Author Topic: Question about Islam  (Read 7223 times)

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2006, 04:00:28 PM »
Quote
Quote
Our whole system of mathematics, including the concept of Zero and algebra come from the muslims.
I disagree, much like I disagree with the Discovery of America.  America was already here, just like zero, before any "round eye" set his stinking-white-rat infested-gold crazy foot on dry land.
I disagree also...but not for the same reasons.  

Those are Arabic concepts that were "discovered" before Mohammed defined the Muslim religion.  In fact they were "discovered" before Christ so also predate the whole Christian religion.

Although to follow through on Rick's premise.  We should thank Christians for gravity and the fact that the planets revolve around the sun.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 04:04:15 PM by Lurker »
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline JoMal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
    • View Profile
    • http://
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2006, 04:05:05 PM »
Who said "Man's most imperative discovery has been religion, because it directs humanity's attention away from more important issues and allows economic complexes the freedom to exploit at will".
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
    • View Profile
    • http://
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2006, 04:15:01 PM »
Quote
Although to follow through on Rick's premise.  We should thank Christians for gravity and the fact that the planets revolve around the sun.
The "discoverers" of both of which were highly influenced, one way or the other, by their fellow Christians at the time.

Newton was fascinated by alchemy, at the time closely related to chemistry. He spent much of his life "seeking to unravel the meaning that he hoped was hidden in alchemical obscurity and mysticism. He sought understanding of the nature and structure of all matter, formed from the "solid, massy, hard, impenetrable, movable particles" that he believed God had created."

Galileo got himself threatened with excommunication by the Church for his discoveries in astrology.    
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Guest

  • Guest
Question about Islam
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2006, 04:30:37 PM »
Quote
I already said I didn't think that muslims were inherently violent, but it is a FACT that everywhere a muslim country borders a non-muslim country there is or has been violence.  

 
can’t we also say everywhere a christian county borders a non-christian county there has been violence

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2006, 04:41:30 PM »
Quote
Quote
Although to follow through on Rick's premise.  We should thank Christians for gravity and the fact that the planets revolve around the sun.
The "discoverers" of both of which were highly influenced, one way or the other, by their fellow Christians at the time.

Newton was fascinated by alchemy, at the time closely related to chemistry. He spent much of his life "seeking to unravel the meaning that he hoped was hidden in alchemical obscurity and mysticism. He sought understanding of the nature and structure of all matter, formed from the "solid, massy, hard, impenetrable, movable particles" that he believed God had created."

Galileo got himself threatened with excommunication by the Church for his discoveries in astrology.
I believe it was Copernicus not Galileo...but otherwise a valid point.

But the other premise still exists...those things/concepts existed prior to their "discovery".  Crediting any religion with the discovery is blatant "blasphemy".   :D  
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

jn

  • Guest
Question about Islam
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2006, 04:51:42 PM »
I believe that Copernicus works on a implying a heliocentric system weren't published until after his death.  Galileo was the one tried by the Church.  C'mon, don't tell me you didn't hear that stinkin' Indigo Girls song a million times back in 95?  :bash:  

Offline WayOutWest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7411
    • View Profile
Question about Islam
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2006, 05:19:09 PM »
I should clarify, zero was also independently discovered and used in the "New World".  I'm not sure but I don't think neither the Muslims nor the Mayan's really knew what they had discovered, it was the Hindu's who fully realized the concept of zero and used it as we use it in modern day.

BTW, The History Channel Rocks!  Is there a non-geek way to state that?
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2006, 05:28:03 PM »
Quote
BTW, The History Channel Rocks!  Is there a non-geek way to state that?
Probably not...but definately one of the most watched channels in our house.  IMHO the best non-news, non-sports channel available.  And since there are around 10 gazillion channels to choose from that's not bad.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline Skandery

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1710
    • MSN Messenger - skandery27@hotmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2006, 05:52:40 PM »
Quote
I already said I didn't think that muslims were inherently violent, but it is a FACT that everywhere a muslim country borders a non-muslim country there is or has been violence.

Isn't it also FACT that everywhere a secular country populated by non-religious, pseudo-agnostics borders a non-secular country there is or has been violence.  

Quote
Feel free to draw your own conclusions!

I think I will!

I'll say that most of the violence in modern times around Islamic countries has less to do with the practice of religion or on behalf of one religious figure or another and has more to do with the socio-economic and political pressures onset by over 300 years of Western colonization and imperialism.  100 years ago, there was no such thing as a Saudi, a Syrian, an Iraqi, a Jordanian, or a Kurd -- a British guy drew borders on a map and dilineated them as such.  Oldest trick in the book divide and conquer.

And as I seem to recall the last time Americans started differenting themselves between New Yorkers and Virginians, Northerners and Southerners, Yankees and Rebels, our highly advanced, secular, "free" society sure didn't do much to quell the rampant violence and unprecedented death.

I'm sorry, Rick, the more you try and single out Muslims and Islamic countries for violence the more I'm going to call you on it and point out the hypocrisy.

   
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2006, 05:54:17 PM »
Thanks for that, WOW.  I didn't know that the Mayans had the concept, although it makes perfect sense, since they had a very advanced system of mathematics and a sophisticated understanding of astronomy.

I also did not know that the Hindu's had the concept of zero, but since the Vedics had established a very advanced society 4000 years ago, that also makes sense.

What I should have said is that muslims introduced the concept of zero to the Europeans.

There is a big difference between the existance of things like the concept of zero and man's understanding of them.

Your people knew about the America's long before the Europeans.  And our understanding of their cultures is very minimal compared with our knowledge of Egytian culture and the Hindu's.

War between Christian countries and non-Christian ones?  Hadn't thought about that, but  the point is every bit as valid as far as I know.  

Offline JoMal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
    • View Profile
    • http://
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2006, 06:37:41 PM »
Quote
I believe that Copernicus works on a implying a heliocentric system weren't published until after his death.  Galileo was the one tried by the Church.  C'mon, don't tell me you didn't hear that stinkin' Indigo Girls song a million times back in 95?  :bash:
um......yeah.

Copernicus would have been fried if his papers had been published in his lifetime, which would have been cut short immediately.

News of Gallleo's works DID get out and he had to face the Inquisition and renounce his findings. Even then, he was put under house arrest for the rest of his life.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2006, 08:47:55 PM »
Quote
Isn't it also FACT that everywhere a secular country populated by non-religious, pseudo-agnostics borders a non-secular country there is or has been violence.

No, I don't believe it is.  Wars have been fought for territory and world conquest, but religion hasn't been behind any of them in the modern era.  Unless you want to call facism or nazism religions.

And none of them religious or otherwise take the churches, synagogues or temples and turn them into Islamic sites.

Quote
I'll say that most of the violence in modern times around Islamic countries has less to do with the practice of religion or on behalf of one religious figure or another and has more to do with the socio-economic and political pressures onset by over 300 years of Western colonization and imperialism. 100 years ago, there was no such thing as a Saudi, a Syrian, an Iraqi, a Jordanian, or a Kurd -- a British guy drew borders on a map and dilineated them as such. Oldest trick in the book divide and conquer.

I'd say that's false, since all of those areas were controlled by the Ottoman Turks 100 years ago, and that was considered the height of muslim society- the Suliman Caliphate.

During the first World War, when the Ottomans aligned themselves with the Germans, the British aided the arab tribes in freeing themselves from the domination of the Turks.  Perhaps you remember Lawrence of Arabia?

The British did do the dividing, based on the tribes they were working with at the time.  This was the justification Saddam used to attack Kuwait, to reunite the provinces.  The Kuwaiti's probably had no interest in joining back with Iraq.  Iran was always separate as they are Persian, not Arab.

There is also the schism between the Sunni and the Shia,  which the west as far as I am aware has nothing to do with as it is an interpretation of the lineage of Muhhamed's decendents, and the belief that only those of his blood line are fit to rule.

Sure the West has been responsible for a good deal of trouble there, but primarily for the purpose of doing business and getting oil out of the region.  The Saudis and the rest of the Gulf states seem fairly happy with the arrangement, even to the point where they were against the recent attacks by Hezzbolah in Lebannon.

I'm not aware of any Christians or Jews singing songs comparing Muslims to Pigs and Apes, or making cartoons celebrating suicide attacks by martyrs.  But I do know that both the Palestinians and Iranians are!

You might say that they're not acting in harmony with the tenents of Islam, but the mullahs there would dissagree with you.

Incidentally the American civil war wasn't about slavery, although that was a part of it.  France and England conspired with the South and encouraged them to seceed.  They did this because they were afraid of the rising strength of the US, and also because the European Money power was squeezed out of the US when Andrew Jackson closed the 2nd Central Bank of the US.  The Europeans did not want the US to be on a gold standard, and they wanted to collect the interest on the public debt.

The Civil War pushed America deep into debt, and gave the European money power an opportunity to get back into the US.  By 1913, the reached their goal, the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank, which is a private corporation owned by large American banks with European ties.

It was this control over the US that led to the start of WW1, where the European banks made a fortune having America finance the war, making supplies and munitions for the French and British.


 

Offline WayOutWest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7411
    • View Profile
Question about Islam
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2006, 09:27:15 PM »
Skandery,

Is there any mention of ridding the world of Jews in the Quran?
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Skandery

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1710
    • MSN Messenger - skandery27@hotmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question about Islam
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2006, 09:48:22 AM »
Quote
Skandery,

Is there any mention of ridding the world of Jews in the Quran?


No
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline WayOutWest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7411
    • View Profile
Question about Islam
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2006, 10:30:27 AM »
Quote
Quote
Skandery,

Is there any mention of ridding the world of Jews in the Quran?


No
I read a few verses and it does say some harsh things BUT when you read it in context it's not bad at all.  I can see where radicals can take the "kill them where they live, breath and hide" verse and use it as an excuse to kill Jews.  The Qur'an does depict Jews in a very bad light, it does praise them in some places though.

There are some very harsh treatment and punishments for non-believers BUT I've read acts just as harsh, if not harsher, in the Bible.  According to the Bible God does HATE, and would have his servents kill those who he hates, including women and children.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"