Kobe handles the pretendor

[JoMal]

Sort of like how Kobe claims he is creating opportunities now for his teammates to rebound his twenty or so misses per game. Just part of his 'plan' for involving his teammates.

Now you are mixing Kobe up with Reality?  I think its time for a nap JoMaL!!

Oh, if your own "reality" were not so colored in its views. Kobe actually said just that to the news media, who, unfortunately for you, wrote it down and reported it.

I think it might be time for you to wake up from your nap.  

[JoMal]

This article comparing LeBron and Kobe pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/060117

Mine too. Good comparison article.

But Kobe Bean??? :rofl:  

[JoMal]

While I agree you dish the ball if your man has an open shot the best player on your team should be taking a majority of the last second shots.  That is why Jordan took about 95% of the clutch shots while he was wearing red.

Well, in that case, westkoast, you just do not get it.

The best player on your team should make the SMARTEST plays. If that translates into passing the ball instead of trying to shoot through the other team, because you have that "killer" instinct, so be it.

Kobe will take his shot, regardless. Apparently, LeBron would opt for the 'smart' shot, regardless. Basketball IQ 101. Look for one of LeBron's teams to be in the finals one of these days. Look for one of Kobe's team to compete during the regular season, but not advance far into the playoffs every year.  

[westkoast]

Sort of like how Kobe claims he is creating opportunities now for his teammates to rebound his twenty or so misses per game. Just part of his 'plan' for involving his teammates.

Now you are mixing Kobe up with Reality?  I think its time for a nap JoMaL!!

Oh, if your own "reality" were not so colored in its views. Kobe actually said just that to the news media, who, unfortunately for you, wrote it down and reported it.

I think it might be time for you to wake up from your nap.

Let's see the link.  Cuz you are not mr objective yourself so I am dying to see in what context it was said.

Well, in that case, westkoast, you just do not get it.

The best player on your team should make the SMARTEST plays. If that translates into passing the ball instead of trying to shoot through the other team, because you have that "killer" instinct, so be it.

Kobe will take his shot, regardless. Apparently, LeBron would opt for the 'smart' shot, regardless. Basketball IQ 101. Look for one of LeBron's teams to be in the finals one of these days. Look for one of Kobe's team to compete during the regular season, but not advance far into the playoffs every year.

So I guess deciding to take the jump shot yourself is never the smartest play huh?  Michael Jordan shouldn't have taken Byron off the dribble because it would have been smarter to hit a standing Steve Kerr who no one expected to shoot that shot right?

Lebron did not opt for the smart play(s) against the Lakers, he passed the ball up to someone else who was not hitting his jumper as well as Lebron was.  He also took an off balanced shot fading to his left at the last second even though someone was open at the top of the key.  Maybe you need to use some better examples?

I find it very funny that you are telling me my vision is tainted on the subject like yours is not.

As for your Lebron prediction, not going to happen until he gets a big man to compliment his outside game.  This is wishfull thinking on your part hoping that it will make Kobe look bad.  Magic is a better player than Lebron is yet he couldn't get it done without a big man.  Jordan needed his killer instinct to beat a number of teams the Cavs, Knicks, and Utah respectively.  Lebron is damn good but certainly with no big man he is not going to compete with Detroit, SA, or even Miami until they all lose their post players.

Then again once Duncan leaves the Spurs will still have Fabs to dominate.

[Joe Vancil]

Here's where I say that I think both Kobe and LeBron aren't right on the money as to their judgement of where the "clutch" shot should go.

Kobe errs too far on the side of doing it himself.  He always has, ever since he came into the league.

LeBron errs too far on the side of letting someone else do it.  He has ever since he came into the league.

Both have adjustments to make.

I simply believe that as a coach, it's easier to fix the "problem" with the latter.  

When you add to it that the younger, less experienced player has the easier-to-fix problem, I think that's what separates the two.  

LeBron's problem *MIGHT* simply be one of incorrect judgement.

I think it's easier to build the humble up than to tear the proud down.

 

[JoMal]

Let's see the link.  Cuz you are not mr objective yourself so I am dying to see in what context it was said.

The quote is from November, 2005, I believe after a game against either the Nets or the Spurs. Kobe took 36 shots against the nets, making 14, and 33 shots against the Spurs, netting 9, so either game could have brough on this quote:

"This particular ball club right now, I have to be assertive, and if the ball doesn't go in, it gives us a good rebounding opportunity, which we were able to get tonight," Byants said. "Guys went to the glass even on my misses and we got some good looks off of my misses. But we'll get to a point where executionally, we'll start executing much better and I won't have to take as many shots and the game becomes easier for everybody."

I could only find the reference to it now in a Blog, but originally it was in one of the LA papers.

So I guess deciding to take the jump shot yourself is never the smartest play huh?  Michael Jordan shouldn't have taken Byron off the dribble because it would have been smarter to hit a standing Steve Kerr who no one expected to shoot that shot right?

I hate repeating myself, but you REALLY don't get it. Making the SMART play could very well be taking the shot yourself, which I implied. To Kobe, that is always his option, which makes it NOT always the smart play, does it, because he could be passing up a teammate with a clearer shot and whom he rarely looks for.

Lebron did not opt for the smart play(s) against the Lakers, he passed the ball up to someone else who was not hitting his jumper as well as Lebron was.  He also took an off balanced shot fading to his left at the last second even though someone was open at the top of the key.  Maybe you need to use some better examples?

I find it very funny that you are telling me my vision is tainted on the subject like yours is not.

You mean like the umpteen times Kobe took those last second shots in games without considering any open teammates and missed them? You mean all of those? Because there are one hell of a lot more examples of those types then one, lousy game in which LeBron did NOT execute the play and it happens to be against the Lakers, so you can feel comfortable making a blanket statement about LeBron's clutch shooting compared to Kobe's from it.

Gee, sort of like how I am treating Kobe. Duh.

As for your Lebron prediction, not going to happen until he gets a big man to compliment his outside game.  This is wishfull thinking on your part hoping that it will make Kobe look bad.  Magic is a better player than Lebron is yet he couldn't get it done without a big man.  Jordan needed his killer instinct to beat a number of teams the Cavs, Knicks, and Utah respectively.  Lebron is damn good but certainly with no big man he is not going to compete with Detroit, SA, or even Miami until they all lose their post players.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Are you talking about Kobe or LeBron here? It seems to me that Kobe once had a great center who seemed to be just what was needed to help out a bit, just like you say LeBron needs. Whatever happened to him?

Kobe's killer instinct does not by itself translate into the type of respect that Magic and Jordon received from his complementary teammates. You see, those other guys understood that for their teams to improve to the championship level, they needed to involve others, and they pushed the begeezes out of them doing it. Kobe's killer instinct seems to be telling his teammates to just clear space for him so he can do everything himself.

I sense a big difference there. One that favors LeBron following in Jordan and Magic's footsteps a wee bit more the Bryant indicates he will.

[westkoast]

Here's where I say that I think both Kobe and LeBron aren't right on the money as to their judgement of where the "clutch" shot should go.

Kobe errs too far on the side of doing it himself.  He always has, ever since he came into the league.

LeBron errs too far on the side of letting someone else do it.  He has ever since he came into the league.

Both have adjustments to make.

I simply believe that as a coach, it's easier to fix the "problem" with the latter.  

When you add to it that the younger, less experienced player has the easier-to-fix problem, I think that's what separates the two.  

LeBron's problem *MIGHT* simply be one of incorrect judgement.

I think it's easier to build the humble up than to tear the proud down.

You are right in that assestment but Lebron is such a great passer that it isn't something you unlearn right away.  In order to be a great passer you have to have the mentality that Lebron does.   So its hard for any player to balance between the two...if anyone can do it I would say Lebron can.

[Joe Vancil]

And again, westkoast, I disagree.

Good passing is about DECISION-MAKING - not about passing mentality.  I'd argue that that is often why really good passers often  have really good shooting percentages.  It's because they choose good shots.  Even as Jason Kidd has gone on, his shooting has improved.  I expect the same thing will happen with Baron Davis.

You have to have A BIT of a passer's mentality to be a good passer, but it's an extremely rare case when a passer doesn't recognize that he's got a shot.  And in such a player, normally, it's not an initial look - but one that has occurred because he DIDN'T make a quick decision.

And, as Skander and Caleb can tell you, I'm pretty well versed in that "over-passers" mentality, as I'm a great example of a player who is so geared toward looking to pass that I forget to look and see if I'm being given a shot.  But as they also can tell you, when I take most of those particular kinds of shots, I miss them.

LeBron is a talented passer...not a talented OVERpasser.


 

[westkoast]

The quote is from November, 2005, I believe after a game against either the Nets or the Spurs. Kobe took 36 shots against the nets, making 14, and 33 shots against the Spurs, netting 9, so either game could have brough on this quote:

"This particular ball club right now, I have to be assertive, and if the ball doesn't go in, it gives us a good rebounding opportunity, which we were able to get tonight," Byants said. "Guys went to the glass even on my misses and we got some good looks off of my misses. But we'll get to a point where executionally, we'll start executing much better and I won't have to take as many shots and the game becomes easier for everybody."

I could only find the reference to it now in a Blog, but originally it was in one of the LA papers.

BAHAHAHHAHAHA

Wow JoMaL this is pretty pathetic on your part and you are saying my vision is tainted.  Reality and Chubby Checker would be proud of your comments in this thread.  Explain to me how that equals Kobe thinks that taking more shots is helping spread the ball around.  Sounds to me like hes saying that his team did a good job on the offensive glass.

hate repeating myself, but you REALLY don't get it. Making the SMART play could very well be taking the shot yourself, which I implied. To Kobe, that is always his option, which makes it NOT always the smart play, does it, because he could be passing up a teammate with a clearer shot and whom he rarely looks for.

Which one is it JoMaL?  Is it he ALWAYS shoots or is it that he sometimes looks for his teammates?  I take this entire comment with a grain of salt considering you watch no Laker games.

You mean like the umpteen times Kobe took those last second shots in games without considering any open teammates and missed them? You mean all of those? Because there are one hell of a lot more examples of those types then one, lousy game in which LeBron did NOT execute the play and it happens to be against the Lakers, so you can feel comfortable making a blanket statement about LeBron's clutch shooting compared to Kobe's from it.

Gee, sort of like how I am treating Kobe. Duh.

Again, wouldnt you have to watch the games to know what he is doing in the game under a minute?  Wouldnt you ahve to watch the game to know if he even looked the way of another teammate or did in fact pass the ball?

I used the Cavs/Laker game because you said  and I quote

"Kobe will take his shot, regardless. Apparently, LeBron would opt for the 'smart' shot, regardless"

So JoMaL which one is it?  Kobe always takes the shot regardless and Lebron always makes the smart play and shot.....I pointed out he didnt.  Lousy game or not it proves what you said is wrong.

Are you talking about Kobe or LeBron here? It seems to me that Kobe once had a great center who seemed to be just what was needed to help out a bit, just like you say LeBron needs. Whatever happened to him?

Kobe's killer instinct does not by itself translate into the type of respect that Magic and Jordon received from his complementary teammates. You see, those other guys understood that for their teams to improve to the championship level, they needed to involve others, and they pushed the begeezes out of them doing it. Kobe's killer instinct seems to be telling his teammates to just clear space for him so he can do everything himself.

I sense a big difference there. One that favors LeBron following in Jordan and Magic's footsteps a wee bit more the Bryant indicates he will.

I am talking about Lebron.  Kobe has 3 rings he got from having a big man.  Lebron is not going to get past the Pistons, SA, or even Miami with Ilgauskus, sorry.

Here you go again talking about what the current Laker players think.  Can you point me to the source of all this inside information or the secret microphone you have on them?  The Laker players and Phil Jackson seem to disagree with what your saying based on statements made in the paper and after the game.

Skander where are you?  We have another person giving all the props to Kobe only.  Apparently JoMaL too thinks that Kobe has not bought into the team game whatsoever and the Lakers are currently in the playoff hunt based strickly off what he does.  If he has not bought into the team game at all why are the Lakers playing better basketball?  Dont tell me you are Kobe ass kissing now JoMaL  :eek2:  

[Reality]

Lakers vs Cavs had Lebron taking the last two shots for the Cavs.  1st was an obvious foul on Kobme which resulted in two foul shots for Lebron.  He missed the 2nd, the miss obviously attributable to Kobes *lockdown* D.

Cavs get rebound and call time.  Prior to the inbounds Kobe with tounge wagging and killer instinct intact is attempting to mount LeBron.  The ref came over -twice- to move Kobme off Lebron.  Of course as the ball was inbounds he leaned right back into him.  Lebron got it, took a few steps with Kobe handchecking/leaning and got off a clean shot.  Missed.  

So there is the last two shots of a 99-98 game.  Perhaps the final shot attempt would have been better going elsewhere given Kombes leaning.

At any rate Lebron hardly shyed away from the last two shots.

That Bryant took the last 3 is no different the 1/2 the Lakers games this year.
The one he made with 6 seconds was a beauty.  Good D and he still hit it.  The previous 2 were simply par for his course.

[JoMal]

BAHAHAHHAHAHA

Wow JoMaL this is pretty pathetic on your part and you are saying my vision is tainted.  Reality and Chubby Checker would be proud of your comments in this thread.  Explain to me how that equals Kobe thinks that taking more shots is helping spread the ball around.  Sounds to me like hes saying that his team did a good job on the offensive glass.

 

Because any other reasonable person would see that Kobe is saying JUST that. His "idea" of spreading the ball around and creating opportunities for his teammates is having them hit the offensive glass harder. Talk about spindoctoring.

"Getting good looks off my misses".

BAHAHAHHAHAHA

Which one is it JoMaL?  Is it he ALWAYS shoots or is it that he sometimes looks for his teammates?  I take this entire comment with a grain of salt considering you watch no Laker games.

"The best player on your team should make the SMARTEST plays. If that translates into passing the ball instead of trying to shoot through the other team, because you have that "killer" instinct, so be it."

I guess I have to repeat myself. Try......reading.....slower. Bryant's first option has been to shoot the ball, or don't you agree with that?

Again, wouldnt you have to watch the games to know what he is doing in the game under a minute?  Wouldnt you ahve to watch the game to know if he even looked the way of another teammate or did in fact pass the ball?

You mean he plays differently during the Laker games I don't watch? Wow, I never knew he cared so much about my opinion.

I used the Cavs/Laker game because you said  and I quote

"Kobe will take his shot, regardless. Apparently, LeBron would opt for the 'smart' shot, regardless"

So JoMaL which one is it?  Kobe always takes the shot regardless and Lebron always makes the smart play and shot.....I pointed out he didnt.  Lousy game or not it proves what you said is wrong.

It proves nothing. In the same, exact situation, where their teams are down by a basket and the clock is running out, Kobe will be looking for his own shot, while Lebron will look for the best shot.

Brush the flies away, westkoast, you are beginning to stink.

I am talking about Lebron.  Kobe has 3 rings he got from having a big man.  Lebron is not going to get past the Pistons, SA, or even Miami with Ilgauskus, sorry.

How would you know, oh saged one? Jordan did fine with Bill Cartwright in the middle, and Ilgauskus is hardly a liability.

Let me put it to you this way. Given the chance to play with the same quality center (for this arguement, let's exclude Shaq from this), I would suggest a longer term success rate for LeBron then I would Kobe, just for the sake that there would be considerably less turmoil on LeBron's team...and happier teammates.

Here you go again talking about what the current Laker players think.  Can you point me to the source of all this inside information or the secret microphone you have on them?  The Laker players and Phil Jackson seem to disagree with what your saying based on statements made in the paper and after the game.

And what is your source of the happy, respectful Laker teammates when the microphones aren't on? Just a wild guess here, but I would think the Lakers would do their best to ensure harmony exists on the team with Kobe doing his thing all the time.

But, yes, I am supposing that it is possible Kobe's teammates may feel a bit resentful not being included in any Laker late game heroics unless they can rebound Kobe's many misses and make a play out of it.

Would love to hear how Jackson's zen zingers on the sidelines spin THAT option for Kobe's little helpers during those last minute timeouts.  
 

Skander where are you?  We have another person giving all the props to Kobe only.  Apparently JoMaL too thinks that Kobe has not bought into the team game whatsoever and the Lakers are currently in the playoff hunt based strickly off what he does.  If he has not bought into the team game at all why are the Lakers playing better basketball?  Dont tell me you are Kobe ass kissing now JoMaL

I give more credit to Kobe regarding the Laker's playoff hunt then you do, westkoast. I believe the Lakers are in the hunt ONLY based strictly off what he does. You see, it kind of works for them, Kobe going off all the time. He said it himself. He has to keep the ball and do something with it if the Lakers have any kind of chance to win, and I totally agree with him.

Which is also why I believe they have no chance with him either. Sometimes you need other guys demanding the ball in those situations, and all Kobe has for teammates are a bunch of guys who get paid millions to be spectators at the end of close games, just like the rest of us.

[msc]

Top 10 Things I’ve Learned From this Thread  

10. Kobe could learn a thing or two from Steve Blake and Juan Dixon.

9.  Kobe takes the overwhelming majority of last second shots for his team.

8.  Kobe’s high amount of shots per game is an unselfish attempt to pad his teammates rebounding stats.

7.  LeBron takes the last shot most often for his team, and it’s usually the smart shot.  Kobe takes the last second shot simply because he demands the ball on every possession.

6.  Kobe wants to kill everybody

5.  Kobe has never passed out of a double team to an open teammate for a last second shot … ever.  

4.  Kobe doesn’t take last second shots because the coaching staff, teammates, fans and the beer lady at Staples all feel he has the best chance to help the Lakers win …. Heck No!  He does it because he’s a spoiled, selfish, ball-hog who would rather alienate his teammates and pad his stats than win games.  

3.  Kobe may consider passing to an open teammate at the end of a game in the future if, and only if, Robert Horry and/or Derek Fisher come back to the Lakers.

2.  Jordan used to often defer last second shots to Steve Kerr and John Paxson.

And the #1 thing I’ve learned from this thread …

1.  Kobe is no more clutch than Eddie House!

[JoMal]

Maybe one other thing.

You don't need a hook to catch fish in a barrel.

Here's to dabod's barrel. :cheers:    

[guest-koast]

Because any other reasonable person would see that Kobe is saying JUST that. His "idea" of spreading the ball around and creating opportunities for his teammates is having them hit the offensive glass harder. Talk about spindoctoring.

"Getting good looks off my misses".

BAHAHAHHAHAHA

I am hoping for your sake and credibility that this is nothing more than powerbait.  I really really am hoping here.

"The best player on your team should make the SMARTEST plays. If that translates into passing the ball instead of trying to shoot through the other team, because you have that "killer" instinct, so be it."

I guess I have to repeat myself. Try......reading.....slower. Bryant's first option has been to shoot the ball, or don't you agree with that? 

I guess taking shots over a 6'2 guard who cannot laterally move as fast as you can is not a smart option.  Phil Jackson's first option has been to shoot the ball, I think you need to re-think who actually calls up those plays.  Apparently again, you seem to be ass kissing for Kobe cuz now apparently he is the coach also!!

You mean he plays differently during the Laker games I don't watch? Wow, I never knew he cared so much about my opinion.

I mean you are assuming, as usual, that he is playing one way everytime.  How would you even have any idea if you do not watch the games?  The point is, you don't.  I could point out MANY times that Kobe has given up the ball in crunch time or name right off the top of my head game winning shots made by other players off a Kobe pass this year but I do not want to bother you with facts.

It proves nothing. In the same, exact situation, where their teams are down by a basket and the clock is running out, Kobe will be looking for his own shot, while Lebron will look for the best shot.

Brush the flies away, westkoast, you are beginning to stink.

Is that true?  Maybe in what-if-ville or assumption island where you have taken residence.  Pretty much you are sitting back playing Nastradamus by saying everytime Kobe is not going to find the best shot and everytime Lebron will.  Quite a bold statement huh?  If you want to look like a clown from the circus then so be it lol

If I need to brush the flies away it is only because I am conversating with you.  We made this smiley just for you!  :bs:

How would you know, oh saged one? Jordan did fine with Bill Cartwright in the middle, and Ilgauskus is hardly a liability.

Let me put it to you this way. Given the chance to play with the same quality center (for this arguement, let's exclude Shaq from this), I would suggest a longer term success rate for LeBron then I would Kobe, just for the sake that there would be considerably less turmoil on LeBron's team...and happier teammates.
 

Jordan did do fine with Bill Cartwright, he was also in a system that gets other players open shots, creates spacing, and allows for better ball movement.  Is Lebron running the triangle?  Oh he isnt!!  

Exactly who in the second half of the Bulls run was a center who dominated in the playoffs?  Aside from Shaq who's team kept running into a much better Utah team?

And what is your source of the happy, respectful Laker teammates when the microphones aren't on? Just a wild guess here, but I would think the Lakers would do their best to ensure harmony exists on the team with Kobe doing his thing all the time.

But, yes, I am supposing that it is possible Kobe's teammates may feel a bit resentful not being included in any Laker late game heroics unless they can rebound Kobe's many misses and make a play out of it.

Would love to hear how Jackson's zen zingers on the sidelines spin THAT option for Kobe's little helpers during those last minute timeouts.

Here is the difference between me and you.  I don't sit back and assume things I really dont know about.  Do I know if they secretly hate them? No.  Do you? Nope!  Do I know if they sit back and talk greatly about him at home to their wives? No.  Do you? Nope!

You are supposing, assuming, talking out of your ass...any of the above apply.  According to you, a person who doesn't watch the Lakers, they have not got to take part in late game heroics.  I saw otherwise but I guess I am not the mayor of assumption island either so what would I know?

I give more credit to Kobe regarding the Laker's playoff hunt then you do, westkoast. I believe the Lakers are in the hunt ONLY based strictly off what he does. You see, it kind of works for them, Kobe going off all the time. He said it himself. He has to keep the ball and do something with it if the Lakers have any kind of chance to win, and I totally agree with him.

Which is also why I believe they have no chance with him either. Sometimes you need other guys demanding the ball in those situations, and all Kobe has for teammates are a bunch of guys who get paid millions to be spectators at the end of close games, just like the rest of us.

Kobe could score a hundred and seventy points in a game and the Lakers would still lose if they were not playing defense.  Kobe is holding up the offense but offense is not what wins games through out the season, it is defense.  The Laker didn't beat the Heat on Monday because Kobe scored 37.  They won because they held the team to 42% shooting and well under their normal scoring average.

If any one thing is important to them turning it around this year then it is defense.  Kobe scored quite a bit last year too but the Lakers had a pretty pitfull record so explain that.

You are losing your edge old man  

 

[How the might have fallen]

JoMaL is that your defense everytime you make silly comments that do not hold weight?  "I was just baiting" "here is another fish for the barrell"

Seems to me like you've been fading in and out of trying to bait and actually thinking you have valid points :lol: