Author Topic: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?  (Read 4028 times)

Offline msc

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Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« on: December 27, 2006, 12:09:31 PM »
I've been hearing this rumor for the past several days in LA that the Clips and Kings are ready to swap Maggette and Artest.  Both teams feel they'll be better off and the salaries are almost identical, so the deal works. 

In today's LA times there's a small article indicating the deal is all but done and Baylor wants to have it completed prior to Friday before the Clips embark on their latest road trip.

Artests psychosis notwithstanding, I think this could be a good trade for the Clips since they are in dire need of improvement on the defensive end of the court.  Obviously D has never been Maggette's strength.  That said, throw Artest in to the mix with a disgruntled Sam I Am, a calm, cool, collected Brand and a young, impressionable Livingston and this deal could blow up in their faces. 

Not sure this is a good fit for the Kings, unless Artest has just been a total cancer in the locker room.  I haven't followed the Kings very closely so far this year, so I have no idea the locker room situation with Artest.  If he's mucking things up, it could be good for the Kings.  If not, I see Maggette as a one dimensional player who tends to hork up a lot of bad jumpers and 3's at inopportune times in the game, which always ticks off teammates.  On the plus side, he can get to the free throw line at will and when he's aggressive attacking the basket can be a significant scoring punch, something Sac really needs right now. 

Neither team has much to lose at this point, so any chemistry risks are worth it to both franchises.  This could actually be one of those rare "win-win" trades. 




« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 12:11:32 PM by msc »

Offline Reality

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2006, 12:17:43 PM »
Advantage Clippers.
Salavating...do this deal ASAP!

If Artest pouts and quits on Clippers have him banned from league.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2006, 12:30:31 PM »
I can't run with this until I hear from JoMaL.  SacBee has to have had SOMETHING on this situation.  Or maybe a reason why they would dump him off so quick.  From what I heard from him Artest has been great in the lockerroom/practice and has done everything the staff has asked for.

Just thinking of this off the top of my head...sounds like a good move for the Clippers if Ron Artest can hit the glass and stop some penetration on the perimeter.  They just cannot get the stops in the course of the game when they really need them.  Artest of course can make any teams defense that much better.

Now from the Kings standpoint I don't get it.  That is why I want to hear what JoMaL has to say.  To me it seems like they are getting a much shorter end of the stick.  Magette and Artest's offense is a wash but clearly Artest is 5x the defender that Magette is.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2006, 12:39:45 PM »
I had been working on a post regarding the Kings, and this deal, at the same time, but my time ran out before I could post it. Here it is:

So the SacTown honeymoon between the players, the players and their new coach, and fan support for the players and the coach, lasted all of twenty-plus games before the wheels came shooting off, hitting Petrie in the eye.

Bibby started to vocalize his displeasure in leaving the comfort of the old offense, as if that were to blame for his atrocious shooting of late. Well, that and his apparent distain for Artest hogging the ball too much late in games. Or his numerous injuries, the worst being some ligament issues with his shooting hand. Or that Brad Miller never showed up to play for any of the first twenty games of the year. Quite a hiatus for our starting center to take. At any rate, neither Bibby nor Miller have shown any kind of quality leadership needed to right the Kings floundering ship. Bibbly lost twenty pounds over the summer. Made him quicker and more agile, but somehow it also made him start to rush his shots, like if he doesn't fire up a clanker in micro-seconds, he won't get another chance. Thought he was a point guard who should be distributing the ball to more open (and accurate) shooters like Martin or Salmons? My bad. Bibby must think that his rep as an accurate shooting point guard allows him to take the majority of the shots, especially with the game on the line and him driving the lane with no outlet and no where to pass the ball except to opposing players. I admire his raw ability, but his brain is kind of wanting at times.

As for Brad Miller, anyone around here remember him? All Star center for several years, great passer from the post, accurate midrange jumper? No? Didn't think so. His game went on hiatus along with him. He has recovered from that torn ligament in his foot and came back to play at his reknown blazing speed and jumping ability once he returned. (Just wanted to see if you were paying attention). The Kings lack any kind of continuity from the front line. Miller, Thomas, and Abdur-Rahim can play against mediocre opposition like all stars. Put them up against real athletes with foot speed, and the Kings essentially have guards trying to stop centers on fast breaks every time. Note to the rest of the League. The Kings have absolutely no front line. None. Nada. Attack there, you will win. Guaranteed.

Artest took himself out of the last two games, claiming sore knees, NOT his chronically sore back, which he got apparently by driving his wife's much smaller car to and from Arco while his Hummer was being serviced. At any rate, the local hacks picked up on this transparent animosity that is growing between Bibby and Artest and said, and I quote, "One of them has to go". They also noticed that Artest's willingness to work with younger teammates and be available for the wags to banter with has waned considerably from the beginning of the season. Ron-Ron has not, exactly, returned to form, (being a complete A-hole, in other words) but he is clearly not as coherent as he had been. He is starting to sound a bit like a retard during interviews, saying the opposite thing in the same sentence, practically. 

The good news? John Salmons took advantage of Artest not traveling with the team to Denver and posted his first career triple double as the replacement starter against his old teammate, Allen Iverson. Now, the Salmons signing (five years at 25 million) was voted by some Internet toadies at the beginning of the year as being the worst off-season free agent signing. As I have observed his play this season, especially when he gets over thirty minutes of playing time, this observation seems to indicate that the person who said it has no credibility whatsoever. Salmons is a locker room stalwart, a coaches dream, works hard while nailing down any of the three smaller positions on the floor, plays great defense, and is starting to look like a bargain at only 25 million over five years.

To those who passed on signing him, like the Suns. Oops. To show how smart he is, he also reneged on going to Toronto before signing with SacTown. And you really have to wonder, now that Iverson is gone from Philadelphia, what would the Sixers be like if they had kept John?

Kevin Martin, most basketball fans have now discovered, is the real deal. After last season, the fan buzz in SacTown was that the Martin drafting was a huge bust, that we should get rid of him and be done with a bad choice. I imagine that these are the same fans who cried when Petrie traded Mitch Richmond for Chris Webber. At some point, they should be advised that Petrie is probably a tad more adept at creating a good basket ball team then they ever will be. After Bonzi Wells said no to a 36 million dollar deal with the Kings (the money saved mostly going to John Salmons), these same fans decried that Petrie should have upped the anti to keep him and God help the Kings if Kevin Martin were to be the replacement starting two-guard.

Now, I miss Wells, I really do, but at the expense of denying Kevin Martin a starting gig? Maybe it won't last, but for now, good choice Geoff.

And finally, to what the near future holds. The Kings have been approached by Elgin Baylor of the Clippers regarding a straight up trade of Artest for disgruntled guard/forward Corey Maggette, who dislikes Dunleavy. That would be a bit of a lopsided deal on the Kings part, as Artest, for all his baggage, is a better all-round player then Maggette, so the Clippers would need to sweeten the pot before Petrie goes for it. But something, if anything, will happen quickly on this, as Baylor has indicated he would like to get the deal done by Friday, or prior to the next Eastern trip for the Clippers next week.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 12:45:38 PM by JoMal »
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2006, 01:17:07 PM »
Wow!  I just got done reading that break down and I am suprised.  I had no idea there was any beef.  Obviously the team is not doing all that well but I did not think they would be at each other's throats so quick.  See this is why small market teams get the short end of the stick.  If this was a Nate Robinson/Curry situation or a Kobe/Bynum situation it would have been everywhere.  Since it is the Kings and Bibby/Artest I haven't see jack about it.

What does everyone think about Bibby/Artest?  Who should take more of the shots?  IMO if Artest is going to the rim and posting up then he should be getting the shots.  His job is not to pass first like Bibby's is.  Also, Bibby seems to be in love with his jumper and I'll take Artest in the post 9 times out of 10 in that situation ify ou are playing the % game.

As for Brad Miller....I kept him instead of Odom thinking they he would be able to really hold my team down (which ive been neglecting cuz internet at home is F'd up and yahoo is blocked at work) at the center position.  He went down, I put in Captain Kaman only to see him play well below his level.  When Miller came back I was so HAPPY, only to be let down because he is not the same Miller I've seen, at least numbers wise, since he came into this league.

Getting rid of Artest just to please Bibby sounds like a bad move.  Like JoMaL said though, Petrie knows alot more about building a team then I do so I guess I'll let it pan out before I say anything.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2006, 02:42:01 PM »
Westkoast, I am pretty much sick of hearing about Bibby's alleged problem with Artest and Artest's resurfacing of his same old issues. I think many here predicted that Artest would implode at some point and while I was very supportive of Ron after his arrival (Why not? He promised the Kings would make the playoffs and he delivered), he now seems content to announce he can't play 55 minutes before tip-off, so Musselman was not given enough warning to be able to activate back-up center Maurice Taylor in time for the game.

But the alledged rift between Bibby and Artest has been denounced by Artest as completely bogus. On Bibby's part, he is more upset that his name came up recently in trade talks with the Sixers about Iverson. This, after he told people at the end of last season the was thinking about opting out of the last year of his contract at the end of this season to test the free agent market. To prepare for his salary rush season, he lost twenty pounds, and, unfortunately for him, his jump shot. Now he just seems surly and snappy, like he was in a recent Utah Jazz game, played in Utah, where a fan apparently was riding
Bibby about his lack of accuracy, where upon Bibby torched the Jazz and led the Kings to victory.

Afterwards, all he would talk about was how the media was badmouthing him all the time and his shot was thisclose to returning. He even told Kevin Martin to shut up after Martin yelled across the locker room about Bibby playing like "Bibby" of old, saying something like, "Don't start playing to the media, Kevin".

Honestly, who needs this crap? If I were to make a move, I would move Bibby. For the point guard to take the majority of the shots would mean no one else can be relied on. Martin is shooting over 50% and for a shooting guard, who shoots plenty of three's, that is worth some padding of the assists of any point guard worth his salt. Artest is terrible from 15 feet out, but unstoppable inside the key. UNSTOPPABLE!!!!!. Could a point guard who actually is interested in his team winning utilize a force inside the paint and a terrific outside shooter - both of whom can get to the line nearly ten times a game - so his team could compete with more athletic squads?

Apparently not. What did Bibby complain to Musselman about - and got, BTW - was a return to the old system of offense that focused more on HIM. A system where he, Bibby, gets those shots off those Miller screens. Where he, Bibby, drives the lane late in games to get the foul call, but instead he now gets hammered so he loses the ball or shoots an impossible-to-make shot that gets taken back the other way while Mike is complaining he got fouled at the other end.

Great leadership qualities, there, Mike.

As for Miller, he looks slower then ever. But lately he has shown some life. His improving play is, however, just not expected for, say, two games in a row.

Artest needs to leave the outside shooting to Martin, Salmon, and Bibby, in that order. Musselman needs to stress plays be run for Martin, Artest, Salmons, Miller, Bibby, and whomever is struggling to maintain the PF position at the time, in that order. Until Bibby proves he can jack up a long ball with at least a forty percent chance of going through the net, he should just run the offense and try to get his teammates shots. His late-game decision-making is horrible of late.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2006, 04:44:22 PM »
Westkoast, I am pretty much sick of hearing about Bibby's alleged problem with Artest and Artest's resurfacing of his same old issues. I think many here predicted that Artest would implode at some point and while I was very supportive of Ron after his arrival (Why not? He promised the Kings would make the playoffs and he delivered), he now seems content to announce he can't play 55 minutes before tip-off, so Musselman was not given enough warning to be able to activate back-up center Maurice Taylor in time for the game.

Sorry to keep bringing it up but it is news to me.  Honestly, I did not hear anything until you posted earlier this morning so I am very suprised and disapointed at the same time.  Sounds to me like Bibby is imploding and Artest is playing the typical pampered millionaire all-star game.

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But the alledged rift between Bibby and Artest has been denounced by Artest as completely bogus. On Bibby's part, he is more upset that his name came up recently in trade talks with the Sixers about Iverson. This, after he told people at the end of last season the was thinking about opting out of the last year of his contract at the end of this season to test the free agent market. To prepare for his salary rush season, he lost twenty pounds, and, unfortunately for him, his jump shot. Now he just seems surly and snappy, like he was in a recent Utah Jazz game, played in Utah, where a fan apparently was riding
Bibby about his lack of accuracy, where upon Bibby torched the Jazz and led the Kings to victory.

Were the Kings actually thinking of shopping Bibby or was that media generated?  I too would be a bit mad about trade talks BUT if he was saying he is leaning towards leaving the team to do what is best for him how could he get mad at the team doing what is best for them?

That Jazz game is few and far between though.  Bibby can shoot but he is not a scorer.  Never has been and he never will be.  I don't care how many plays are ran for him, he will never be a bonafide scorer in this league.  That just is not his game.

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Afterwards, all he would talk about was how the media was badmouthing him all the time and his shot was thisclose to returning. He even told Kevin Martin to shut up after Martin yelled across the locker room about Bibby playing like "Bibby" of old, saying something like, "Don't start playing to the media, Kevin".

Was he trying to compliment him?  Cuz in Bibby's defense that sounds kind of like a backhanded compliment.  I don't think he should have bit his head off in front of the media though.

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Honestly, who needs this crap? If I were to make a move, I would move Bibby. For the point guard to take the majority of the shots would mean no one else can be relied on. Martin is shooting over 50% and for a shooting guard, who shoots plenty of three's, that is worth some padding of the assists of any point guard worth his salt. Artest is terrible from 15 feet out, but unstoppable inside the key. UNSTOPPABLE!!!!!. Could a point guard who actually is interested in his team winning utilize a force inside the paint and a terrific outside shooter - both of whom can get to the line nearly ten times a game - so his team could compete with more athletic squads?

Certainly not the player who is shooting 50% from the field and torching teams.

If Artest is posting up he should be getting a majority of the shots at the end of the game.  The guy is too strong for anyone in the post at his position and entirely too fast for another team to use a stronger, bigger guy.  Although I thought Artest's mid range game was improving?  Guess not.

Bibby has plenty of guys to pass the ball to.  Miller in the post or from the top of the key.  Artest in the post.  Martin....well just about anywhere right now.



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Artest needs to leave the outside shooting to Martin, Salmon, and Bibby, in that order. Musselman needs to stress plays be run for Martin, Artest, Salmons, Miller, Bibby, and whomever is struggling to maintain the PF position at the time, in that order. Until Bibby proves he can jack up a long ball with at least a forty percent chance of going through the net, he should just run the offense and try to get his teammates shots. His late-game decision-making is horrible of late.

Who would you replace Bibby with though?  Andre Miller would be nice to have as he is more pass first.  I can't think of any other off the top of my head that the Kings would be able to really go after.

Now if this deal goes through though it is going to be just as bad, if not worse.  Magette believes more then Ron Artest that he is a major scoring threat.  Plus he is not even half as good as Artest on the block.  To me this sounds more and more like a bad situation if the Kings do in fact trade Artest to apease Bibby.  Especially for Corey Magette of all players.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2006, 05:07:55 PM »
Most of the trade talk regarding Artest for Maggette seems to be coming from the Clippers and not so much from the Kings. Knowing Petrie, which is pretty hard to do - no body can predict his mind concerning trades - I would venture he would not trade Artest for Maggette straight up. There would need to be more to it.

As for trading Bibby, well, the Kings are trying to groom Garcia and Price for the point guard spot, but neither is quite ready. Same goes for Douby, the King's #1 draft choice this season. However, John Salmon seems to be able to do quite a bit running the point. He also is a great defender, unlike the others. But he would leave a gapping hole off the bench.

If Bibby gets traded, the Kings could desparately use a front line player in return, not another swing man like Maggette. Abdur-Rahim and Kenny Thomas are not filling the need at PF. Neither is consistent enough, though SAR is decent. The problem is that Thomas raises a fit every time he gets benched for SAR for any length of time, and the two kind of resent each other. The salaries of both are prohibitively high to get much trade interest from other teams either, considering the flaws in each of their games.

What seems glaringly apparent from watching this group for a quarter of the season is the lack of team chemistry. Unlike Kings' squads of old, you can't picture these guys hanging out with one another after games. Musselman, as far as coaching this team goes, is actually proving to be a great in-game coach, unlike Adelman, who never varied from the game plan. Eric is willing to change things on a whim and often makes the right choice on who should be on the court. This is really evident if either Artest or Bibby is NOT on the court at the same time. Then the ball movement is much more apparent, especially with Salmon running the team. Salmon still plays for the team, not himself.

What was the deal with him and Iverson and/or the coaching/management in Philadelphia? It seems hard to imagine they could not find a place for Salmon on that team.

But then, they kept telling Matt Barnes he wasn't playing, while he was there, because he did not understand the offense.

The Offense? Like, make sure Iverson had the ball at all times and stay out of his way except to pick up garbage baskets? THAT offense? And there was Barnes, possibly the best garbage player they have had in the last ten years sitting at the end of the bench?

Last night - Barnes gets 25, mostly on three pointers, as the Warriors blitz the Sixers. This, after he torched the Kings (another ex-team of his) for 31 points in a home win. At least he played for the Kings.   
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2006, 05:32:42 PM »
Most of the trade talk regarding Artest for Maggette seems to be coming from the Clippers and not so much from the Kings. Knowing Petrie, which is pretty hard to do - no body can predict his mind concerning trades - I would venture he would not trade Artest for Maggette straight up. There would need to be more to it.

What else could they get though.  The salaries are pretty darn close with not enough room to do anything but throw in cash or maybe a pick!?  Where is Ziggy, he knows the ins and outs of these kinds of things.

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If Bibby gets traded, the Kings could desparately use a front line player in return, not another swing man like Maggette. Abdur-Rahim and Kenny Thomas are not filling the need at PF. Neither is consistent enough, though SAR is decent. The problem is that Thomas raises a fit every time he gets benched for SAR for any length of time, and the two kind of resent each other. The salaries of both are prohibitively high to get much trade interest from other teams either, considering the flaws in each of their games. 

That sucks they resent each other.  I guess in a perfect situation they would be motivated to play as hard as they possibly can when they do get in to try to get more minutes.

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What seems glaringly apparent from watching this group for a quarter of the season is the lack of team chemistry. Unlike Kings' squads of old, you can't picture these guys hanging out with one another after games. Musselman, as far as coaching this team goes, is actually proving to be a great in-game coach, unlike Adelman, who never varied from the game plan. Eric is willing to change things on a whim and often makes the right choice on who should be on the court. This is really evident if either Artest or Bibby is NOT on the court at the same time. Then the ball movement is much more apparent, especially with Salmon running the team. Salmon still plays for the team, not himself.

I made a comment along these lines after I watched the Lakers/Kings play earlier this year.  Although I said the offense doesn't look as fluid.  I guess it actually wasn't the offense but the players themselves.  They did look very much out of sync but then again that was the very very start of this season.

So the Musselman expierment...not so bad, aside from the internal problems?  I thought it was a HUGE mistake to remove Adleman because they couldn't bounce the Spurs in the first round.

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What was the deal with him and Iverson and/or the coaching/management in Philadelphia? It seems hard to imagine they could not find a place for Salmon on that team.
 

Maybe Rick or DB knows.  Sometimes a change brings out other things in players.  Especially if they are asked to play a different role that suits them much better.



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The Offense? Like, make sure Iverson had the ball at all times and stay out of his way except to pick up garbage baskets? THAT offense? And there was Barnes, possibly the best garbage player they have had in the last ten years sitting at the end of the bench?

Last night - Barnes gets 25, mostly on three pointers, as the Warriors blitz the Sixers. This, after he torched the Kings (another ex-team of his) for 31 points in a home win. At least he played for the Kings.   

LOL!! Isn't the offense let Iverson create and get to a spot to recieve a drive and kick?!

Hay maybe you guys want Early Boykins in place of Bibby?  8)
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2006, 06:34:03 PM »
Salmons was lost in Philly.  It was clear that he could play, but with Iverson in, there really wasn't a place for Salmons.  He was the odd man out between him Igoudala and Willie Green.  Now that Iverson is gone, the Sixer probably wish they had Salmons still.

Matt Barnes- I love how he stuck it to the Sixers last night.  Face it, the Sixers have had a lot of talent pass through their hands- players that were clear NBA talent, but not in the top 5 at their positon.  Tim Thomas, Larry Hughes, Kenny Thomas, Barnes, Eric Snow...  I don't object to the Sixers trading them, but for not improving through the trades they made.

Some of this is on Cheeks.  I don't understand what he's trying to do with this team.  They seem to lack a vision of who they are - or what their strategy for winning games should be.  One thing that is clear is that they haven't found themselves.  They seem to be a bunch of guys without any strong leadership or continuity.  AI was always an entity unto himself, but right now Philly isn't a team, as much as it is a collection of players.  They aren't particularly good at anything- and have no edge to exploit against other teams.

I don't know what realistic expectations should be for the Sixers, but I do believe that Cheeks is not getting as much out of them as he could.  I wonder how much Brown will get involved now with the team.  I'd bet that the reason AI went to Denver is because Brown knows George Karl from his Carolina days. 

Offline JoMal

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2006, 07:35:35 PM »
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What else could they get though.  The salaries are pretty darn close with not enough room to do anything but throw in cash or maybe a pick!?  Where is Ziggy, he knows the ins and outs of these kinds of things.

A #1 pick.

That would make the most sense, but I am not holding my breath. Next year's draft, from what I have heard, is fairly deep, but what the Kings need, instead of two first round picks, would be to package them to move up in the draft and get just one player who could be labelled 'franchise'.

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That sucks they resent each other.  I guess in a perfect situation they would be motivated to play as hard as they possibly can when they do get in to try to get more minutes.

This is clearly the weakest part of the Kings. Neither Thomas nor SAR can compete with the Duncan's, Stoudamire's, Odom's, or Boozer's, for that matter, in the League.   

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I made a comment along these lines after I watched the Lakers/Kings play earlier this year.  Although I said the offense doesn't look as fluid.  I guess it actually wasn't the offense but the players themselves.  They did look very much out of sync but then again that was the very very start of this season.

While it really is too soon to say that the chemistry issue can never be resolved, Bibby vocalized his resentment in the changes Musselmen was trying to impliment on offense early in the year. Artest apparently had no problem with it, except he took it as carte blanche to hoist up outside shots rather then back down weaker foes in the paint. A bit of a coaching issue, to say the least, regarding Ron-Ron not implimenting the offense in the manner that Musselman asked him to, though it is not like Ron dislikes Eric - in fact, he seems to like him just fine. He just is not doing what he should be doing. Bibby just appears angry all the time, especially lately when the blame for the recent losses are being laid at his doorstep the most.

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So the Musselman expierment...not so bad, aside from the internal problems?  I thought it was a HUGE mistake to remove Adleman because they couldn't bounce the Spurs in the first round.

Adelman was removed because....<sigh>.... the Maloofs did not like it that Rick was sort of aloof and did not play the Vegas smootching game the way they wanted him to. Apparently, just going out there and coaching was not all they expect from the coach of the Kings - he needs to have some showmanship in his portfolio, which Musselman has. This is sales, to the Maloofs, where a Pat Riley/Phil Jackson type of clone coach would be the ideal to Gavin and Joe. Fortunately, they let Geoff Petrie have the final say in who replaced Adelman and given time, Musselman and his very young coaching staff may be the right fit....once some front line players who can compete with the above mentioned talent.   

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Maybe Rick or DB knows.  Sometimes a change brings out other things in players.  Especially if they are asked to play a different role that suits them much better.

That could be true, but Salmons is particularly versatile in three different positions, and he could have been a useful counterpart playing along side Iverson. But I can't judge that situation from afar. 

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Hay maybe you guys want Early Boykins in place of Bibby?

The line forming for THAT trade is getting pretty deep, I see.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2006, 07:42:57 PM »
Salmons was lost in Philly.  It was clear that he could play, but with Iverson in, there really wasn't a place for Salmons.  He was the odd man out between him Igoudala and Willie Green.  Now that Iverson is gone, the Sixer probably wish they had Salmons still.

Matt Barnes- I love how he stuck it to the Sixers last night.  Face it, the Sixers have had a lot of talent pass through their hands- players that were clear NBA talent, but not in the top 5 at their positon.  Tim Thomas, Larry Hughes, Kenny Thomas, Barnes, Eric Snow...  I don't object to the Sixers trading them, but for not improving through the trades they made.

Some of this is on Cheeks.  I don't understand what he's trying to do with this team.  They seem to lack a vision of who they are - or what their strategy for winning games should be.  One thing that is clear is that they haven't found themselves.  They seem to be a bunch of guys without any strong leadership or continuity.  AI was always an entity unto himself, but right now Philly isn't a team, as much as it is a collection of players.  They aren't particularly good at anything- and have no edge to exploit against other teams.

I don't know what realistic expectations should be for the Sixers, but I do believe that Cheeks is not getting as much out of them as he could.  I wonder how much Brown will get involved now with the team.  I'd bet that the reason AI went to Denver is because Brown knows George Karl from his Carolina days. 

Could be the Sixers are already planning for the draft and free agent signings in the off-season. Every team needs those types of guys like Barnes and Salmon, who fill a specific need.... or several, like John Salmons seems to be able to do.

I thought Matt Barnes was a tremendous energy guy. Allot like Maurice Evans was with the Kings, and who now is doing that odd work with the Lakers. Guys like this will never be all stars in the League, but any team lucky enough to have one or two of them will always have a very strong bench.

Given starters' minutes, Salmons and Barnes are elevating their games. Neither had these types of opportunities in the previous places they worked and now, given the chance, they are showing those old teams something.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2006, 08:15:02 PM »
Quote
Salmons is a locker room stalwart, a coaches dream, works hard while nailing down any of the three smaller positions on the floor, plays great defense, and is starting to look like a bargain at only 25 million over five years.


He's in a honeymoon period.

He will complain.  Complain about the coach when he's not getting the minutes.  Complain about his teammates when he's not getting his shots.  He did so for years.  About Brown.  About O'Brien.  About Cheeks.  About Iverson.  not exactly a lockerroom stalwart.  Oh, sure, he is now, but this is the honeymoon.

His defense can be solid, when he's motivated.  his offense has some skill, but he's nothing special.  He can pass, but he tends to drive with his head down.  He can drive, but he can't finish.  It's a pull-up or nothing.  he can shoot, but never consistently.

he's a nice bench player.  He'll get exposed as a starter over time.  And he's certainly not a lockerroom stalwart.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 08:31:48 PM by Derek Bodner »

Offline westkoast

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 11:36:26 AM »
Salmons was lost in Philly.  It was clear that he could play, but with Iverson in, there really wasn't a place for Salmons.  He was the odd man out between him Igoudala and Willie Green.  Now that Iverson is gone, the Sixer probably wish they had Salmons still.

Matt Barnes- I love how he stuck it to the Sixers last night.  Face it, the Sixers have had a lot of talent pass through their hands- players that were clear NBA talent, but not in the top 5 at their positon.  Tim Thomas, Larry Hughes, Kenny Thomas, Barnes, Eric Snow...  I don't object to the Sixers trading them, but for not improving through the trades they made.

Some of this is on Cheeks.  I don't understand what he's trying to do with this team.  They seem to lack a vision of who they are - or what their strategy for winning games should be.  One thing that is clear is that they haven't found themselves.  They seem to be a bunch of guys without any strong leadership or continuity.  AI was always an entity unto himself, but right now Philly isn't a team, as much as it is a collection of players.  They aren't particularly good at anything- and have no edge to exploit against other teams.

I don't know what realistic expectations should be for the Sixers, but I do believe that Cheeks is not getting as much out of them as he could.  I wonder how much Brown will get involved now with the team.  I'd bet that the reason AI went to Denver is because Brown knows George Karl from his Carolina days. 

Could be the Sixers are already planning for the draft and free agent signings in the off-season. Every team needs those types of guys like Barnes and Salmon, who fill a specific need.... or several, like John Salmons seems to be able to do.

I thought Matt Barnes was a tremendous energy guy. Allot like Maurice Evans was with the Kings, and who now is doing that odd work with the Lakers. Guys like this will never be all stars in the League, but any team lucky enough to have one or two of them will always have a very strong bench.

Given starters' minutes, Salmons and Barnes are elevating their games. Neither had these types of opportunities in the previous places they worked and now, given the chance, they are showing those old teams something.

Having one player who could play 2-3 positions is a huge boost.  Those guys are always underrated and undervalued by the faithfull of the team they play on.   Matt Hughes reminds me of that kind of player also.  If Jerry Sloan needs him to play tough d, score, rebound, bang bodies, anything he does it.

Kevin Martin for most improved player this year?  So far I would have to say he is by far the front runner.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Maggette for Artest trade ... a done deal?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 12:13:22 PM »
Hmmm.

Salmons complained a lot in Philly, huh? Was he justified, or just in the mood to complain? Because he is getting a bit more playing time in Sacramento, backing up three positions and filling in for Martin or Artest when they are out, he does not seem to be in a position to feel underused, and as Musselman trusts him more and more, his playing time won't be dwindling any time soon either.

So why was he so disgruntled with the Sixers? When he was asked if he was anticipating playing the Sixers before last nights' game, John took the high road and did not disparage his former team in any way, but simply alluded to his new team getting a win.

As for Kevin Martin, he certainly will get some attention for the Most Improved Player award at the end of the year if he keeps this up. Last night, he was throwing up in the fourth quarter, sitting on the bench. He had been throwing up since Christmas Day because of the flu, which sidelined Sharif Abdur-Rahim for yesterday's game as well. He still put up 18 points. He does have such an unorthodox shot, though, where he cocks his arms at his sides and hoists up the shot. You would think it would get blocked more often, but he still gets it off.

We in SacTown can thank Pete Carril, once again, for Kevin Martin's development. Once a shy kid who lacked the confidence that he could perform at the NBA level, Coachy worked with him constantly and built up Martin's faith in his shot and his game. Interestingly, Carril did not try to change the way Martin shot the ball, just how he managed to get open to take it. Martin still calls Coachy often, usually right after games, to discuss the game with him.

You know, it is assistant coaches like Pete Carill who do more work behind the scenes, working individually with players, who often go unnoticed and unappreciated for how often they get these players ready to play at the NBA level. The Kings knew they had Carill for a limited time, because of his age and health, and now Carill is back home in New Jersey after his close friend Rick Adelman was let go, but boy, I sure wish there was a way to clone his knowledge into one of these young guys Musselman hired as assistant coaches.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."