmy Lynam, Bernie Bickerstaff, and Don Nelson failed dreadfully throughout Webber's first four years), used Divac's passing in the high post better than any coach before, and nourished the development of youngsters Jason Williams and Peja Stojakovic.  Though the faces changed (Vernon Maxwell --> Nick Anderson --> Doug Christie: Jason Williams --> Mike Bibby: Vlade Divac --> Brad Miller), the offense ran to perfection and Sacramento ushered in a new style of basketball taken up by the Phoenix's and Washington's and Denver's of today.  Two consecutive 1st round losses to Seattle and San Antonio and it was the same old story, for poor Rick Adelman.  Sacramento's first year A.R.A. , the team struggles to 33 wins, misses the playoffs for the first time in 8 years, and has Sacramento fans talking rebuild.  

Rick Adelman is 14th all-time in career wins and 10th all-time in career playoff wins and has a career 61% winning percentage.  In an 82 game season he will average 50 wins.  50 wins would place a team as the 2nd seed in the Eastern Conference and the 6th seed inthe Western Conference for this year.  In fact of those who have coached in at least 1000 NBA games (and Rick has coached 1,233 games), only Phil Jackson, Red Auerbach, and Pat Riley have a higher winning percentage.  Yet where's the balleyhoo about what Rick's up to and where he might coach next.  Where's the droves of pundits, analysts, bloggers, and journalists clamoring about the next possible destination for Rick.  

If Rick coaches again and will inevitably win the games, develop the talent, bring the best out of the insane and pampered, achieve division titles and playoff appearance, I'm sure people will find yet another 100 excuses for his success and continue to demean and downplay his achievements just as everyone has done from Day 1.  Because while Rick Adelman ALWAYS does well, Rick Adelman is never the reason for it.

...that doozy was 45 lines.  Did you miss that one, it was its own thread title...



...do you begin to see why I take very little of what you say seriously?  

[JoMal]

Us Laker fans know exactly how Lurker feels right now 

You mean like, I don't know, abused Suns' fans?

[Lurker]

The Spurs are labeled as cheap and dirty but not the Suns, once again.

 
There is only one team with a reputation for physical play and that is San Antonio (and deservedly so).  The Suns have done nothing but respond in kind and have lost the battle fought on the terms the Spurs have set!  Call the Spurs geniuses, call them champions, exalt their win-at-all-costs methods, but don't expect the neutrals out here to pat them on the back for those methods.        

And I haven't figured out why the Suns are the only team to whine about physical playoff basketball.  Excuse me...not the Suns.  Just Amare, D'Antonio and the majority of their fans.  Nash, Thomas, Bell, Marion, Barbosa have all been abvove whining and just answer by playing harder.

Funny thing is that the Spurs for all their "physical" play have regularly been one of the best teams at not fouling and putting their opponent on the line.  They haven't ranked lower than 6th in fewest fouls in the past 4 years.  And for 3 of those 4 years averaged less fouls per game than Phoenix.  So which team is the more physical foul-prone team?

Goes back to my post about them being very good at adapting their play to what the officials allow.  Also up until game 5 the Suns were averaging over 103 points per game so I find it difficult to believe that they are playing the Spurs style.

Isn't it fun to spin the world in your perception...I know I enjoy it.

[WayOutWest]

Finally got to see the video.  First, Manu and Fabs are a pair of fags, they flop if the AC is on too high.  Raja, a dirty POS in his own right, is much better at flopping, he flops but he's made it convincing at times, ala Fisher and Christie.

Amare leveling Horry under the rim was just as bad as Horry leveling Nash.  I totally agree that if you're going to label one team as dirty because of one player or a couple of plays then both teams are dirty.  Raja is a total cheapshot punk and Bowen is a dirty POS for all his "oops" my foot got under yours just as you were landing.  Both these teams are cream puff soft, they have one or two guys who actually have any toughness what so ever.  All in all anyone who thinks the Spurs or Suns are playing dirty basketball should do a "sack check" cause these wussy teams pale in comparisson to very recent and past history.

[westkoast]

So you are not exactly saying much in the longest post I've ever seen you make

This is the longest post you've ever seen me make -- 16 lines?!??

you didn't see this one in the 'Cheap shot Bob' thread?

Guys lets remember that Robert Horry has SIX CHAMPIONSHIPS with THREE DIFFERENT TEAMS.  The guy knows how to win plain and simple.  He didn't make the last second shot to win the game so instead he exchanged himself for Stoudemire and Diaw for Game 5.  That is both savvy and smart.  Its actually transcendant if you think about.  He knows he hasn't quite been the contributor to this Spurs team as in years past barring a couple of timely shots in the Denver series.  Michael Finley, Brent Barry, and Fabricio Oberto have done much more for the Spurs in the series than he has.  He knows the Spurs are deeper and he wouldn't be a big loss to the team--let's body check Nash into the scorer's table and see who tries to retaliate on me because my veteran Spurs are too smart and too disciplined to even think about clearing the bench.  If you notice, after the forearm check he simply walks away, did you notice that no other Spurs really flinched or made a move until Raja Bell tried to rush Horry.  Diaw and Stoudemire, two of the most lame brain individuals to ever walk the basketball hardwood (and sadly important pieces of Phoenix' team) did and in that moment--Robert Horry helped his Spurs team the BEST and ONLY way he can.

Rarely ever do I agree with Charles Barkley but in this case ESPECIALLY, because I give Robert Horry all the credit in the world, extenuating circumstances have to be considered.  A head-hunter, an enforcer, pretty much has decided an outcome of a playoff series and at some point, a line has to be drawn. 

The last stark case of this I saw was in the 1996 Finals when Seattle met the 72 win Bulls.  Chicago won three straight games and Seattle came roaring back in the next 2 games.  In part because of the emotional charge Nate McMillan gave them when he came back from injury but also because of the underappreciated yeoman's work that bench player Frank Brickowski was doing on the boards and was doing defensively against Rodman and Longley.  At the end of Game 5, a game Seattle eventually won, Rodman had finally given the Brick one to many elbows to the head, so Frank, subtle as a slegehammer, turned around and threw a punch at Rodman.  The Bulls went on to win Game 6 with a full roster while Seattle was missing one very big, very large man, and their only true inside bruiser in the middle.     

Dennis Rodman (5 championships) and Robert Horry (6 going on 7 championships) are two of the smartest players in NBA history and I'll argue with anyone until I'm blue in the face that they're both surefire Hall Of Famers.  They knew what it took to win.  No matter how ugly, no matter how dirty, no matter how unjustly, no matter the cost, the honor, the chivalry, the spirit of competition, they WILL BEAT YOU BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!!  The people who cheer for their teams will love them, the people who cheer against their teams will hate them with seething passion, but they use their abilities, their intellect, and most of all THE SYSTEM to their advantage.  Is it time for the SYSTEM to change, that's another debate for another time, and I've been losing that argument for over a decade. 

that was 31 lines, which is nowhere near as long as this one--

Has their ever been a sports personality so unappreciated as poor, poor Rick Adelman.  I've been saying this for years and am sure that I've posted on this site numerous times about the absolute lack of respect and indifference towards perhaps one of the greatest coaches of the last 20 years.  Is their a sports figure so ignored, so easily dismissed--I don't really know if their is one, surely not in professional basketball.

Let's start with Portland.  This team in the 80s was a perennial 1st round loser.  Generally finishing second in the division (I assume to the Lakers) and losing in the 1st round but managing to make it to round 2 in 1983 and 1985.  The team anchored around Drexler, Kersey, Duckworth, Porter, and Calwell Jones (PF) in the mid-80s.  Adelman came in with that same core in mid 88-89 season and got off to a rough start 14-21.  Portland addressed their need for a PF by trading for Buck Williams from New Jersey that summer and drafting forward Cliff Robinson (Uncle Cliffy).  In just his second year of coaching and first full year, Adelman took them to 59 Wins and an NBA Finals appearance.  The next year, 63 Wins and West Conf Finals appearance.  The next year, 57 Wins and a NBA Finals appearance.  His next two years, he took his team to 51 wins and 47 Wins but was ousted in the 1st round each of those years, the first to David Robinson's Spurs, the second to Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets (The eventual champions).  The organization couldn't forgive poor Rick those losses after 2 Finals appearances and a WCF while in one of the toughest divisions in the NBA during that time period.  The man had averaged 55 wins a year and wasn't given respect or time enough to see the development of the team.  One year under Carlesimo and Trailblazer veteran stalwarts Drexler and Porter couldn't get out of their fast enough.     

In Golden State he spent two non-descript years struggling to 36 wins in the first year and 33 wins the next.  Then again when a team's best player is Latrell Sprewell, an aging Chris Mullin is your second best player, and Top Pick Bust Joe Smith is your third best player you're going to have problems.  The franchise was in such disarray that no coach (until Nellie this year) could take that team to the playoffs since Adelman replaced Nelson in the summer of 1994.

Then Sacramento.  From 1986 until Adelman was hired the team made the playoffs a total of one time.  The team had not won more than 39 games since the 82-83 season.  In Adelman's first strike-abbreviated year (98-99 season), he took the team to 27 wins (a .540 winning percentage) and the first round of the playoffs, the team would not miss the playoffs for Adelman's entire coaching reign, spanning 8 seasons.  Masterful coaching brought out the best in Webber (something Jimmy Lynam, Bernie Bickerstaff, and Don Nelson failed dreadfully throughout Webber's first four years), used Divac's passing in the high post better than any coach before, and nourished the development of youngsters Jason Williams and Peja Stojakovic.  Though the faces changed (Vernon Maxwell --> Nick Anderson --> Doug Christie: Jason Williams --> Mike Bibby: Vlade Divac --> Brad Miller), the offense ran to perfection and Sacramento ushered in a new style of basketball taken up by the Phoenix's and Washington's and Denver's of today.  Two consecutive 1st round losses to Seattle and San Antonio and it was the same old story, for poor Rick Adelman.  Sacramento's first year A.R.A. , the team struggles to 33 wins, misses the playoffs for the first time in 8 years, and has Sacramento fans talking rebuild. 

Rick Adelman is 14th all-time in career wins and 10th all-time in career playoff wins and has a career 61% winning percentage.  In an 82 game season he will average 50 wins.  50 wins would place a team as the 2nd seed in the Eastern Conference and the 6th seed inthe Western Conference for this year.  In fact of those who have coached in at least 1000 NBA games (and Rick has coached 1,233 games), only Phil Jackson, Red Auerbach, and Pat Riley have a higher winning percentage.  Yet where's the balleyhoo about what Rick's up to and where he might coach next.  Where's the droves of pundits, analysts, bloggers, and journalists clamoring about the next possible destination for Rick. 

If Rick coaches again and will inevitably win the games, develop the talent, bring the best out of the insane and pampered, achieve division titles and playoff appearance, I'm sure people will find yet another 100 excuses for his success and continue to demean and downplay his achievements just as everyone has done from Day 1.  Because while Rick Adelman ALWAYS does well, Rick Adelman is never the reason for it.

...that doozy was 45 lines.  Did you miss that one, it was its own thread title...



...do you begin to see why I take very little of what you say seriously? 

Yeah it was the longest post I've seen you make that I actually bothered to read lol  I joke I joke I kid I kid....honestly, I dont care if you take me seriously or not.  Alot of the times I am joking around or poking fun for the heck of it.  That little comment was said as a joke. However, whether you care for my opinion or take it seriously doesn't change the point I was trying to make.  Nor does it change the fact that no matter if they are 'fighting back' or not it is still considered dirty.  If you kick me in the family jewels and I do the same they are both cheap shots.  One was just in retaliation and one was not.  Still dirty shot tho.

As for the other ones, you do realize that it is possible to miss posts especially when you are going back and forth with another poster?

JoMaL...yes I mean it is so similar it is almost scary.  Replace Spurs with Lakers and Suns with Kings.....there ya go