Author Topic: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?  (Read 2281 times)

Offline WayOutWest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7411
    • View Profile
Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« on: December 19, 2006, 10:54:42 PM »
I've been in Phoenix since Friday and it's Suns-mania around here.  They are doing some really good things on the court, Amare and Diaw are looking more and more like their old selves.  Raja is playing solid, Barbosa is having a break out year and Marion continues to put up all star numbers.  At the help is Nash, it seems that everyone is expecting the drop off that doesn't seem to come.  They are amazing on offense but their defense seems non-existant at times.  The 80's Lakers relied on scoring alot but they always could hunker down and play great defense in short spurts when needed, their trap D got them out of many a tight game.  The Suns just don't seem interested in defense, they just want the ball back for offense.

I'm watching the Suns/Raptors game as I type and Barbosa is just opening up his game a ton from previous years.  I wonder if the Suns could run by everyone on their way to a title.  IMO only the Spurs can derail this juggernaught, Mavs will get outscored and the Lakers will not be able to keep up.  It's a shame that the big three in the league are all out west and will have to take each other out before facing the EC champ.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Reality

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8738
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 12:34:02 AM »
How did Toronto #1 overall Andrea Bargnani look?

If facsimilie of 2005 takes place, same result.
Pop-A-Cement has been playing TallBall with Dunkan & Francisco Elson in at the same time.  10-0 result.  At times the Spurs have thrown a three headed monster in the form of Duncan-Elson-Fabs into the mix.  I don't have to tell you the resulting terror for the opponent.

Seriously tho if Popavich stays tall and the Big Three stay healthy (GNob and Parker) it looks like 2005 all over again.  Pops affair with Michael Finley continues ???, not sure if he would let a title come between he and Finley.

You said Phx looked uninterested in playing D.  Same result.  We've already established best record reg season more often then not does not equal title. 

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 10:20:31 AM »
IMO the Suns are as much championship calibre as they were 2 seasons ago.  They have a solid team built around Nash who is having a career year.  They should definately finish with a top 3 record in the West unless injuries take out Nash.

The 15 game winning streak is impressive.  Any team in the NBA that wins 15 in a row shows a combination of talent, teamwork and mental preparedness.  However you also have to look at the teams they played during the streak...

Warriors, Hornets, Nets, Blazers, Rockets, Bucks, Kings, Nets, Celtics, Bobcats, Magic, Heat, Warriors, Kings, Raptors.

Not exactly the cream of the NBA.  As of today only the Rockets & Magic have winning records.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline Joe Vancil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2208
    • ICQ Messenger - 236778608
    • MSN Messenger - joev5638@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - GenghisThePBear
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - joev5638
    • View Profile
    • http://www.joev.com
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2006, 10:36:27 AM »
Phoenix is a legit threat.  

Phoenix's offense isn't susceptible to many methods a coach would use to counteract it.  If you slow the game to a crawl, it only hurts your team, because Phoenix has great ball-movement.  And, Phoenix's bad defense is exactly what makes it next-to-impossible to slow the game to a crawl...what are you going to do, pass up the easy lay-up to kill clock in the first quarter?  Oops...we took the lay-up, and now Phoenix is off-and-running.

You could stall the 80's Laker's fast break by slowing the game down, because LA played good defense and didn't offer tempting, all-too-easy shots.  Won't work against Phoenix.

You could press, which, of course, can actually work against you and speed the game up.  Phoenix has Diaw as the X-factor here.  With Nash, Barbosa, Diaw, and Bell in a pinch, Phoenix isn't very susceptible to a press or a trap.

You could try to defense Phoenix, slow its offense, and hope your offense is better.  It won't be.  Teams like Utah, with their precision offense, might even shoot a higher percentage, but Phoenix will ultimately triumph because of just how many three-pointers they make...and how many different people can make them.

In my opinion, there is one way to beat Phoenix:

1)  Keep the ball in Nash's hands.  If Nash can score 50, so be it, but you decide which 50 those are.  They're 50 points on three-pointers and free throws.  50...even 60 points...but no more than 5 assists.  Even if you have to foul him, he doesn't get to PASS.

2)  While keeping the ball in Nash's hands, play a BIG defender on him.  And I don't mean just big as in taller - I mean big as in "I'm going to knock you on you @$$ if you come anywhere near the lane.  And I'm going to do it before you shoot or pass."  In other words, BEAT NASH UP.  He's a tough little guy, but tough little guys who go through the lane should get beat up a lot more than Nash does.  Single-cover Nash.  Heck, back off of him a bit on the outside.  And if he wants to get familiar with the lane, give him a good CLOSE look at it.  Even if Nash keeps bouncing back like Iverson does, he won't do it through a seven game series at the same level as the Nash that makes Phoenix a devastating offensive team.  And the slower he gets, the bigger the load he has to carry.

You see, there's nothing more annoying to a teammate than a point guard who takes all the shots - whether or not they're good shots quickly becomes irrelevant.  If you want to upset Phoenix's chemistry, turn Steve Nash into Stephon Marbury.  And when he tries to do that, make it painful for him.  Doing that, you disintegrate the Suns' chemistry twice - you take Nash away from his game, and you take Nash's teammates away from their mindset of "share the ball."  Turn a point guard against his teammates, and you've got an ineffective point guard regardless of who that point guard is.  And if you slow Nash down a bit in the process, more's the better.

Joe

-----------
Support your right to keep and arm bears!
Club (baby) seals, not sandwiches!

Offline westkoast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8624
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 11:22:39 AM »
I do think it is possible.  Never say never right?   They have influenced the league to try to play their kind of basketball.  More teams want to run and score.  The league has put in rules that push in that direction.  Right now The Suns are the best at playing like that.  If that is the future of the league, then why wouldn't they be considered to win a championship? 

Defense wins championships.  When it comes to battling, the stops are what really make the difference.  That stands for the time being.  If more teams continue to take a more offensive minded approach in personel and in their game plans then that may shift.  If it does I think the Suns have a better chance then anyone in the near future.

Dallas learned last year what alot of offense and poor defense does to you.  As did the Suns.  IMO it is hard to stay consistantly scoring points like that for 82+ games with teams that still focus more in on defense or have better defenders.
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com

Offline JoMal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
    • View Profile
    • http://
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2006, 12:29:31 PM »
Their lack of defense that was evident in years past does not seem to be a factor so far this year. In their mind, the best defense is a terrific transition offense. It puts a ton of pressure on the opposing team NOT to miss their shots, knowing what to expect at the other end of the court.

Can they threaten the Spurs and Mavs? A bigger question would be, do those two teams scare the Suns? At this point, I would think there would be some concern on their part, matching the uptempo of the Suns.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Reality

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8738
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 12:38:37 PM »
Phhhhssssh.
Fastest guy in league Tony Parker.
Slashing lightning bolt Manu GNob.
Brent Shaggy Barry taking three hops to get from foul line to foul line.
Frankie Olson a big man who can run.
Tim Du- okay scratch that one.

2005 all over again.  Only guy who can slow down the Spurs is Popavich.

Offline Wolverine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
    • AOL Instant Messenger - CardsMizzou
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 04:09:06 PM »
I think the Suns have a shot, but there are two reasons, in my opinion, for concern if you're a Suns fan (which I happen to be).

First, when a team shoots as many threes as Phoenix does - and relies on the shot as much as Phoenix does - any bad shooting night can cost you a game.  It's magnified in Phoenix because, as so many have pointed out, the team seems disinterested on the defensive side of the ball.  Since that's the case, you had better perform on offense.  In a playoff series, two or more subpar shooting games and the series is down the toilet.

Secondly - and this is often a BIG part of the Suns' problem - if the team is shooting poorly or not performing well on offense, frequently there's a feeling among the players of "Okay, Steve, save our ass."  And from some of the games I've watched, it happens more often than people think.  The Suns stop cutting and running, and stand around with a stick up their collective ass watching Nash dribble around.  So Nash runs around looking to create and dish, and his teammates have the "Wow, this guy's awesome/I hope he can carry us" look on their faces.

I think the Suns are set for a deep run in the playoffs - especially with Amare getting back to his 2004-05 days, and Boris finally playing like he did last year.  Quite frankly, I think it's the most talented squad they've had in years.

But with this team and the problems that stem from their attitude and style of play, they could be bounced in the first round.
This message was brought to you by Diet Dr. Pepper.  It tastes more like regular Dr. Pepper.

Cards' 2010 regular season record: 50-41

Offline westkoast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8624
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2006, 11:54:41 AM »
I think the Suns have a shot, but there are two reasons, in my opinion, for concern if you're a Suns fan (which I happen to be).

First, when a team shoots as many threes as Phoenix does - and relies on the shot as much as Phoenix does - any bad shooting night can cost you a game.  It's magnified in Phoenix because, as so many have pointed out, the team seems disinterested on the defensive side of the ball.  Since that's the case, you had better perform on offense.  In a playoff series, two or more subpar shooting games and the series is down the toilet.


Obviously what they are doing is working and working VERY well.  My only question is why don't they pound the ball a little bit more in the half court set?  Amare can score on 90% of the players who guard him in the post with his back to the basket.  At least then you get a little bit more consistant shots.  You can only go 100 mph on every play for so long.  Lucky for them they have been able to keep Nash' mpg from being outrageous.

If they had a Rodman type player on the team they would be very scary.  One guy who  can strickly focus in on tough defense and rebounds with a very quick outlet.  The one reason I do not think some of the top teams in the league are scared of them is because they have not proven they can beat them yet for one.  For two, the top teams in the league have bigger players that seem to cause PHX problems if and when the game slows down.
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2006, 01:56:47 PM »
Yes.

Everything they are this year, they were last year and got very deep into the playoffs without Amare.  This year they have him back, and the rest of the west won't be able to handle it.  They are the first team I can recall that can win by outscoring any opponent they face.  They live and win with the outside shot - something that's suppossed to be impossible, but not for them.

The Suns were as good or better than the Spurs last year.  Only Dallas could stop them, because they could score as many as Phoenix and play defense.  Amare will be the difference maker there, and get them by the Mavericks - Amare gives them that inside presence so they don't have to rely on the outside shooting all the time.

IMO, barring injury this is the Sun's year.  I liked Joe's analysis of how to beat them, but neither SA nor Dallas has the players to harrass Nash like that.

The real question is who can stop them and slow them down?  Only Dallas was able to do that last year, and this year they have Amare too.

Offline westkoast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8624
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2006, 02:22:16 PM »


The real question is who can stop them and slow them down?  Only Dallas was able to do that last year, and this year they have Amare too.

Not falling into the trap of playing their brand of basketball.  The Lakers could have beat them but fell into that trap and lost.  They used sized, strength, and post presence to push it to 7.  The Clippers also fell into the trap of playing their fast, up tempo run and gun game only to see the same fate as their Staples roomies.  When they did win it was because of the Clippers bigger players roughing them up and making sure there was not long rebounds that gave them a chance to run.  Dallas also fell into this but partially because they do not have much of a post up game.   I do not think Amare will be able to defend the post and still play at a super high level on the other side of the court.  There is only so much he can do, especially with the knee not 100% (it wont be 100% for the entire year I don't believe)

The other thing would be to give Nash all the open shots he wants.  Even if he makes them all it seems to slow down the other players.  IMO it is impossible to stop his dribble penetration but it is not impossible to stop those easy dishes that get Marion, Amare, Barbossa, and Bell pumped up.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 02:24:42 PM by westkoast »
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2006, 02:33:17 PM »
Well, Rick, SA beat Phoenix 3 of 4 games last year.  The only loss coming on the second night of a back-to-back (Spurs only true weakness the past couple seasons).

Also the Spurs beat the Suns in the playoffs 2 years ago.  The Spurs are very good at closing down Phoenix' transition game.  Maybe you haven't noticed but the Spurs have arguably the best transition defense in the league.  So I am not quite sure where you get this " Suns were as good or better than the Spurs last year".

This sort of leads into another little observation:  the media is falling all over themselves with the first the Mavs win streak and now the Suns streak.  But through it all the traditionally slow starting Spurs lead the league in record and scoring differential.  These "boring" Spurs are 8th in the league in scoring, 4th in FG%, 1st in 3pt% and still playing their tough defense.  Just wait until Pop tightens up his rotation as he normally does in Feb.


There is a reason that after the AI trade that the media asks if Denver has joined the Suns, Mavs & Spurs as the league's elite.  Because those 3 teams are all championship calibre teams that will provide 2 series of extremely high quality basketball this postseason.  The #1 seed in the west will be very important since the 2-3 matchup in the 2nd round will be dangerous.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2006, 03:06:42 PM »
The Spurs lost to the Mavs in last year's playoffs. They and the Suns never met.  I would have expected the Spurs to best the Suns last year, with no Amare, Phoenix was overmatched on the inside, and the Spurs can play defense.  This year, with Amare, I think Phoenix has moved ahead of both the Mavs and the Spurs.  We shall see.

As long as there are no injuries-  I see Phoenix able to take the WC title.

AI will make a difference in Denver, but whether it moves them up enough to Challenge SA, Dallas or Phoenix is open to question.  Knowing how George Karl loves offense, I expect to see Denver playing a high-scoring half-court game with AI breaking down defenses and Carmello getting move room to operate.  It's really a matter of how good Denver's role players are- if Camby and Nene can get healthy enough they may have a shot- they need to outrebound their opponents, and when they get to SA, that will be very hard to do.

They will not be a team that others will want to draw in the first round.

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2006, 03:27:22 PM »
Rick...you missed the point.

Spurs beat Suns in playoffs 2 years ago...with Nash, Amare, Marion, etc.

Spurs beat Suns 3 of 4 last year and held the Suns below their scoring average.

The Suns have not proved on the court that they are better than the Spurs...not with Amare and definately not without him.  Your comment was that the Suns were better than the Spurs LAST year.  My post was FACTS to prove you wrong.

I am glad that you think the Suns have moved past the Spurs & Mavs. But I think that those 3 teams are dead even and in a 7 game series any one of them could come out on top.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline westkoast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8624
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Are the Suns chapionship caliber?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2006, 04:28:50 PM »
Rick...you missed the point.

Spurs beat Suns in playoffs 2 years ago...with Nash, Amare, Marion, etc.

Spurs beat Suns 3 of 4 last year and held the Suns below their scoring average.

The Suns have not proved on the court that they are better than the Spurs...not with Amare and definately not without him.  Your comment was that the Suns were better than the Spurs LAST year.  My post was FACTS to prove you wrong.

I am glad that you think the Suns have moved past the Spurs & Mavs. But I think that those 3 teams are dead even and in a 7 game series any one of them could come out on top.

IMO until PHX proves otherwise they are not better then SA/Dallas.  They have been unable to beat them in the playoffs.  Sure in the regular season they play awesome but for a team to be the best in the league they need to get it done when it counts.  For as good as PHX is in the regular season their brand of ball is not the kind that gets it done in the playoffs so far.  Maybe that will change, I don't know.

Did everyone forget that Tim Duncan was way less then 100% year?!
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com