Cheap shot Bob! nt

[Joe Vancil]

There's an inherent problem by rewarding the "smart" play of Robert Horry of exchanging himself for Stoudemire and Diaw.  The problem is that NON-BASKETBALL trumps basketball, and now, there's no reason not to send Pat Burke out to put Ginobilli in the hospital.

Likewise, you have to suspend Stoudemire and Diaw.

So, let's split the difference.

Suspend Diaw and Stoudemire for *2* games instead of 1, and specify it to be served at the start of next season.

Easy, elegant, simple solution.

[Skandery]

Horry's Foul

...Was hard, make no mistake, a very hard foul.  MSC, Laker Fan, Lurker, and westkoast, you guys are making this a little more trivial that it actually was.  Now the reason it was hard wasn't particularly the force in which he hit Nash with, it was the change in momentum.  Nash was going full speed ahead and was sent flying sideways as a transfer of his own momentum not by Horry's hit.  That is what makes the foul particularly flagrant.  I'm sure you guys remember what Posey did to Kirk Hinrich last year.  Hinrich's forward momentum caused him to go flying moreso than Posey's body check.  Now then, did Nash flop around once he hit the ground to sell what was obvious to everyone--you betcha!!  Did Nash actually hit the scorers table with devastating force--no question!  I knew instantly it was an automatic ejection and one-game suspension before Nash hit the table even though I subscribe to msc's philosophy on the wussiness of the league about 95% of the time.        

The Referee's

...were unfairly biased towards the Suns and failed in controlling the escalating physicality of the game which is unfair to BOTH teams.  The officiating has been particularly lax when it comes to fouls whistled throughout this series.  I thought Javie would once again shine the spotlight on himself and start parading people to the line with a technical or two for good measure.  Javie, being the antithesis of just and consistent officiating, went against his own grain and did one of his worst officiating jobs in recent memory.  The guy could've just been himself and it would've been better, horrible as that may sound.  There were many instances where the Refs compensated for the Spurs physical brand of defense by letting absolute rapings go on the Spurs offensive side.  I mean Ginobili, Parker, and Oberto were literally thrown, shoved, and smacked with nary a call.  Barbosa and Nash were smothered and pestered and sent to the line.  I think this will continue to be a problem because you have two divergent styles of basketball diametrically opposed.  Offensively, the Suns want to run and flow while the Spurs want to slow down and execute.  Defensively the Suns want to switch and rebound, while the Spurs want to contain and pressure.  All eyes are on this series believing it to be the championship determination so Stern knows he's under the microscope.  Does he call EVERY foul and bog down a potentially exciting series, or does he LET things go and turn the court into a battleground.  Stern and the Refs need to choose one or the other but this blatant inconsistency game to game depending on the series situation, the homecourt, and what will garner more dollars nonsense has to stop.  I have no doubt in my mind the league benefitted from the Suns winning Game 4 and ensuring a long series, but that is a slap in the face to Spurs fans and Suns fans will wonder what happened to the "consistency" game to game when the wheel turns.

Amare Stoudemire

...never intended to fight, throw a punch or do anything of the sort.  All he intended to do was fulfill some machoistic bravado by acting like he was rushing to the scene in front of his "boys".  Watch the video very carefully.  You'll notice that once he does his initial rush, he slides to the right and acts like he's being held by the Suns assistant when in actuality he was holding them back (Picture a guard holding back the front row of a concert).  He had a clear path directly to Horry and instead pulled this maneuver.  Whether he never intended to do something in the first place or it donned on him that he just got himself suspended--I don't know.  But he pulled himself back and then allowed the assistants to shove him back to the bench.  Diaw was wondering forward like a dazed fool never realizing the depth of his own error until the assistant pulled him back.    

[ziggy]

My take.  You have to suspend Amare and Diaw, because the left the bench.  This is the penalty plain and simple.   Phx knows the rules and part of a coaches job is to make sure the players know the rules and that they don't allow themselves to get caught up in this kind of thing.

As far as Horry he needs to be suspended as well, as it is clear he instigated the whole thing and it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't.  I would also suspend Popovich, because this is no different than the reason for suspending players that leave the bench.  Put the onus on the coach to make clear that there are certain things that are out of line and that there will be punishment meted out when bad things happen.  If you allow one team to do things  that lead to fights and ejections and suspensions, then there needs to be a price.  The idea that you do whatever you can to win is fine, so long as it follows within the context of the game.  This isn't MMA, so crack down on the people responsible for the team, THE COACH.  Pop needs to sit out as well.  What Horry did was crap, bush league, and unjustified garbage.  This is about the best team winning and if the only way for SA to win is to pull this kind of thing that is chicken sh!!.

I heard Duncan also left the bench earlier, though I didn't see it.  If he did he is gone as well.

[Laker Fan]

Wow Zig, why don't you tell us how you really feel? I do agree with you though, if Popovich drew up this play, he should sit as well, same with Duncan if he left the bench. I am no fan of zero tolerance (a chjild getting expelled for bringing alergy medicine to school springs to mind) but the leaving the bench rule MUST be enforced under all circumstances or it will be unenforcable at all.

I do not agree with your take Joe that they should enforce it but belay those suspensions until next season because that leaves it open for all players to assume there are no consequences in the playoffs for your actions, Horry should be gone for at least 2 games plus some serious fines but Amare and Boris need to pay their price now as well, regardless of whether they truly intended to get physical or not, and Skander's take that Amare was making a show seems reasonable, especially considering the whine dog attitude he is revealing this series I doubt he wanted any part of Horry, but to me all the more reason he should be out, because if it is true than he was very cognizant of what he was doing, it was no heat of the moment mistake.

[rickortreat]

Stern will not give the Spurs the series by suspending Stoudamire for a game.  Suspend him for what?  Standing up!  That's nuts and it rewards the Spurs for an incendiary cheap shot.

The people who are making light of this, even denying that Bob did not make contact with Nash are blinded by their faith.  That was a forewarm shiver, delivered by a guy that outweighs Nash by over 100 lbs.  He threw his arm and hip right into Nash.  This is basketball not Hockey, and that type of physical play is completely beyond the pale.  I don't understand how Horry could do that, it's just so wrong that I wouldn't have thought Bob would stoop so low in such a meaningless gesture.

Nash was thown in a completly different vector than the one he was travelling in prior to the contact.  This is a law of physics.  If an object is travelling in a certain direction at a certain speed and is then thrown in a different direction, there was significant contact.

No one threw a punch and there was no bench clearing brawl.  To suspend someone for standing up is stupid, as is the rule. These are human beings, not robots, and to expect them to sit on the bench as they see one of their own get slammed isn't reasonable. At the same time you understand why the NBA instituted that rule, since the last thing the league wants is to see players standing toe-to-toe ready to box.  Most of them can't even fight anyway!

This puts Stern into a tough spot because the rule is excessively draconian.  It assumes that the player has no other reason to stand up, like to see how his teamate is, or to renter the game on a dead ball.  I also didn't see much on the tape about the Spurs bench or if any of them got up.

[Laker Fan]

Rick you are amazing. 100 lbs?!?!?! Try 40 lbs and next time check your "facts" before you spout off so ill-informed, which I guess means you will never post again if that is the case.

So Amare just "stood up"? He made no move onto the floor? He took no steps in anger toward Horry? He did not get held and pushed back by an assistant and a team mate? You see, all that is on tape so peddle that bucket of fish somewhere else. I knew you didn't watch the game.

I am certainly not saying he didn't make contact, but I have yet to see an angle from Horry's front that shows the contact coming from the forearm. From every angle I have seen it was a hip check, not a forearm shiver, which, according to the "law of physics" is far more likely to send Nash so off course as opposed to a forearm, especially given the mere 40 pound difference in weight. No question Nash got popped good and hard, but he was going for the Oscar the whole way down, which is completely understandable, only a fool wouldn't have tried to sell this as an attempted decapitation, and Nash is no fool. But I say he was almost able to regain his footing and saw the benefit of taking the alternate route instead, props to him for thinking that quick but there is no doubt he was selling that foul like a car salesman.

[JoMal]

Besides my obviously facetious take on this earlier, Horry's intension was to deck Nash, which he did. I do not hold that Nash was 'acting' in any way because it happened too quickly for acting to take place. He will be suspended and, really, what else is there to say about Horry in all of this...

except...

Stoudemire and Diaw stood up after it happened. And stepped forward, onto or near the court. By rule, they will not be playing in game five.

And this is where the rule ruins it completely. The League "thinks" it handles both teams equally with this rule in place; if an altercation takes place on the court, any player on the bench who stands up and moves onto the court gets suspended for the next game.

But think about it. Which team is by far more likely to move onto the court, regardless of whether a teammate instigated the confrontation or not? The one that is outnumbered 20,000 to 15 - the visiting team. Take what happened in Auburn Hills. It was "circle the wagons" for the Pacers and that is what happened.

Any visiting team that sees a teammate knocked to the floor, as Nash was, will automatically, reflextively, and understandably try to protect their teammate from further problems because the numbers are against them, and you never know who else (the fans, for instance) are going to cause further trouble.

I believe that is why you see the home team is often the instigator of these altercations. They know they have the safety net of being in friendly surroundings.

[Laker Fan]

Excellent points JoMal, I guess I have not made clear that I too think the rule overly arbitrary. The problem I have here is that Amare is trying to sell he was already up and moving to the scorer's table to check, that is as bogus and disingenuous as you can get and insults everyone's intelligence, to say the supension he deserves should be assessed next season as Joe suggests is dangerous at its core in that it opens the floodgates of no consequences in the playoffs. This is monster of Sterns making and he has to enforce it until he comes to his senses and modifies, not eliminates, it.

Honestly, the lack of consistancy in this series is frustrating, and while I am baffled at someone like Horry, never known as anything other than a great player and a classy guy allowing his frustrations to get the better of his years of post season experience, I certainly think he was intentionally trying to draw Susn starters off the bench, which leads me to believe, as Ziggy suggests, Pop may very well have been behind it.

[westkoast]

There is no possible way Popavich drew this play up or even hinted to Horry to do this.   Honestly, if they would have called the obvious foul on Finley when he grabbed Nash near the basket then it never would have happened.  I think the refs should be suspended as well! (jk)

[Lurker]

1) I never blamed the loss on the officials.  In fact I firmly believe one or two shots going down and the whole issue would be moot.

2) My contention was that the game was called inconsistantly (same thing I bitched about in the Dallas series last year).  The amount of contact allowed to one team was not allowed by the other team.  Contact that was overlooked for 3 quarters were called in the 4th...but only against 1 team.  The whistles were clearly in favor of Phoenix.  THAT (the inconsistant refs) is what led to Horry's foul clearly out of frustration.  If you look closely at the replays Horry positions himself right at the sideline.  Nash...in his own words...tried to skate around him.  Horry then gave Nash a very solid hip check.  And most neutral observers that have posted all over the net have reached the same conclusion.

[Wolverine]

From a Phoenix fan's perspective ...

Horry *CLEARLY* did this to instigate a fight.  And his overall goal, simply put, was quite simple: take a few Suns with him in the process.

Skander is right on.  Under the current rules, what Horry did was *GENIUS*.  If he gets some of the Phoenix starters to go after him, especially those on the bench, then it was worth it.  Amare and Diaw are gone for a game.

But Joe is absolutely right when he wrote that a non-basketball situation now dictates the rest of a basketball series.  Suspensions and retaliation will become what this terrific series is remembered for.

Oh, and by the way, since the NBA has chosen to view things in black-and-white, Tim Duncan is ALSO gone.  He DID come off the bench earlier in the game (2nd quarter - I believe) when a couple of players were getting into it.  Which brings me back issue number one.

This automatic suspension for anyone leaving the bench is B.S.

Charles Barkley was spot-on last night when he said the rule was rediculous, because a player's FIRST INSTINCT is to protect his teammates.  When my team's superstar hits the floor in that situation, I'm out for blood.  But then again, there's a problem.

Amare and Diaw never actually  participated in any violent behavior.  They didn't throw a punch.  They didn't push anyone.  They didn't shove anyone.  They restrained themselves (or were restrained) before it escalated.

And you're going to suspend them a game FOR THAT?!?!  Ludicrous.  The same goes for Duncan.  Under the current guidelines, he SHOULD be suspended, even though he didn't throw a punch and nothing actually happened.

The NBA needs to do away with this rule.  It should be a judgement call.  If you leave the bench and get into a situation where contact is made with another player on the other team (a punch, a shove, bumping chests, ect) then that's one thing.  If you take a few steps and then restrain yourself and return, that's entirely another.

The only person who should be suspended is Horry.

[Joe Vancil]

Skander,

You're right about Stoudemire going out there for show rather than for confrontation.  But Iavaroni's throw of Stoudemire back wasn't an act.  It was a SERIOUS preventative.

Also, it wasn't any "measured reaction" by Stoudemire.  Stoudemire would be going to *ANY* fight not involving him merely for show.  That's simply his nature.  There are tons of players who go toward the fight with no intention of actually throwing a punch or fighting.

Tell me that that was Rasheed Wallace, and he's not just going there for show.

[msc]

It's official.  Two games for Horry and one game for both Amare and Diaw. 

This will obviously kill Phoenix for game 5.  It will be interesting to see how the refs call this game. 

I don't believe for one second that Horry masterminded this.  While Horry is probably the most savvy and experienced player remaining in the playoffs currently, I just don't think this was calculated on his part.  The way I saw it, he made an overzealous intentional foul in the heat of battle.  I don't for one second think that he stopped and thought "Okay, if I just hip-check Nash here, the bench will clear and I'll get several of their players suspended for leaving the bench".  Sorry, I'll give Horry credit for being a smart player, but I'm not about to give him credit for masterminding this event. 

 

[Reality]

What next msc, you're going to claim Manu did not invent coffee or chocolate?

I've mostly agreed with everyones takes.
One ommision i have seen, no one commenting on cherub Nashs blatant trip of Bowen.  I know, hard to feel sorry for Bowen but i'm not talking about touchy feely.  I'm talking about a very calculated cheapshot trip that potentially could have done just as much damage as Bob Horrys block into the boards.  Payback for the nard shot given by Bowen?  Yeah probably, yeah surely.

[Wolverine]

Well, this series is over.

Good luck to San Antonio and Utah in the next round.

And if you're San An, I hope Pat Burke doesn't kill one of your players (and you know he'll be out there in Game 5 since the Suns will miss two of their big men).