Its Time for everyone's Dirk Nowitzki Update

[westkoast]

If Barkley was never top 5, who were the top 5 in 1993?

Jordan and Olajuwon are givens, but who else?  Shaq?  His team wasn't even a playoff team in that year - his rookie year.  Magic and Bird were gone.  David Robinson and Patrick Ewing enjoyed less success than Barkley.  Isiah Thomas was on the down-swing.

Barkley was DEFINITELY a top 5 player.

Karl Malone??

David Robinson also had less to work with that year than Charles did.   Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Dan Marjs, and Cedric Ceballos.  The starting 5 were all averaging double digits for the year with no one scoring less than 14 points a game.   The Knicks were pretty successfull that year and their #1 player was Ewing.  Only two games shy of what the Suns did that year.  How was Pat less successfull if he did more with less?

Charles Barkley was twice the defensive rebounder Dirk is yet Dirk is twice as fast and 5-6 inches taller?!  Barkley's defense was not as pitful as Dirk's is.

[Reality]

Put your crack pipes down.

http://probasketball.about.com/gi/dynamic/...v%3DiYPLTvs1v1g

[WayOutWest]

Maybe some of you should actually watch a few Mavs games before falling back on stereotypes.    :nod:

That's what I do, I have no idea what Dirks stats are this year, I know he gets good rebounding numbers but he's not a good rebounder in the classical sense.

To even think of comparing Dirks defense to Big Ben or TD clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about and don't watch ANY NBA basketball.

[WayOutWest]

If Barkley was never top 5, who were the top 5 in 1993?
 

In 93 Charles wasn't even the best at his position.

Here's my top 10 in 93:
MJ
Robinson
Dream
Ewing
Malone
Shaq (even as a rookie his precense was greater than Charles plus Shaq was a rebounding machine as a rookie)
Charles
Kemp
Daugherty
Dumars
 

[Derek Bodner]

Put your crack pipes down.

http://probasketball.about.com/gi/dynamic/...v%3DiYPLTvs1v1g

Shawn Kemp was very good, but he wasn't near charles' level.

[Reality]

Put your crack pipes down.

http://probasketball.about.com/gi/dynamic/...v%3DiYPLTvs1v1g

Shawn Kemp was very good, but he wasn't near charles' level.

Barkley mayhave been better in '93, but Kemp was not far behind and took over in 1994 undisputably.  

Sonics were better in 93 tho.  All time rip off of Laker stature playoff Game 7 Sonics vs Phx.  

66 FTAs to 22 for Phx.  

I talked to Sonics Michael Cage in person.  "Everyone knew what was up, Phx players, refs, NBA, everyone."

That is the year CBS ran promos for the Finals before they semis were over.  Showing Chuck vs MJ. :rofl:  

[westkoast]

"Maybe some of you should actually watch a few Mavs games before falling back on stereotypes"

Are you going to go Skandery on us and post pics of Dirk getting handled by an offensive player?

I just dont see where anyone can argue he is anything more than a below average defender for the size and speed he has been given.

[Lurker]

I guess the argument that opponents don't light him up is useless.  Besides pointing out his improved footwork, opponents being held below their averages (generally) and top 20 rebounding status there really is no way to prove that he is a much better defender than given credit for by this group.

Is he an all-NBA defender?  No, I won't argue that although it would be something to pass the time of day.  But I would say he is better than the average NBA power forward.  I just am not sure how to prove it.

[westkoast]

I guess the argument that opponents don't light him up is useless.  Besides pointing out his improved footwork, opponents being held below their averages (generally) and top 20 rebounding status there really is no way to prove that he is a much better defender than given credit for by this group.

Is he an all-NBA defender?  No, I won't argue that although it would be something to pass the time of day.  But I would say he is better than the average NBA power forward.  I just am not sure how to prove it.

So because guys like Shawn Marion don't score 45 on Dirk means he is a good defender?  Great his footwork is improved yet his rotation on defense is still piss poor.  So you are saying he is mentally holding himself back from playing good defense?

[WayOutWest]

So you are saying he is mentally holding himself back from playing good defense?

No, no and no!  :nonono:

What Lurker is saying is we live in a world where the theory of Evolution cannot be proven, the thoery of Relativity cannot be proven and sadly the theory that Dirk is playing defense as good as KG, TD and Big Ben cannot be proven.

What causes even more confusion about the Theory is that Lurkers is not calling Dirk an All-NBA defender, Lurker is only saying he's playing defense as well as All-NBA defenders.   :crazy:

[JoMal]

Is he an all-NBA defender?  No, I won't argue that although it would be something to pass the time of day.  But I would say he is better than the average NBA power forward.  I just am not sure how to prove it.

You don't have to prove it. No one would trust any so-called empirical evidence you might be able to develop to back up your arguement anyway. Way to go in crushing your credibility as an unbiased observer of the NBA game.  

[rickortreat]

QUOTE (Reality @ Jan 4 2006, 08:41 PM)
rrofl.gif

Anyone who doesn't think Kobe did not have a better last week then Dirk........

rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif rrofl.gif

What? screwy.gif I need one of those Star Trek universal translators to figure out what you actually mean.

Perhaps I can be of assistance.  Reality wrote a double negative statement:  doens't think...did not have, properly translates to does think..did have, rendering the final statement:

Anyone who thinks Kobe had a better week then Dirk....

Not that I think that is what Reality meant, but if he has been unable to learn proper english syntax by now, he probably never will!

Perhaps this says something about the state of the educational system in California?

[JoMal]

Perhaps this says something about the state of the educational system in California?

Not that the current educational system in this state doesn't have corpse flies buzzing around the carcass, but I would not blanket all of us living in California with that comment, rick.

[Skandery]

I know some of you have heard of Hollinger's PER ratings. This is a rating that incorporates various forms of on-court production. A good comparison is your PER vs your opponent's PER. Just a few examples from 82games.com:

Player PER oPER
Garnett 28.7 15.7
Duncan 28.3 15.0
Brand 29.1 13.6 (speaks loudly of MVP consideration)
BigBen 20.2 16.4
JO'Neal 20.2 14.2
Dirk 29.1 16.0

I would say that Dirk is playing defense at the level of KG & TD & Big Ben based on the stats. Maybe some of you should actually watch a few Mavs games before falling back on stereotypes. 

Praise the good lord, hallelujah, the voice of reason at last.  Great post Lurker, exactly what MY point is.  People like to fall on stereotypes instead of actually watching the games and taking into account results and trends.  

This idea that Dirk Nowitzki is a big giant hole on defense is outdated and inaccurate.  The guy does good, NOT GREAT, but good and I think the tutelage of Avery Johnson will continue to improve his defensive game.    

[westkoast]

Skandery last time you tried to point out us falling for stereotypes you posted pictures of Dirk getting beat by an offensive player  

The stereotype you two are reffering to is the one that Dirk is a crappy defender....so in essence you both are saying he is a good defender then right?  If we are just falling for the stereotype, can you guys please back up his great defense somewhere.  I've yet to see it from him.