Spurs v Suns Game 5

[westkoast]

The problem with going smaller is that they would have to take Duncan out of the game in that instance as he was the one they were exploiting with Marion.  The rest of the guys matched up good enough.    I think you saw that Duncan was really playing some great defense and having his way on the block for the most part.  That is a tough call in that spot.  Do you go smaller to match up on defense or do you use your size advantage to really stick it to them on the offensive end?

  You must be talking about the start of the 2nd half.  I'm talking 1st half.  Duncan was doubled 14Xs in a row.  Like the second he got the ball.  When he passes out the Spurs had zero drive n kick or dribble n create a shot.  They held the ball and acted like a deer in the headlights then tossed up some desperado clunker.  Phx meanwhile put on a pic n roll clinic on the other end.  Who was at the personell disadvantage?  Phx made an 18-2 run and Pop called nary a timeout, made no adjustment and was actually picking his nose at one point.
Gee and one would think knowing Tim is being doubled would lead to a 4-3 advantage.....
Anywho they survived.  GNob and Bowens treys along with a Finley trey were keys to the comeback.

Oh okay ya I was speaking more about the 1st half.  You are right about the doubles.  There was really no movement at all.  They swung the ball around pretty well but no one was getting into the paint.  Lucky for the Spurs the jumpers were falling because it could have ended up like so many other Spurs games where Duncan gets hard doubles and then the rest of the squad clanks the jumpers resulting in an L.  I don't know if I saw a single cut to the basket the entire time.  I take that back, your boy Flabs actually made a nice cut but I believe he missed the layup.  Other then that they just passed around the perimeter.  Makes no sense when Duncan is tall enough to pass over Marion and whoever else was coming on the double.  That however should be more placed on the players shoulders then Popavich. They all are seasoned vets and have been playing basketball since they were children.  People at the park know when to cut, why don't they?  That should fall more on Tony Parker and the rest of the squad then Popavich.  They are not children and they are not rookies.

[WayOutWest]

First, Duncan played like a big wuss in the first quarter.  He was being guarded by a 6'9 guy in Kurt and played like a scared little girl.  The doubles were not in effect at all in the 1st half it seemed.  Finally TD got rolling in the 3rd at which point the Suns implemented a hard double on TD and pretty much shut him down.

IMO the change in the line up really helped the Suns, the Spurs just couldn't match up no matter who the put on the court, the only line up that seemd to hand in there was Parker, Bowen, Manu, Fins and TD, every other line up the Spurs put out there just got schooled.  The Suns only played 6 guys this game so they bascially ran out of gas, that cost them the game.

Raja's flop was a joke, more WWF than NBA.  The suspension rules are good as is, you don't want to get into trying to figure out "intent".  Get off the bench and you get suspended is simple enough for even an NBA player to understand.  I am bummed that the suspension cost the Suns the game and probably the series.

[JoMal]

Lurker, you keep coloring every one of your posts as nearly one-sided as you are accusing me of being, where I am suddenly pro-Suns. I am not. Again, and I really hate repeating myself, but until you acknowledge it, I will keep saying it to begin every one of my post, I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS THIS SERIES, period. That you are getting so defensive about the Spurs regarding how this series is now perceived is completely on YOU, and trying to shove it elsewhere does not strike me as being very upstanding.

JoMal...

Of course it is the league's fault and the Spurs fault that

1) Two Suns players who are reminded of the rules before the season and AGAIN before the playoffs couldn't follow the rules.  Rules, that I will add, have been very strictly enforced over the years.  It happen to Ewing, it happened to Artest, it happened to Jalen Rose WHO IS NOW ON THE SUNS ROSTER!  What part of don't leave the bench did they fail to understand?

....and your point being.......is that you are incapable of comprehension of what others might be saying when it comes to your precious Spurs?

The rule is incapable of managing a person's behavior in that situation, PERIOD. You cannot redirect the actions of a player AT THE IMMEDIATE ONSET OF A CONFRONTATION!!!!! It cannot be done. Do you understand what I am saying here? It - can - not - be - done.

As was abundantly clear seconds after Stoudemire and Diaw stood up and moved towards Nash and Horry, they realyzed what they had done, the coaches realyzed what they were doing, and both easily backed away from the action. THIS is essentially how the rule fails. As the examples you cited support, what a player sitting on the bench will do in reaction AT THE MOMENT of controversy and what he does MERE SECONDS later CANNOT BE REGULATED.  
 

2) What in the world were the Suns assistant coaches doing?  There are a ton of coaches and not one of them felt that they should look to the bench first?  No one has the assigned responsibility for keeping the players in line?  

What are you talking about? What I saw were coaches getting up and pushing both players back, but it took them a moment to do it, during which time Stoudemire and Diaw had already reacted. We are not talking about Spiderman reflects here, but NORMAL, EVERYDAY reflexes. The coaches were not sitting next to these players, BTW.

3) No one...media, league, even Suns fans...have addressed the role that the officiating crew played in the whole affair.  IMO it was amazing that there wasn't more violence in that game.  Javie usually runs one of the cleanest games around.  But in this case he seemed to go out of his way to give the Spurs the short end of the stick when it came to the amount of physical play allowed.  Maybe it has something to do with his good buddy Joey being kicked out of the league...but whatever the reason he should have lots of explaining to do.

Probably because no one other the jaded Spurs fans perceive the referreeing being responsible for Horry's actions one way or the other. What on earth makes you think that what the referrees were or were not calling earlier in the game ever entered Horry's mind in the moments his actions took over late in that game?

Do you actually think that the non-call moments earlier on Finley's grab of Nash had anything to do with Horry's hipcheck? Or any of the other ref calls and non-calls from earlier in the game.

That is totally laughable.          
  

4) Funny how the Spurs have been soft for years and now when they play the same physical playoff game that has been the standard they are labeled dirty by a whining Suns team and America jumps on the bandwagon.  The Nuggets series was more physical but neither team said a word.  They shut up & play.

The Nuggets' series was not this physical and you know it.

What America is seeing is that the Horry play benefitted the Spurs more then the Suns and the League is backing this up by accusing the Suns' players of essentially not being human. It is a joke and long term will hurt the Spurs because of it, but by all means keep harping how how "wronged" the Spurs have been by the so-called biased refereeing. It makes you look SOOOOOOOOOOO credible.

Either you have joined the Anti-Spurs Fan Club or are just playing devil's advocate because your team couldn't even make the playoffs but I have a hard time believing that you truly agree with most of what you have written this postseason.

Please do not join the ranks of weak and idiotic by bringing in my status as a fan of a team that did not make the playoffs. That is a very sad and pathetic antic of those who think this arguement somehow augments their own opinions somehow. It doesn't.

And Lurker, THAT type of thing is so far beneath you that I will let it slide this time. But never do it again.

BTW, you can believe me or not, but my opinion is certainly not jaded by my own affiliations or my feelings towards the Suns in this series, or certainly not the Spurs, who I am still picking to represent the Western Conference this year.

But your disagreement with my opinions is duly noted.

[JoMal]

First, Duncan played like a big wuss in the first quarter.  He was being guarded by a 6'9 guy in Kurt and played like a scared little girl.  The doubles were not in effect at all in the 1st half it seemed.  Finally TD got rolling in the 3rd at which point the Suns implemented a hard double on TD and pretty much shut him down.

IMO the change in the line up really helped the Suns, the Spurs just couldn't match up no matter who the put on the court, the only line up that seemd to hand in there was Parker, Bowen, Manu, Fins and TD, every other line up the Spurs put out there just got schooled.  The Suns only played 6 guys this game so they bascially ran out of gas, that cost them the game.

Raja's flop was a joke, more WWF than NBA.  The suspension rules are good as is, you don't want to get into trying to figure out "intent".  Get off the bench and you get suspended is simple enough for even an NBA player to understand.  I am bummed that the suspension cost the Suns the game and probably the series.

The rule should be modified to affect players who continue to move onto the court in those situation. Simply standing up and taking one or two steps forward is too restrictive. In most cases, the players stop on their own before getting involved in the fracas, but the rule essentially is trying to regulate initial human reaction and it cannot be done.

[WayOutWest]

First, Duncan played like a big wuss in the first quarter.  He was being guarded by a 6'9 guy in Kurt and played like a scared little girl.  The doubles were not in effect at all in the 1st half it seemed.  Finally TD got rolling in the 3rd at which point the Suns implemented a hard double on TD and pretty much shut him down.

IMO the change in the line up really helped the Suns, the Spurs just couldn't match up no matter who the put on the court, the only line up that seemd to hand in there was Parker, Bowen, Manu, Fins and TD, every other line up the Spurs put out there just got schooled.  The Suns only played 6 guys this game so they bascially ran out of gas, that cost them the game.

Raja's flop was a joke, more WWF than NBA.  The suspension rules are good as is, you don't want to get into trying to figure out "intent".  Get off the bench and you get suspended is simple enough for even an NBA player to understand.  I am bummed that the suspension cost the Suns the game and probably the series.

The rule should be modified to affect players who continue to move onto the court in those situation. Simply standing up and taking one or two steps forward is too restrictive. In most cases, the players stop on their own before getting involved in the fracas, but the rule essentially is trying to regulate initial human reaction and it cannot be done.

Too many problems with a rule change.  You could use the coaches box as a guide line but what if the altercation is right in front of a teams bench?  The rule is fine as is, there is no room for "what if's".  If you can't control your players than tough shiznizle.

[Lurker]

First, Duncan played like a big wuss in the first quarter.  He was being guarded by a 6'9 guy in Kurt and played like a scared little girl.  The doubles were not in effect at all in the 1st half it seemed.  Finally TD got rolling in the 3rd at which point the Suns implemented a hard double on TD and pretty much shut him down.

IMO the change in the line up really helped the Suns, the Spurs just couldn't match up no matter who the put on the court, the only line up that seemd to hand in there was Parker, Bowen, Manu, Fins and TD, every other line up the Spurs put out there just got schooled.  The Suns only played 6 guys this game so they bascially ran out of gas, that cost them the game.

Raja's flop was a joke, more WWF than NBA.  The suspension rules are good as is, you don't want to get into trying to figure out "intent".  Get off the bench and you get suspended is simple enough for even an NBA player to understand.  I am bummed that the suspension cost the Suns the game and probably the series.

The rule should be modified to affect players who continue to move onto the court in those situation. Simply standing up and taking one or two steps forward is too restrictive. In most cases, the players stop on their own before getting involved in the fracas, but the rule essentially is trying to regulate initial human reaction and it cannot be done.

Too many problems with a rule change.  You could use the coaches box as a guide line but what if the altercation is right in front of a teams bench?  The rule is fine as is, there is no room for "what if's".  If you can't control your players than tough shiznizle.

But that doesn't fit with JoMal's point...waaa, waaa why punish me.  Don't wash my mouth out with soap for saying a bad word.  It is the other guy's fault for stealing my toy.  Waaa, waaa.

Total lack of personal responsibilty.  The Suns have whined all series and aren't man enough to step up and say "we screwed up and got caught".   Instead it has to be the Spurs fault, the league's fault, Stern's fault...anybody's fault except for those who broke a rule that is clearly stated, been enforced strictly for over a decade and specifically addressed both before the season starts and before the playoffs start.

Here is one of the reasonable columns on the subject...

Just sit tight
Players, not NBA, are to blame for Suns-Spurs fallout
Posted: Wednesday May 16, 2007 3:33PM; Updated: Wednesday May 16, 2007 5:27PM

During the 2004 playoffs, members of the Indiana Pacers were involved in an altercation with members of the Boston Celtics. Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal, who had just been on the receiving end of a hard foul from Brandon Hunter, confronted Hunter near midcourt. Indiana's Ron Artest, who was not in the game at the time, took two steps onto the court before catching himself and returning to the Pacers' sideline.

Was Artest anywhere near the altercation?

No.

Did his shuffle onto the Conseco Fieldhouse hardwood escalate the incident?

No again. Probably no one on the floor noticed he did it.

Was he suspended?

Yes.

Should he have been suspended?

Absolutely.

The NBA has been crystal clear about its policy since instituting this rule before the 1994-95 season. A player may not, under any circumstances, leave the bench area during an altercation. According to a league spokesman, players are reminded of this rule in writing during the preseason and again before the playoffs.

Allowing players to "stand up" for teammates only serves to inflame an already volatile situation, which could lead to disastrous results. And make no mistake: Amaré Stoudemire and Boris Diaw were not making their way over to offer Steve Nash a hand up during Game 4 in San Antonio. They were not going to be peacemakers; in fact, if Suns assistant Marc Iavaroni, who apparently read the memo, had not clotheslined Stoudemire before he reached the scrum, Robert Horry might not be as healthy as he is today.

We have already seen the damage that can happen just among the players on the floor, never mind those leaving the bench. The primary perpetrators of the Palace brawl in '04 were on the court when Artest leveled a cheap shot at the head of Ben Wallace. And at the Madison Square Garden brawl earlier this season, it didn't take more than Nate Robinson's hot head and Carmelo Anthony's right hand to turn a hard foul into a YouTube immortal. Think these guys can't or won't really hurt each other? Ask Rudy Tomjanovich what it feels like to get punched in the face by a 6-8, 230-pound power forward.

Yes, the timing is unfortunate. Phoenix has valiantly battled back to tie the series and now faces long odds against a Spurs team that loses only the 4.8 points per game Horry has provided in the series. But there is a bigger principle involved, and that is that the league has an image problem it is desperately trying to clean up.

Will the league revisit the issue in the offseason? Probably, but only because Suns owner Robert Sarver will insist on it. But don't expect much to change, not when incidents like the one at the Garden get more time on SportsCenter than the cumulative coverage of every game-winning shot this season. Nor should it change.

BTW I would have preferred that the "penalties" handed down would have been just fines for all parties involved.  Somewhere in the line of $100,000 for Horry and $10-25,000 for Diaw & Amare.

[Lurker]

I will keep saying it to begin every one of my post, I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS THIS SERIES, period.

You can scream it from every corner of the world if you like.  But your posts reflect a different view.  It is obvious to anyone with even a modicum of reading comprehension that you DO NOT WANT THE SPURS TO ADVANCE!  Should I also use italics, bold, larger font and underline to help emphasize this?

[westkoast]

First, Duncan played like a big wuss in the first quarter.  He was being guarded by a 6'9 guy in Kurt and played like a scared little girl.  The doubles were not in effect at all in the 1st half it seemed.  Finally TD got rolling in the 3rd at which point the Suns implemented a hard double on TD and pretty much shut him down.

IMO the change in the line up really helped the Suns, the Spurs just couldn't match up no matter who the put on the court, the only line up that seemd to hand in there was Parker, Bowen, Manu, Fins and TD, every other line up the Spurs put out there just got schooled.  The Suns only played 6 guys this game so they bascially ran out of gas, that cost them the game.

Raja's flop was a joke, more WWF than NBA.  The suspension rules are good as is, you don't want to get into trying to figure out "intent".  Get off the bench and you get suspended is simple enough for even an NBA player to understand.  I am bummed that the suspension cost the Suns the game and probably the series.

The suspension didn't cost them the game.  Saying that sounds like a cop out because they actually were beating the Spurs for almost the entire game.    Mike D'Antoni has plenty of other players he could have brought into the line up if his players were running out of gas.  They were short 2 players not 5.   Good coaches make due with what they have.  What really cost them the game was lack of execution down the stretch and a couple of rushed 3s that did not go down.  If they executed a bit more and Nash didn't turn the ball over they could have won that game.  They handled the Spurs for about 44 minutes.     Also, the fact Amare was not in actually helped the Suns attack the Spurs foot speed weakness even more so then they had in the previous 4 games.  While it does make a difference when you have a player the caliber of Amare in, to say that everything would be the same if he was in and they would have ended up winning is not true.  There is entirely too many other situations that could have or could not have shown up to say one way or another...in two games in this series Amare was in and they did not win.

Amare could have been in foul trouble like he has been quite a few times in the playoffs this year...

Marion probably wouldn't have scored 24 points as he got most of his points because of the matchup...

Contrary to what Rick believes the Suns do not to go Amare in the post against the Spurs in crunch time.  Nash is still running the offense and creating everything so in that regard it doesn't matter.  The way Amare gets his points on Duncan is with his quckness, the exact same way Marion was able to score on him.  Marion is actually much faster then Amare is anyways.

[msc]

Total lack of personal responsibilty.  The Suns have whined all series and aren't man enough to step up and say "we screwed up and got caught".   Instead it has to be the Spurs fault, the league's fault, Stern's fault...anybody's fault except for those who broke a rule that is clearly stated, been enforced strictly for over a decade and specifically addressed both before the season starts and before the playoffs start.

I agree 100% with this statement. 

It's also not the least bit surprising to me that a Kings fan would empathize with the Suns 

[JoMal]

You can scream it from every corner of the world if you like.  But your posts reflect a different view.  It is obvious to anyone with even a modicum of reading comprehension that you DO NOT WANT THE SPURS TO ADVANCE!  Should I also use italics, bold, larger font and underline to help emphasize this?

I will keep saying it to begin every one of my post, I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS THIS SERIES, period.

Apparently, you even lack that modicum. Just how jaded are you regarding what I am saying? This is getting to be fascinating. Maybe some professional help might do you some good on this point. 

And I am STILL picking the Spurs to represent the Western Conference in the finals.

Do you really want to display this kind of stupidity over and over and over again? Just how dumb are you?

That IS a question, because for future reference, it needs to be determined so I know how far I have to talk down to you.

What I am referring to has been the interpretation of the rule itself, which in my opinion is not doing what it is intended on doing and for the reason stated. I would feel the same way if a Suns' player had hipchecked Parker into the sideboard. That is VERY CLEAR in how I stated my opinion, and in how Stern decided to word his response to the critizism he received.

VERY CLEAR, like in crystal clear. I have at NO POINT mentioned anything about the Suns' players being wrongly suspended, because the rule states they had to be. And like many, I also think the Spurs got the better end of the suspensions because of it, though the incident was caused by, IN THIS CASE, a Spurs player.

And for your information, I have literally NEVER heard anyone whine about the officiating like <Mr. S.P.U.R.S. LURKER> . I picture you taping every game, then rerunning every, single angle of every, single play of every single perceived infraction of every single game so you can find every, single mistake the refs made is missed calls that went against the Spurs and that you just HAVE to point out every, single time until you get the feeling that no wrong call ever favors the other team.

That, my friend, is the very definition of  "waaa, waaa why punish me.  Don't wash my mouth out with soap for saying a bad word.  It is the other guy's fault for stealing my toy.  Waaa, waaa."

Again, this mental problem you are displaying is becoming fascinating to observe.

[JoMal]

Total lack of personal responsibilty.  The Suns have whined all series and aren't man enough to step up and say "we screwed up and got caught".   Instead it has to be the Spurs fault, the league's fault, Stern's fault...anybody's fault except for those who broke a rule that is clearly stated, been enforced strictly for over a decade and specifically addressed both before the season starts and before the playoffs start.

I agree 100% with this statement. 

It's also not the least bit surprising to me that a Kings fan would empathize with the Suns 

Sorry, msc, but this has to be done:

Please do not join the ranks of weak and idiotic by bringing in my status as a fan of a team that did not make the playoffs. That is a very sad and pathetic antic of those who think this arguement somehow augments their own opinions somehow. It doesn't.

[Lurker]

You can scream it from every corner of the world if you like.  But your posts reflect a different view.  It is obvious to anyone with even a modicum of reading comprehension that you DO NOT WANT THE SPURS TO ADVANCE!  Should I also use italics, bold, larger font and underline to help emphasize this?

I will keep saying it to begin every one of my post, I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS THIS SERIES, period.

Apparently, you even lack that modicum. Just how jaded are you regarding what I am saying? This is getting to be fascinating. Maybe some professional help might do you some good on this point. 

And I am STILL picking the Spurs to represent the Western Conference in the finals.

Do you really want to display this kind of stupidity over and over and over again? Just how dumb are you?

That IS a question, because for future reference, it needs to be determined so I know how far I have to talk down to you.

What I am referring to has been the interpretation of the rule itself, which in my opinion is not doing what it is intended on doing and for the reason stated. I would feel the same way if a Suns' player had hipchecked Parker into the sideboard. That is VERY CLEAR in how I stated my opinion, and in how Stern decided to word his response to the critizism he received.

VERY CLEAR, like in crystal clear. I have at NO POINT mentioned anything about the Suns' players being wrongly suspended, because the rule states they had to be. And like many, I also think the Spurs got the better end of the suspensions because of it, though the incident was caused by, IN THIS CASE, a Spurs player.

And for your information, I have literally NEVER heard anyone whine about the officiating like <Mr. S.P.U.R.S. LURKER> . I picture you taping every game, then rerunning every, single angle of every, single play of every single perceived infraction of every single game so you can find every, single mistake the refs made is missed calls that went against the Spurs and that you just HAVE to point out every, single time until you get the feeling that no wrong call ever favors the other team.

That, my friend, is the very definition of  "waaa, waaa why punish me.  Don't wash my mouth out with soap for saying a bad word.  It is the other guy's fault for stealing my toy.  Waaa, waaa."

Again, this mental problem you are displaying is becoming fascinating to observe.

Obviously you are as bored with work today as I am.  But keep up with the bolds, underlines, italics and large fonts.  They enhance your arguments so exquisitely. 

BTW I AM A SUNS FAN

[JoMal]

westkoast

The suspension didn't cost them the game.  Saying that sounds like a cop out because they actually were beating the Spurs for almost the entire game.    Mike D'Antoni has plenty of other players he could have brought into the line up if his players were running out of gas.  They were short 2 players not 5.   Good coaches make due with what they have.  

I agree completely. Where were the other Suns' players who could have come in and given the Phoenix starters some break from playing all those minutes? D'Antoni essentially used a six man rotation, where Popovich has seven players play double digit minutes and three others combine for 13 more minutes.

What really cost them the game was lack of execution down the stretch and a couple of rushed 3s that did not go down.  If they executed a bit more and Nash didn't turn the ball over they could have won that game.  They handled the Spurs for about 44 minutes.

  

Doesn't this just go back to the first point? By the end of the game, even though the Suns were in charge most of the way, they just ran out of gas at the end.

Also, the fact Amare was not in actually helped the Suns attack the Spurs foot speed weakness even more so then they had in the previous 4 games.  While it does make a difference when you have a player the caliber of Amare in, to say that everything would be the same if he was in and they would have ended up winning is not true.  There is entirely too many other situations that could have or could not have shown up to say one way or another...in two games in this series Amare was in and they did not win.

I sort of disagree with this statement. Duncan, for one, did not seem so affected by who was on him and who he was guarding so much as he was missing shots he normally makes. And Manu was a huge factor in the outcome, game-long.

But having the Suns' players with a bit more energy at the end, it still would not have mattered. The Spurs were just a notch more aggressive at the end, where the Suns lost their edge.

[JoMal]

Obviously you are as bored with work today as I am.  But keep up with the bolds, underlines, italics and large fonts.  They enhance your arguments so exquisitely. 

BTW I AM A SUNS FAN

Not so bored; just a fast typer.

But I have to admit, you cover this up VERY well.

I AM A SUNS FAN

[Lurker]

Obviously you are as bored with work today as I am.  But keep up with the bolds, underlines, italics and large fonts.  They enhance your arguments so exquisitely. 

BTW I AM A SUNS FAN

Not so bored; just a fast typer.

But I have to admit, you cover this up VERY well.

I AM A SUNS FAN

You forgot this:

I will keep saying it to begin every one of my post, I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS THIS SERIES, period.