Author Topic: Kobe-wan!  (Read 7898 times)

Guest_Randy

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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2005, 01:55:58 PM »
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Laker Fans United:

Its good to be proud of the performance from Kobe Bryant, 62 points in 3 quarters is absolutely incredible and is one of the great individual performances I've ever witnessed.  But the various negative comments and utter debasement of Dirk Nowitzki among others is inexcusable even if it does come from drunken fervor and pride of your hometown guy.  So lets now take a walk down statistics alley.

Dirk Nowitzki (rankings among PFs)
----------------------------------------

25.8 PPG -- 1st  
9.3  RPG -- 12th
2.2  APG -- 12th
1.1  BPG -- 11th -- big man category

1.5 threes at .396
6.0 Fts      at .872

FG: .458
TO: 1.8
Min: 38.1 MPG

Kobe Bryant (rankings among SGs)
-----------------------------------------

32.5 PPG -- 1st
5.4  RPG -- 11th
4.3  APG -- 7th
1.3  SPG -- 17th -- guard category

1.2 threes at .315
7.9 Fts      at .822

FG: .448
TO: 2.9
Min: 39.9 MPG

Statistically, DN and KB are comparable in terms of points and rebounds.  Kobe is a better passer and Dirk is better at getting blocks than Kobe is at getting steals.  Dirk makes more threes at a ridiculously higher percentage, Kobe gets to the line more often but still is giving up 5 percentage points to Dirk.  Dirk shoots at a higher percentage, commits a turnover less per game, and has nearly 2 minutes less per game to accumulate stats than Kobe.  Now one might ask how these INDIVIDUAL stats reflect on the TEAM stats, I'm glad you asked:

Dallas Mavericks
--------------------
OPP PPG      - 94.7
OPP FG%     - .446
OPP Off Reb - 10.8
FG%            - .462
3P%            - .369
FT%            - .749
Rebs/Def     - 43.1/30.3
Assists        - 17.1
Steals          - 7.4
Blocks         - 6.1
Points          - 98.6
Win PCT      - .720   <-- the only one that matters

Los Angeles Lakers
----------------------
OPP PPG       - 94.0
OPP FG%      - .437
OPP Off Reb  - 11.5
FG%             - .441
3P%             - .335
FT%             - .734
Rebs/Def      - 42.3/29.6
Assists         - 20.2
Steals          - 7.2
Blocks          - 4.7
Points           - 96.4
Win Pct         - .560

Defensively, the Lakers hold opponents to less points per game and 1 percentage point less in the FG department, but they let other teams get more offensive rebounds.  Offensively, the Mavs shoot better from the field, the line, and the 3 point line.  They get more rebounds and more def. rebounds, more steals, more blocks, score more points, get less assists, and have thus far won a lot more games in what everyone would agree is a MUCH tougher division.

I personally hold the team leader/best player/team captain accountable for how the team performs as a unit.  I submit that the statistics show that the superiority of Dirk in terms of offensive efficiency catapult the Mavericks ahead of the Lakers in nearly every offensive statistical category with the lone exception being team assists per game.  And why shouldn't the Lakers be a better passing team as Kobe, it has been shown, is a much better passer than Dirk.  While Dirk and Kobe are comparable in rebounding, the Mavs hold opponents to less offensive rebounds while getting more rebounds and def. rebound per game than the Lakers.  

To sum up, I believe that Kobe is marginally better than Dirk Nowitzki defensively which facilitates the Laker superiority in opponents FG% and ppg.  I think Dirk Nowitzki is far better than Kobe offensively (save passing) in terms of efficiency and production within the flow of the offensive scheme.  Overall I say that Dirk Nowitzki is more valuable than Kobe Bryant as the centerpiece of a team.  Don't get me wrong, Kobe might be the more individually talented basketball player, but I'm going to build around Dirk!  

There are some that say that Kobe Bryant isn't a Top 10 basketball player in the league and I disagree, I can't name 10 players better than him.  For those that say Kobe Bryant isn't a Top 5 basketball player, well I can see where they're coming from.  Truth is I don't know that he is in my top 5, but he's damn close.  But for the people who say that Dirk Nowitzki isn't a Top 10 basketball player, whether he rebounds with "maniacal glee" or not, shows an absolute utter lack of objectivity.
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To sum up, I believe that Kobe is marginally better than Dirk Nowitzki defensively which facilitates the Laker superiority in opponents FG% and ppg.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Another Peter Vecsey type assessment brought to you by Skander!

All things Laker

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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2005, 02:14:34 PM »
right on WOW and Randy :rofl:  :rofl:  as if Dallas 19-6 record means anything  :rofl:  :rofl: Kobees 9-33 loser games have nothing to do with anything  :rofl: maybe if an argument is weak more of these laughys will cover up our weak arsed stance :rofl:  :rofl:    

:rofl: Woops I forgot to enclose  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: Skanders entire quote to take up more bandwidth. B)  :rofl:  

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2005, 02:39:42 PM »
Skandery, exactly who in this thread is getting a verbal lashing aside from Dirk?  You are making it out to sound as if we are bashing Dirk cuz he isnt a Laker and he isnt Kobe.  When really we are just saying (dan and I) that he isnt one of the top 5 in the league because he is not even an average defender.  

Your stats do not reflect what we are talking about, which is the lack of defense in Dirk's game. I dont think Dirk is Shawn Bradley or anything like that, hes a good player.  Just dont feel he should be mentioned along side big men and top 5 players like KG, Shaq, Duncan, AI, and Kobe.  Top 10?  Yes but top 5 players have to do it all.  Thats what seperates them from the rest of the pack.

That block stat is also a little shady only because it shows he blocks shots every game but its not like hes blocking shots because hes patrolling the paint....its because someone is dumb enough to try to shoot over him when they are smaller.  If Dirk was controlling the paint like KG, Duncan, Shaq, Wallace, etc I bet the Dallas Mavs would give SA and PHX a big time run for their money in the playoffs.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 02:59:29 PM by westkoast »
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Offline JoMal

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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2005, 03:43:55 PM »
Comparing stats can never tell the full story when evaluating players. Kobe guards other guards out on the perimeter; Dirk is more likely guarding inside. Put Kobe on the players that Dirk guards or Dirk on the players that Kobe guards and both would get smoked more often then not.

Same with their offensive games. If I am not mistaken, both players are contained within separare offensive systems that require both to play into their strengths. Therefore, you should not expect Dirk to be initiating the offense like Kobe does in LA, which leads to more assists. Likewise, Dirk is 7'0", so rebounding comparisions, even by position, makes littel sense, because the way Dirk gets rebounds differs so much from how Kobe must get his. Dirk clearly has much harder competition to deal with, while rebounding guards are more the exception rather then the rule.

Now, Kobe can handle the ball. This elevates him above just about every other shooting guard outside Philadelphia. This is why Jackson can use him the way he does. It is also why you may not get a complete picture of comparisons of Kobe to other top-level shooting guards, like Rip Hamilton, Bonzi Wells, Eddie House, Michael Redd or even DeShawn Stevenson - all of whom shoot for a higher average then Kobe. If given the same number of shots as Kobe gets per game, theoretically each of these players, given the number of minutes Kobe gets, should average more points. But Kobe gets to the line nearly 10 times, on average, per game. Only Redd comes close to that and that tells us that Kobe is forcing his way into the paint to create and not just shoots jumpers.

Meanwhile, Dirk is practically unstoppable at his position on offense. But he would be if he played like Kobe did. So he gets set up for his shots - big surprise a PF has to get set up for his shots occasionally. Even Chris Webber has to get set up once in a while, and he is the best forward for initiating the offense in the League, including Garrett and Duncan, but that is for another day of comparisons.

But the point is, Dirk works his role to perfection and it shows up in his team's performance and in his ranking amongst the power forwards in the League.

If you guys want to compare these players in their rankings amongst the League's best players, consider who would perform better if they had to reverse their roles. Dirk is a pretty good ball-handler for his size and might be able to initiate the offense like Kobe does just fine. Kobe probably would lead the League in three point shooting, if asked. Neither would shine on their defensive assignments.

Maybe that is the point. They both are being used to focus on their strengths within the systems they are currently in, and their teams both reflect how successful each is in doing their job right.

And WOW, they do not defend each other, so what head to head matchup would matter. Kobe had a great night while Dirk did not. Dirk's team did not win the matchup, but Kobe's game had little to do with how Dirk played and vice versa.

If you play that game, then while Kobe and his Lakers can dominate Dallas, with Kobe scoring 43 and 62 points in the wins, what do you have to say about the last two games the Lakers played against the Timberwolves, where Kobe scored 20 and 35 points, but his team lost to Minnesota and Wally Szczerbiak, who scored 34 and 25? Does this mean Wally must be a better player then Kobe?      
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2005, 03:57:14 PM »
Great points JoMaL and I agree they play off their strengths.  As star players they get the luxury of having the coach focus the team plan around what they do best, surely other players do not get the same treatment as Dirk and Kobe.  

But you lost me in the refrences if they switched positions.   Kobe gets posted up by players he plays against and Dirk often guards perimeter SFs.  Of course if you put Dirk on Allen Iverson he is going to get torched.  Same with putting Kobe on Tim Duncan.  The thing is that often Avery Johnson will put Dampier or one of the other bigger players on that guy that Dirk normally would guard.  One to conserve Dirk's energy for the other end and two because Dirk is not that good of a defender which leads to foul trouble.  Also in the team defense aspect, for a 7 footer, he plays poorly IMO.  No excuse on who he does or doesnt guard when you bring up his weak team defense.   He does not rotate well, he does not rebound with authority, and he certainly does not come over from the weak side to be that 2nd defender to block shots.  Why do you think Dallas went so hard for Dampier and gave him such an inflated contract?  It wasnt to fill the void Bradley left LOL  You could have done that with any basketball player over 6'8.

Also Kobe has not been initating the offense as of late either because Jackson has slid him down to the 3 with Sasha and Parker initiating the offense.   Odom also chips in and for the begging of the season was the main person who initiated the offense.  Ever since the ball has been moving better in the triangle Kobe has not had to initiate the offense like he was before.  

You and Skander cannot say he is a good one on one or team defender.  Given his size and speed he should be able to do what KG does right?  Your boy Brad Miller is a GREAT team defender and solid one on one yet hes not as quick or tall as Dirk.  Why is he three times the defender Dirk is if Dirk is more athletic and longer??  Brad Miller understands how to play good defense......I dont think the same can be said about Dirk.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 04:02:51 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2005, 04:04:39 PM »
westkoast,

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When really we are just saying (dan and I) that he isnt one of the top 5 in the league because he is not even an average defender.

And I'm saying that I disagree with that assesment.  My point is Dirk has *more* claim than Kobe to being a top 5 player in the league and I think he is an underrated, above-average defender.  

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Your stats do not reflect what we are talking about, which is the lack of defense in Dirk's game.

Actually they DO reflect what I'm talking about, the statistics show Dirk is a better shot-blocking big man than Kobe Bryant a steal guard.  I also went on to say that Kobe Bryant is "marginally" better than Dirk defensively.  In no way did my statement that Kobe was better assert that Dirk's game is devoid of any defense at all.  

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That block stat is also a little shady only because it shows he blocks shots every game but its not like hes blocking shots because hes patrolling the paint

I think the fact that Dirk leads the Mavericks in rebounds and is second on the team in blocks DOES show that he is "patroling the paint."

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.....its because someone is dumb enough to try to shoot over him when they are smaller.

Completely irrelevant!  Its like saying, "Kobe only gets steals because someone is dumb enough to try and pass on him."

 
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If Dirk was controlling the paint like KG, Duncan, Shaq, Wallace, etc I bet the Dallas Mavs would give SA and PHX a big time run for their money in the playoffs.

They've played San An and Phoenix each twice so far this season their record is 3-1.  The one loss was a 2 point squeaker by San An in which Nowitzki went an uncharacteristic 3-13.  Whether the Mavs put their playoff woes behind them remains to be seen.

One thing westkoast, thanks for actually engaging in an intelligent conversation instead of just dotting the board with smilies like your fan-mates.      
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Guest_Randy

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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2005, 04:10:42 PM »
That's funny, Skander

Who included TEAM stats into their discussion?  Not me!  And why?  Because the Lakers are loaded with a lot of young talent like the Mavs?  Yeah, that's it!  

As for Dirk defensively, I'd like to find just ONE person who agreed with you that Dirk plays defense!  I think that Dirk is a very solid rebounder -- but as a defender, he is POOR!  Dallas has made a LOT of strides defensively but it's because of players like Howard, Daniels, etc. rather than Dirk!

You can compare Dirk and Kobe's team whenever they get comparable talent -- until then you are talking about apples and oranges!

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2005, 04:13:24 PM »
Skandery so because Dirk blocks more shots than Kobe steals he is a better defender?!  :huh:

Kobe is not someone who steals alot of balls from the other team.  Nor is someone who gets alot of steals automatically  a good defender.  There are no stats for frustrating players they are put on.  There is also no stat that directly shows a shooting % when an individual player is on them.  There is also better 1, 2, and 3s in this league offensively than there is PFs.  You seem to be alone in thinking Dirk is an above-average defender because Ive yet to see him make any of the nba defensive teams.  Any player from 1-3 who gets off Kobe gets the assignment of defending them if they start to get hot.  Would you put Dirk on any 3-5 who got hot?

We can debate on if Dirk is more qualified to be in the top 5....not sure what you base that off of because the stats are heavily in Kobe's favor from points, to assists, to their teams head to head match ups but I respect your opinion.  Dont really need to flood the board with more Laker talk or Id say we could make another thread on it LOL

edit: Randy you are forgetting their best defender in Eddie Griffith also.  Not to mention Avery Johnson comes from the school of Greg Popavich so that says something.  Dirk has not improved his defensive game yet other players they brought in have.  Brad Miller is the perfect example, hes less athletic than Dirk is yet hes the better defender of the two......its because mentally he is better on that end of the court.

Skandery how is what I said about players shooting overh im irrelevant?  He isnt getting his blocked shots from controlling the paint like 7 footers should.  He is getting them from players on the perimeter dumb enough to try to shoot over him.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 04:17:35 PM by westkoast »
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Offline JoMal

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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2005, 04:24:02 PM »
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Great points JoMaL and I agree they play off their strengths.  As star players they get the luxury of having the coach focus the team plan around what they do best, surely other players do not get the same treatment as Dirk and Kobe.  

But you lost me in the refrences if they switched positions.   Kobe gets posted up by players he plays against and Dirk often guards perimeter SFs.  Of course if you put Dirk on Allen Iverson he is going to get torched.  Same with putting Kobe on Tim Duncan.  The thing is that often Avery Johnson will put Dampier or one of the other bigger players on that guy that Dirk normally would guard.  One to conserve Dirk's energy for the other end and two because Dirk is not that good of a defender which leads to foul trouble.  Also in the team defense aspect, for a 7 footer, he plays poorly IMO.  No excuse on who he does or doesnt guard when you bring up his weak team defense.   He does not rotate well, he does not rebound with authority, and he certainly does not come over from the weak side to be that 2nd defender to block shots.  Why do you think Dallas went so hard for Dampier and gave him such an inflated contract?  It wasnt to fill the void Bradley left LOL  You could have done that with any basketball player over 6'8.

Also Kobe has not been initating the offense as of late either because Jackson has slid him down to the 3 with Sasha and Parker initiating the offense.   Odom also chips in and for the begging of the season was the main person who initiated the offense.  Ever since the ball has been moving better in the triangle Kobe has not had to initiate the offense like he was before.  

You and Skander cannot say he is a good one on one or team defender.  Given his size and speed he should be able to do what KG does right?  Your boy Brad Miller is a GREAT team defender and solid one on one yet hes not as quick or tall as Dirk.  Why is he three times the defender Dirk is if Dirk is more athletic and longer??  Brad Miller understands how to play good defense......I dont think the same can be said about Dirk.
Well....Brad has not been defending all that well of late, so you might want to hold judgement in comparing Dirk to him.

But you brought up a point that needs asking. If Dirk is being "hidden" on defense by not being asked to defend the toughest big guy on opposing teams, both for his stamina and faults in the area, would Jackson try the same thing with Kobe? Regardless of how good a defender Bryant is, the effort to defend and then fall back on offfense would drain even a player of Kobe's merits over the course of a game. So I would think that Jackson may switch him as well, to save him over time.

My only point about Dirk and Kobe switching positions is that you really can not compare them as they are used in their respective systems because they do not play the same position, so they are not asked to play the same type of game, so comparing them for greatness is too objective to satisfy an evaluation of their play.

I will tell you this, neither could play the other's position anywhere near as well, so putting Dirk and Kobe both in the top five in the League is completely sensible considering that other teams have to plan on how to stop these guys.

Maybe comparing the average amount of practice time other teams put into their gameplans to do just that would be a better way to evaluate how good they are.  
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2005, 04:33:08 PM »
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You can compare Dirk and Kobe's team whenever they get comparable talent

I was waiting for someone to bring this one up.  How could I bring Team Stats into the discussion? For Shame!!  Why of course Dallas (and by association Dirk) will end up smelling rosier as they have SO MUCH more talent than the Lakers.  Randy, please spare me the old "Lakers are a worthless roster except for Kobe" sctick.  Its really getting old.  The bottom line is Kobe and Dirk share the unique gift of being team captains who happen to be the best players on their team who also happen to play the most minutes for their team.  If you follow that simple logic, you can see how that shared attribute can be used to stipulate that team success, offensively AND defensively, has a great deal to do with their respective individual play on the court.

As for Dirk defensively, he's not a bad one on one defender, and that's saying something considering the overwhelming talent at the PF position, especially in the Western Conference.  For a 7 footer, he is quicker on his feet defensively than most 7 footers in the league.  As a post defender, he's quite successful in denying position, but is susceptible to being over-powered.  And here is the part of his defensive game that is greatly over-looked, Dirk is actually a GOOD pick-n-roll defender (except against Steve Nash--that guy kills him).  Now as a rotator, I agree, he's awful.  Very rarely does he have the presence to help on the weak side, and one could make an argument he isn't asked to be the main weak side help either (that's Diop and Dampier's job).  Dirk Nowitzki is not a "gifted" defender nor does he expend all his energy to "become" one, he knows he has to shoulder the burden of putting points on the board for the Mavs.  

My opinion is just because he is possibly the most gifted all-around offensively talented 7 footers to ever play the game, we tend to forget that he ain't chopped liver on the other side either.  
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2005, 04:45:32 PM »
JoMaL

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My only point about Dirk and Kobe switching positions is that you really can not compare them as they are used in their respective systems because they do not play the same position, so they are not asked to play the same type of game, so comparing them for greatness is too objective to satisfy an evaluation of their play.

I will tell you this, neither could play the other's position anywhere near as well, so putting Dirk and Kobe both in the top five in the League is completely sensible considering that other teams have to plan on how to stop these guys.

I do agree with you that is very difficult to compare two players that don't play the same position.  But alas, top 5 lists don't take position into account.  Sometimes we are forced into comparing two players with vast difference in their game.  It comes up every single time a Bill Russell vs. Michael Jordan argument springs up as to who is the GOAT.  And whats worst with that argument is they didn't even play in the same era.  

I agree with you that someone would be sensible to have both Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki in their top 5 list.  Now I'll take issue with the notion that Dirk Nowizki place in the top 5 or worst top 10 is laughable.

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Maybe comparing the average amount of practice time other teams put into their gameplans to do just that would be a better way to evaluate how good they are.   

I wish I had access to this information.  
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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2005, 04:57:30 PM »
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And WOW, they do not defend each other, so what head to head matchup would matter. Kobe had a great night while Dirk did not. Dirk's team did not win the matchup, but Kobe's game had little to do with how Dirk played and vice versa.
 
I was just being a bastard to Skandelous, didn't have time to debunk his points and stats.

And I'm being lazy right now as well cuase I should have begun my assault on the Kings to justify my points about Dirk, Kobe, Mavs and Lakers.  It's only logical.
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2005, 05:01:28 PM »
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I was just being a bastard to Skandelous, didn't have time to debunk his points and stats.

And I'm being lazy right now as well cuase I should have begun my assault on the Kings to justify my points about Dirk, Kobe, Mavs and Lakers. It's only logical.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:





  ;)  
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2005, 05:01:57 PM »
Quote
Quote
You can compare Dirk and Kobe's team whenever they get comparable talent

I was waiting for someone to bring this one up.  How could I bring Team Stats into the discussion? For Shame!!  Why of course Dallas (and by association Dirk) will end up smelling rosier as they have SO MUCH more talent than the Lakers.  Randy, please spare me the old "Lakers are a worthless roster except for Kobe" sctick.  Its really getting old.  The bottom line is Kobe and Dirk share the unique gift of being team captains who happen to be the best players on their team who also happen to play the most minutes for their team.  If you follow that simple logic, you can see how that shared attribute can be used to stipulate that team success, offensively AND defensively, has a great deal to do with their respective individual play on the court.

As for Dirk defensively, he's not a bad one on one defender, and that's saying something considering the overwhelming talent at the PF position, especially in the Western Conference.  For a 7 footer, he is quicker on his feet defensively than most 7 footers in the league.  As a post defender, he's quite successful in denying position, but is susceptible to being over-powered.  And here is the part of his defensive game that is greatly over-looked, Dirk is actually a GOOD pick-n-roll defender (except against Steve Nash--that guy kills him).  Now as a rotator, I agree, he's awful.  Very rarely does he have the presence to help on the weak side, and one could make an argument he isn't asked to be the main weak side help either (that's Diop and Dampier's job).  Dirk Nowitzki is not a "gifted" defender nor does he expend all his energy to "become" one, he knows he has to shoulder the burden of putting points on the board for the Mavs.  

My opinion is just because he is possibly the most gifted all-around offensively talented 7 footers to ever play the game, we tend to forget that he ain't chopped liver on the other side either.
There is no doubt he is one of the best all around 7 footers on offense.  KG and him are the captains of that boat.  I hope you guys are not taking me being critical of Dirk as me saying he sucks a fat one.  Not true.  I just think you are overrating his defense or should I say looking at his defense from a differen perspective than I am.  I expect 7 footers to control paint or at least make an attempt.  KG doesnt control the paint like TD...but he does try and does do a good job.  I can't say I think Dirk does.  Now whether he is not asked to be the weak side help defender or control the paint.  I guess we can only assume.  Logically you would think hes asked to mainly focus on the offensive end but knowing Avery Johnson and where he played....id say that he is not being asked to just focus in on that side.  Dallas is a better team this year than the last few based on AJ improving the team defense.  IMO Dirk is the weakest link because he should be doing more due to his size and speed.

JoMaL--  PJ bases if Kobe plays the best defender on schudele and how his legs look.  He does, most of the time, specifically get matched up to play the best offensive weapon and then is still expected to score.  So far this year he has done that, two times come to mind recently  in MIL against Micheal Redd and up in SEA against Ray Allen.  He also was put on Steve Nash for long periods of time against PHX.  The one time this year he was not put on the best player was in the Houston game the other night.  I believe he got 2 fouls quick so PJ brought in George who played him solid for the entire time up until the last 3 seconds of the game.  I agree I do not think in every situation Kobe is going to defend the best player and then still expected to score alot.  He seems to get pumped up for it though and I think thats why Jackson lets him take a crack at it.  Hes done very well one on one this year.

I guess we can agree to disagree LOL.  You guys brought up good points though.  Best case ive heard made for Dirk.....but hes still not a top 5 player IMO.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 05:04:43 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Skandery

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Kobe-wan!
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2005, 05:22:02 PM »
Quote
I guess we can agree to disagree LOL.

We can at that.  In the meantime, I have some pretty pictures for you to enjoy.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/photo;_ylt=AlZ..._dna107&prov=ap

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/photo;_ylt=AvP...camb102&prov=ap

Now that's patrolin'  

 :up:  
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."