Defending Moussaoui

[Reality]

Hey jn or Rick or anyone who has seen it publicized,

How much of the taxpayers money has been spent on defending Zacarias Moussaoui in total?  Defense Liarwers, transportation to and from courthouse, security, courtroom personnel, etc?

[westkoast]

I haven't seen any figures but I do not see why it would be any more than other high profile cases.

The money isnt the issue, its the fact that of all the people who had a hand in 9/11 we can only take a guy who knew about it but Al Queda felt was too much of a lame duck to take part.  For some reason our government things that popping this guy is going to make Americans happy and make them feel vindicated.  Not me.

[rickortreat]

I haven't seen any figures on the cost of the proceedings, but they're not over yet.  Also the penalty will determine the final cost.

If he is kept alive in a jail cell he will cost us more to cloth and feed him.

The only advantge I see in keeping him alive is to figure out how to undo the terrible brain washing he has gone under.

His idealogy has overwhelmed sensibility in his mind to the point where he believes in Islam above all other things and believes that his service as a terrorist is doing god's will.  I would like to see him come face to face with the reality that we are all god's children and that he has acted as an agent for evil.

Turning him back into a normal human being would do more to undermine the muslim fundamentalists than anything.  We are fighting a war of ideas with a bunch of very stupid people.  They have no appreant goal or objective other than to disrupt what is.  Ulitmately their actions and beliefs are harmfull to themselves and others and no good can ever come of their actions.

One only needs to look at history to realize that terrorists seldom become good responsible leaders.  They aren't about making things better.  They are about destrution and moral decay.  

[Reality]

The only advantge I see in keeping him alive is to figure out how to undo the terrible brain washing he has gone under.

His idealogy has overwhelmed sensibility in his mind to the point where he believes in Islam above all other things and believes that his service as a terrorist is doing god's will.  I would like to see him come face to face with the reality that we are all god's children and that he has acted as an agent for evil.

Turning him back into a normal human being would do more to undermine the muslim fundamentalists than anything.

Yes that would be great to see healthy thinking instilled in him.

That's why it just kills me off how much "the system' spends on defending what he currently is.  

[westkoast]

The only advantge I see in keeping him alive is to figure out how to undo the terrible brain washing he has gone under.

His idealogy has overwhelmed sensibility in his mind to the point where he believes in Islam above all other things and believes that his service as a terrorist is doing god's will.  I would like to see him come face to face with the reality that we are all god's children and that he has acted as an agent for evil.

Turning him back into a normal human being would do more to undermine the muslim fundamentalists than anything.

Yes that would be great to see healthy thinking instilled in him.

That's why it just kills me off how much "the system' spends on defending what he currently is.

Reality,

To not defend him in court and give him a fair trial, no matter how guilty or moronic this guy really is, would undermind our system.  I agree with you in the sense we are throwing money at a piece of dung.

To me the whole thing seems like nothing more than a dog and pony show for the American public so it looks as if we actually have hurt Al Queda and other terror networks.  The media is just as guily as the US government IMO.  They are trying to spin it as if he was a major player.  Obviously Al Queda thought of him as a lame duck because they kept him out of the loop.

[Joe Vancil]

Forget instilling "healthy thinking."  I'd rather see a lethal injection instilled, because that, you see, will actually perform as expected.

There must be dire consequences for folks willing to kill others, because we have no way of "auditing" a "change of heart."  And hearts don't change too often.

Besides - assuming he DOES have a change of heart, what does that mean?  Does it help in any form or fashion?  Assuming the guy is a small fish, no one will listen to him if he DOES change his mind.  And assuming the guy is a big fish, changing his mind only makes him the same kind of martyr that executing him does.

The strongest possible message needs to be sent.  The strongest possible message is execution.



 

[rickortreat]

Joe,

I wouldn't call killing all people who think like this turd a good thing.  I would call it a waste of effort and ammunition.

To avoid the time and expense of detroying entire civilizations, I think it would be better to undermine our opponenents by exploiting their weaknesses.

The weakness of Moussoui and those of his ilk is that there is no logic or reasonableness in their decision making.  In fact, they have no justification for their actions, since they will not achieve any of their aims.  The more that this truth can be illustated to people like him the better.

What motivates these morons is the belief that somehow their actions here will justify a better existance for themselves in the afterlife.  We need some type of information program like "Allah and the suiciders" where they go to heaven expecting 72 virgins and a palace and are instead cast into hell for killing Allah's chidren- other innocent human beings.  If doubt can be placed in the minds of the fanatics, so they hesitate to murder others, that would benefit us far more than killing tens of thousands of people.

There is no shortage of stupid, desparate people in the world, but there is a shortage of clear thinking, right minded individuals trying to find a way to make the world a better place.  Harnessing the Moussaoui's of the world so they use their engergy in a productive way would be a great achivement if it could be done.  As it is, people like him are wasteing and ruining their lives as well as others.

If we could encourage muslim countries to invest in their education so they learn how to think logically, that would do more to release their people from the grip of the mullahs than anything else.  Forceing them to realize how backwards their countries are relative to the rest of the world, might encourage more humility and respect in them for what the rest of the world has accomplished.

It amazed me that Moussaoui thought that the rest of the world should pay tribute to the muslim countries.  How could he ignore how much more advanced the rest of the world is, and how inferior the countries he belives in are?  






 

[Joe Vancil]

I'm not encouraging the killing of people who "think like" Moussaoui.  I could care less what some of these folks think - which, I believe, is still covered in the Bill of Rights.  I care how they *ACT*.

I'm encouraging the execution of criminals caught who have worked specifically to kill innocents.  Like Moussaoui, for starters.

Nothing encourages "right thinking" as much as seeing *ALL* of the penalties for "wrong thinking."

And I disagree that such things are a "waste of effort," as they will ultimately succeed in their goal:  to make sure he NEVER DOES IT AGAIN.  "Changing his mind" won't offer that guarantee, because there's nothing to prevent him from changing his mind again later.
 

[Reality]

I'm not encouraging the killing of people who "think like" Moussaoui.  I could care less what some of these folks think - which, I believe, is still covered in the Bill of Rights.  I care how they *ACT*.

I'm encouraging the execution of criminals caught who have worked specifically to kill innocents.  Like Moussaoui, for starters.

Nothing encourages "right thinking" as much as seeing *ALL* of the penalties for "wrong thinking."

And I disagree that such things are a "waste of effort," as they will ultimately succeed in their goal:  to make sure he NEVER DOES IT AGAIN.  "Changing his mind" won't offer that guarantee, because there's nothing to prevent him from changing his mind again later.

However,
in their false religious belief, martyrdom is their ultimate goal.  Publicizing it Xs10 just feeds their demon so much the moreso.
By stretching "due process" into such a dog n pony joke show it has become, they would no doubt also have the execution being some drawn out overtelevised overexposed process.  That will take 14 years if ever, and how many ACLU appeals.

I completely agree Joe that because penalties for so many crimes are either not metted out or so soft its a joke that it instills zero fear of penalty in offenders.
White collar white devils being amoung them.

[rickortreat]

Moussawi gets life in prison?  After all of this, and his glee at the sounds of the plane crash, I kind of think the guy deserves to be sent out of this world.  Anyone who shows no reguard for human life and no remourse for the suffering of innocents is seriously deficient and without any redeeming qualities.

As I said earlier, if we can find a way to deprogram this lout in a way that we could propogate out to the rest of his fellow terrorists, that would be more usefull than killing him.  At the same time, however, I wonder how keeping him alive affects the other terrorists.  

Since they are willing to kill for their beliefs, they must think us fools for not killing him.  At the same time our belief in the value of life has to be confusing for them.  The infidels didn't kill him!?  What will Ossama say about that?  

[Reality]

As I said earlier, if we can find a way to deprogram this lout in a way that we could propogate out to the rest of his fellow terrorists, that would be more usefull than killing him.  At the same time, however, I wonder how keeping him alive affects the other terrorists.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060504/ts_al...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

He's been sentenced to SuperMaxx in Colorado.
Spokeman says he will rot in a 7 X 12 cell.
No yard exercise, no contact with other inmates, period.
What this is supposed to prove or accomplish, i don't know.
Cost of incarceration, my guess is at least 80K a year.

[Joe Vancil]

I tell you - some folks are beyond hope.

In his eyes, he won, and he said so in court.  He killed, and he lived.  Great message we just sent, there.

Anyone feel like flying an airplane into his jail cell?

 

[rickortreat]

How's this for spin Joe?

Life is sacred, and as long as one is alive one can change.  Life is hope and it has an incalculable value.

Contrast that with the terroists philosophy and the muslim orthodoxy that it's right to kill non-believers or insincere muslims.

Which has more appeal, the capacity to forgive and deal gently with crimes, or an absoulute punishment from which there is no recovery?

OK, this guy is dirt and beneath contempt.  If they could terminate Stanley "Tookie" Williams for what he did, I can't understand why we can't terminate this guy.  :crazy:  

[Joe Vancil]

Rick,

     Depends on the crime.

     After all, the capacity to forgive is unaffected by the punishment doled out.  People can forgive him just as easily when he's dead as opposed to when he's alive.  And dealing gently should be reserved for those who have some level of remorse.

     Keep in mind, by jailing this guy, he's now seen as a hostage.  One good thing about martyrs - nobody does stupid stuff trying to get them returned to life.

 

[rickortreat]

Very good Joe.  I agree.