Amare , Boris and Horry our for game five...

[SPURSX3]

Sorry guys but deal with it.  What Bob did was wrong - and yes, possibly *intelligent* considering the ramifications of this whole thing - but at the same time look at the Spurs bench and WHO JUMPED UP AND ONTO THE COURT ON OUR SQUAD??  Don't tell me that our experience didn't help our guys from making the same YOUNG   mistake that Amare and Boris made.  I'm not saying that it makes our squad better, I am just pointing out that the mistake the Suns made (Amare and Boris) was something they should have realized that before they got up - I am sure other team members did and they were smart enough not too otherwise they would be out too.  Instincts, or not, it was their mistake to get up and walk away from the bench - hell Boris didn't walk much at all and they still got him on this call - I was surprised by that - but they will learn from this mistake.  I have not said that Horry shouldn't have been suspended - that was a no brainer that once he did that he should be gone.  I have been looking on the net and reading fans rant about how we are dirty, rough, etc the Spurs are and I have to laugh because we were cupcakes not too long ago.  Not only that, but Bowen and Manu would be great acquisitions by any other squad, and yet people gripe because of "dirty" play or flopping - whatever.  That's like me complaining about Nash burning us with that behind the back pass, or Barbosa (was it him or Diaw?) throwing himself forward and creating a charge.  I still can't believe we gave Barbosa up and traded him before we ever really gave him to show us anything.  the stuff is frustrating but it's part of the game.  I didn't like the officiating yesterday but I didn't blame that for our loss, and yet at the same time if the officials started locking down on everyone we would be saying "let them play!" 

Just because the Suns lost two players for tomorrow game does not mean that it will be a cake walk for us.  I think Phoenix IS in trouble - but hell that's just my opinion.  They can run small ball on us and kick our tails tomorrow.  This is not over yet.  Tough call for the Suns but you got to play through it and win. I would find it heart breaking if we didn't win tomorrow - I know that we can STILL LOSE - so we gotta see who steps up.  Nash is money (and should have been the MVP again IMHO) so you never really feel safe with a player that good and that tough still in the game.  here's to hoping we pull out a win tomorrow.  Go Spurs Go!   

[msc]

Great post, SPURSX3.  I agree and think that's the right perspective. 

Whoever says that Spurs or specifically Bowen and GNob are dirty players are either crybaby Suns fans or just jilted fans in general. 

Look, I'm obviously NOT a Spurs fan or a Suns fan.  My beloved Lakers suck right now and I'm just enjoying watching a good series.  The Spurs are not a dirty team, they are a physical team.  Basketball is a physical sport and the best teams play tough and physical on both ends of the floor.  For all of the accusations of Bowen sliding under people’s feet and causing injury ... I don't buy it.  Yes, he's a physical player; he gets up on you and sticks with you like white on rice.  There are going to be some accidental incidents and I personally believe that is all that's ever occurred with Bowen.  I don't think he's ever tried to cause injury to another player.

This will be a 7 game series, IMO.  After last night I thought that for sure, and even with the suspensions I still feel it will be.  Some people believe the refs/league will insure that it goes 7, but I've never been from that camp.  There were some bad calls last night that seemed to favor the Suns, I saw at least two or 3 times the gave Nash the call with little or no contact and the bs charge on Barbosa that was called a block on Parker.  I saw them, but that game was the Spurs game and they flat out lost it.  They controlled the game for about 42 mins and then they went cold on offense and their D went limp.  You have to give the Suns credit for hanging around and continue to battle through until the very end.  They ended the game on a 16-3 run and while Duncan going out certainly didn't help the Spurs, they should have been able to hold on to that game at home with Amare riding the pine as well. 

[Reality]

I thought Parker outplayed Nash until the final minutes of Gm 4.
And before you say "Well the final minutes, that's all that counts", look the Spurs had a total team meltdown along with a board consensus board whackily reffed game that very much so helped Nash along.

I'm looking forward to see how Tony does in Gm 5 and 6.

Converting you mistaken "Nash MVP" or "Dirk MVP" voters to the real MVP being Duncan seemed a lock after Gm 3.  Now he's gonna have to have another dominating performance or two before i can convert you.  But don't confuse Travelmires numbers vs Tim with what really happened.

Agree with you two that the Suns should not be overlooked tommorow.  Disagree the Suns have a great chance to win.  Slim and none.  San An vs that depleted roster should be a lock win, even for Popavich.

[SPURSX3]

Reality, I am not converted, but I will give props to Nash for he toughness and play, he gets popped and keeps on coming - hell that pop to his nose from Tony's head should have put NASH on the ground, instead tony was shaken ...although that might have to do with him being from France also - but still, Nash didn't seem to shaken by that pop.  Maybe he should have tried his hand at boxing if he could take a hit like that...he might stand a better chance of getting a title in that sport than in this one.   

[Reality]

Oh his 2 behind the back passes to Stoudamire were clutch.  And Nashs floorgame and dribbling skills are great.
But entire gamewise, i think Tony did better and the gap between them is much closer then most are crediting Parker.  But i will eat crow that Tony still too often makes the unexplainable dumb turnover pass, two things Nash rarely does. 

[SPURSX3]

I am proud of Tony, but without Nash the Suns would just be stooges brainwashed by D'Antoni's sickeningly white teeth.  He's like a second hand Tony Robbins without the great motivation.  Man that guy creeps me out...

[Lurker]

Parker is a solid YOUNG (24) point gaurd.  Maybe in 5-7 years he will grow into superstar (Nash's) level and while he can match him occasionally he is not there yet.  But for right now Parker is probably the best fit in the NBA for THIS Spurs team.

IMO Pasrker will never be the passer that Nash is...but can become a more efficient scorer.  I would rate them about equal in the scoring department right now.  Parker's speed and ability to finish in the lane are things that can't be taught but with more experience he can learn when to better use those skills.  If you compare the 2007 Parker with the 2003 Parker you can see how far he has already progressed in this area.

[spursfan-101]

I disagree. I hate to see such a competitive series be derailed because the league uses a blanket ruling and suspends two players for just "reacting" to a play. It woulD have been different if they were too have run onto the court, but they did not get involved, and should not have been suspended.

This very well, could be the NBA championship, and to see such a good series tarnished bothers me as a basketball fan...not just a Spurs fan.

[Lurker]

Great post, SPURSX3.  I agree and think that's the right perspective. 

Whoever says that Spurs or specifically Bowen and GNob are dirty players are either crybaby Suns fans or just jilted fans in general. 

Look, I'm obviously NOT a Spurs fan or a Suns fan.  My beloved Lakers suck right now and I'm just enjoying watching a good series.  The Spurs are not a dirty team, they are a physical team.  Basketball is a physical sport and the best teams play tough and physical on both ends of the floor.  For all of the accusations of Bowen sliding under people’s feet and causing injury ... I don't buy it.  Yes, he's a physical player; he gets up on you and sticks with you like white on rice.  There are going to be some accidental incidents and I personally believe that is all that's ever occurred with Bowen.  I don't think he's ever tried to cause injury to another player.

This will be a 7 game series, IMO.  After last night I thought that for sure, and even with the suspensions I still feel it will be.  Some people believe the refs/league will insure that it goes 7, but I've never been from that camp.  There were some bad calls last night that seemed to favor the Suns, I saw at least two or 3 times the gave Nash the call with little or no contact and the bs charge on Barbosa that was called a block on Parker.  I saw them, but that game was the Spurs game and they flat out lost it.  They controlled the game for about 42 mins and then they went cold on offense and their D went limp.  You have to give the Suns credit for hanging around and continue to battle through until the very end.  They ended the game on a 16-3 run and while Duncan going out certainly didn't help the Spurs, they should have been able to hold on to that game at home with Amare riding the pine as well. 

I agree msc.  Playoffs are physical and the overall experience of the Spurs shows that they know how to play that game.  IMO the thing that the Spurs have "mastered" is the ability to play as physically as the refs allow.  This is the same thing the the Bulls & Lakers both were able to accomplish.  Judging what the refs for any one game will or won't allow and then pushing the envelope.  It is why one of biggest "whines" is when the game is not called consistently.  If you are going to allow players to run through screens you allow it for both teams.  If you call a handcheck a foul in the first quarter you call it in the 4th quarter.  Each set of refs are different and call the game differently so the ability to adjust to how the game is called is a very important factor in winning during the playoffs.

[Lurker]

Playoffs are physical and the overall experience of the Spurs shows that they know how to play that game.  IMO the thing that the Spurs have "mastered" is the ability to play as physically as the refs allow.  This is the same thing the the Bulls & Lakers both were able to accomplish.  Judging what the refs for any one game will or won't allow and then pushing the envelope.  It is why one of biggest "whines" is when the game is not called consistently.  If you are going to allow players to run through screens you allow it for both teams.  If you call a handcheck a foul in the first quarter you call it in the 4th quarter.  Each set of refs are different and call the game differently so the ability to adjust to how the game is called is a very important factor in winning during the playoffs.

I know...I am quoting myself.  I guess it is just a Spurs thing.   

But I wanted to expand on this in relation to tonight's game...

I believe that tonight's game will be called extremely tight in the first half.  It should open up some in the second half but the refs will set a tone.  Look for Bowen to have two fouls in the first 3-4 minutes of the game.  And Duncan to have 3 before halftime.  Also Kurt Thomas will be allowed to muscle Duncan a lot to help offset the loss of 2 big men. 

The difference will be which team can adjust to the style of game being called.  This is where I think that SA has the edge.  They will just work a little harder on defense and push the limit on physical play to what the refs allow.  IMO Phoenix will get frustrated because they will be trying to play a more physical game (like game 4) but it won't be called in the same fashion.  And the frustration will lead to a flagrant foul by Raja (BTW I really like his play...tough, hard-nosed defense with enough offensive talent to respect).  In the end, the Suns fans will feel that the league/refs gave game 5 to the Spurs. 

However if Phoenix adjusts and plays with smarts they can pull this game out.  Marion will play the 4 position and be a dangerous matchup on offense.  Nash, Barbosa and Bell will spend a lot of minutes on the court together and should push the ball.  Spurs will have to work extremely hard to not get caught up in running with Phoenix.  Horry's minutes will get spread among Finley, Fabs, Barry and Manu. 


edited to correct spelling errors

[westkoast]

Converting you mistaken "Nash MVP" or "Dirk MVP" voters to the real MVP being Duncan seemed a lock after Gm 3.  Now he's gonna have to have another dominating performance or two before i can convert you.  But don't confuse Travelmires numbers vs Tim with what really happened.

I'd have to agree with this.  Replace Nash MVP or Dirk MVP with Duncan MVP or Boozer MVP.  Both Duncan and Boozer have had alot of very impressive games for their squads.  Nash has really been sliding the last few games and proving that his teammates are better then most make them out to be.  Both defensively and offensively Duncan/Boozer have got it done.  Not only in the regular season but in the playoffs.

As for the suspension...Horry 2 the other guys 1....I think it fits the bill.  Like it was said by one of our posters yesterday to Joe, you cannot just suspend them (Suns) at the start of the regular season.  A message has to be sent that no matter what, if you leave the bench, you will be suspended.  You cannot start giving passes to certain players or teams.  That would pretty much end the rule right there on the spot.

What Horry did was stupid, no one can deny that.  I can't say it is intelligent either regardless of the fact they traded an aging bench player for the second best player on the squad.  Personally I like to play the best of the best at the parks I frequent.  When it comes to watching ball, obviously I want to see the best quality b-ball I can.  With Amare out I don't know if we will get that.

[rickortreat]

I think the decision sucks, because it benefits the Spurs at the expense of the Suns.  Therefore it unbalances what was a great series.

Did Amare even step on to the court?  It looked to me like both were still in the bench area, although standing and moving towards where NASH was, not where Horry was!  I still haven't seen any video of the Spurs bench.  Is the NBA saying that no-one on the Spurs bench left while there was an altercation?  I find that very hard to believe.

Also, the rule is being missapplied here.  How can you KNOW if there is an altercation if you can't see?  There really wasn't any fight.  If there's no fight, what is the problem with standing up?  Horry did something thuggish and that was the end of it.  Someone should have clocked Bob good - he has it coming for what he did.

As for the game, the Spurs are better at executing in the half-court, primarily because they have Duncan.  Without Amare, the Spurs will be able to control the boards, which will offset Phoenix greater team speed. You can't run unless you have the ball. Provided the Spurs play with discipline, they should be able to win, but that was also the case in Game 4 and there the Spurs lost control over themselves.

Amare's dunks were huge for the Suns from a momentum standpoint.  Tonight the Suns will have to spread the floor and bomb away from outside.  In general, I prefer the Spurs style here- much better to work for the high-percentage inside shot. But on occasion, if you have the outside shooters you can win a game by bombing from the outside and hustling for the long bounces.  That is how Golden State plays and you saw how successful it was against a weak inside team and then against a team with a solid inside game.

Well, the Spurs have a very effective inside game, so the Suns will have to be able to shoot lights out tonight to earn a victory.

I am also concerned about game 6, since some of the Suns will have played extended minutes in 5 and may not have their legs back by game 6.

The worst thing about this is that I'm not sure who the better team is, and fans everywhere are being deprived of seeing the series play out because of the suspensions.  If Amare through a punch, I could see it, but standing up and taking three steps shouldn't result in a suspension.  Stupid Stern.

[JoMal]

Frankly, it was worth it to get up this morning just to see Lurker type -

It is why one of biggest "whines" is when the game is not called consistently.

   

I am giving the Suns much more of a chance to win this next game then many others, apparently. This is exactly the type of game that can be a showcase. I would expect Nash to be particularly effective at home, the adrenaline will be pumping, the crowd is going to be nasty, and Bowen will be watched like a hawk by the refs so nothing will appear like favoritism.

I am of the opinion that the refs simply do not have the balls to stand up in a hostile arena and NOT call the game a bit in favor of the team that has been perceived as being screwed by a League decision.  

[Laker Fan]

OK Rick, I will say it just one more time and perhaps you will understand finally (yeah right). Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw both COMPLETELY LEFT THE BENCH AREA in order to involve themselves (or prtetend they wanted to involve themselves) in the confrontation that was going on between Horry and Bell (IMO Bell dodged a bullet here). Amare took WAAAY more than the 3 steps you said he took, but then, you also said Horry had 100 lbs on Nash. Amare was a solid 10-15 feet from his bench and easily 3-4 feet ON THE PLAYING FLOOR, hence the suspension. The rule SAYS NOTHING about whether they actually become involved in whatever is going on on the floor or not, it says you leave the bench, you get suspended, and Amare hardly just "stood up". You really should watch a game if you are going to comment like you know what happened, 3 step tells me you did not see anything.

I think this rule is far too arbitrary in its enforcement, I would like to see it modified so that if a player does get up, even enter the playing floor, he would be suspended for:
A) Getting involved in any way, shape, form, or fashion, or
B) Have his personal conduct in this situation evaluated on a case by case basis to determine whether a suspension is warranted; ie, was he clearly moving with the intent to involve himself, was he mouthing off so as to escalate, or was he merely looking to help a team mate up or try to see if he was OK. IMO the tape shows that whether he was acting or not, Amare made it look like he was going after Horry, so his suspension is warranted, Diaw is a perfect example of why this rule needs modification, he didn't go out as far as Amare, he did not need restraining, and he didn't have that "I'm going to punch somebody" look, fine him, yes, suspend him, no.

I think the rule has its place, if Auburn Hills didn't convince anyone of that, than maybe that sick, immoral pornography called ultimate fighting is more your speed than basketball. A rule to prevent escalation is a good thing, but a rule that is so black and white zero tolerance is not the way to go.

[Reality]

Also after the Malice at the Palace, Stern insisted he went over and over and over with the Players Association what zero tolerence meant, and they and their liarwyers all signed off.  Duncan and whoever got up after Elson hit the floor should have gotten the same treatment.  i don't like the "no alterction" in that one, altho its true Duncan did not go nearly as close to the potential alterction then Stoudamire did.