Rebounds = Rings

[WayOutWest]

Since we are quizing people in this thread.......

Who can name a championship team that did not play good defense that year???

You cannot argue that defense is more important than offense for the simple fact that offense comes and goes.  Defense doesnt.

2002, 2003 & 2004 Kings and Mavs.
2004 Suns.


Oh...wait....nevermind

[westkoast]

QUOTE (rickortreat @ Nov 30 2005, 09:04 PM)
Name one team that has won a championship without executing in the half court and I'll believe you.

1987 Los Angeles Lakers

They did not execute in the half court, they just ran the Celts off the court. In Finals games were it came down to a half court grind the Lakers were 1-2 (Game 3-Loss, 4-Win & 5-Loss).

Those were two of the best post-up scoring teams ever.  Kareem and his skyhook, Worthy and his above the rim play.  Kevin McHale in the post, rebounding by the Chief and tremendous passing inside and out by Larry Bird.

Simply because the Celtics were as good if not better in the half-court game, didn't make up for their deficiencies in stopping the Lakers from running- ELIMINATING THE DEFENCE ENTIRELY!!!!

Only because the Lakers could get more rebounds and get magic loose on the break did they win that series.  It may not have been half-court, but it was OFFENSE, wasn't it?

Rick there defense is what got them on the break in the first place   :huh:   If the Celtics were scoring at will on them then they would have forced the Lakers into the half court set as oppose to Magic running the floor.

I cannot think of a single team who has won the championship in the last 15-16 years that was a bad defensive team.  When your Sixers made it to the finals it was because of how well they were playing defense.  The Sixers offense still centers around AI and he is scoring just as much as he always has, yet they havent had the same success.  The year you guys made it to the finals you had Mutumbo controlling the paint, AI jumping into every passing lane, McKie stopping guys with his one on one defense, and Eric Snow slowing down penetration.

[rickortreat]

No question that the Sixers got to the finals on defense- but they DIDNT WIN!!!!

Instead it was the team with the inside scorer, Mr. Unstoppable himself, Shaq that won that series.  The Sixers defense had no answer for him.

It was a real shame that the Sixers team did not reach the finals that year intact. Ratliff was far more effective for them in the middle than Mutumbo.

It was amazing watching that team play, because their defense was so continuous and persistant that without effort they would start opening up a lead on other teams.  They would get an extra 2 points every 2 minutes of play or so, just playing their normal style.

Rick there defense is what got them on the break in the first place huh.gif If the Celtics were scoring at will on them then they would have forced the Lakers into the half court set as oppose to Magic running the floor.

Actually that Laker team managed to get the break going even after a made basket.  They were extremely efficient at getting the ball back into play, into Magic's hands.  The rest of the team all knew that beating their defender down the floor would lead to an easy bucket.  I can't remember those box scores, but those Celtic teams didn't miss many shots.  The Lakers had no answer for McHale posting up.  In all likelihood, what won that series for the Lakers was Bird's bad back!  

[westkoast]

No question that the Sixers got to the finals on defense- but they DIDNT WIN!!!!

Instead it was the team with the inside scorer, Mr. Unstoppable himself, Shaq that won that series.  The Sixers defense had no answer for him.

It was a real shame that the Sixers team did not reach the finals that year intact. Ratliff was far more effective for them in the middle than Mutumbo.

It was amazing watching that team play, because their defense was so continuous and persistant that without effort they would start opening up a lead on other teams.  They would get an extra 2 points every 2 minutes of play or so, just playing their normal style.

Rick there defense is what got them on the break in the first place huh.gif If the Celtics were scoring at will on them then they would have forced the Lakers into the half court set as oppose to Magic running the floor.

Actually that Laker team managed to get the break going even after a made basket.  They were extremely efficient at getting the ball back into play, into Magic's hands.  The rest of the team all knew that beating their defender down the floor would lead to an easy bucket.  I can't remember those box scores, but those Celtic teams didn't miss many shots.  The Lakers had no answer for McHale posting up.  In all likelihood, what won that series for the Lakers was Bird's bad back!

Are you also forgetting Mr. Unstopable pulling down  double digit rebounds each game and keeping AI out of the paint as much as possible?  Or how him scoring kept the tempo slow like the Lakers wanted to play?  Or how him scoring allowed the defense to get fully set?

Or how about Ty Lue shadowing AI?  That was a major part of that series.  While Lue didnt stop AI he was at least able to stay with him which made the difference.  He was torching our backcourt with his speed and breaking down the interior defense causing Shaq and co to get fouls.

That whole entire run that year in the playoffs was not because of offense but was because of defense that they went 15-1.  They certainly werent beating the Spurs Mavs-style they were beating the Spurs because they were able to squeeze Duncan in the middle and force him to pass to guys who couldnt nail the shots.  They were the best defensive team in the league that year  :huh:  

IMO Mutumbo played Shaq about as good as he could.  He just doesn't have enough weight to bang.  Ratliff would have been nice to see.  I remember when he went down I thought the Sixers were going to be hurting cuz he was what AK-47 is now.

[WayOutWest]

The Lakers had no answer for McHale posting up.  In all likelihood, what won that series for the Lakers was Bird's bad back!

rick,

Your memory is not very good.

M Thompson was the answer to stopping McHale.  McHale COULD NOT fake out Thompson.  It was amazing to watch McHale throw four or five moves at Thompson with no effect.  In the end Mycal could not stop McHale but he diffinatley slowed him down and force him to shot over Thompson.  Against Green and Kareem McHale would get layups after a pump fake or two or an up and under move.

Unlike the Sixers title runs the Lakers did NOT need any help from the injury bug.  Bird's back did not become an issue until 1990 against the Pacers.  There were no problems with Bird's back when the Lakers last beat them in the finals.  The only problem with the Celtics was McHale's stress fracture in his foot.  It did not seem to affect him.  There was also Walton's season long injuries as well but that wasn't something that suddenly appeared in the playoffs, he was on the bench all year.

[Reality]

Your memory is not very good.

M Thompson was the answer to stopping McHale.  McHale COULD NOT fake out Thompson.  It was amazing to watch McHale throw four or five moves at Thompson with no effect.  In the end Mycal could not stop McHale but he diffinatley slowed him down and force him to shot over Thompson.  Against Green and Kareem McHale would get layups after a pump fake or two or an up and under move.

Unlike the Sixers title runs the Lakers did NOT need any help from the injury bug.  Bird's back did not become an issue until 1990 against the Pacers.  There were no problems with Bird's back when the Lakers last beat them in the finals.  The only problem with the Celtics was McHale's stress fracture in his foot.  It did not seem to affect him.  There was also Walton's season long injuries as well but that wasn't something that suddenly appeared in the playoffs, he was on the bench all year.

 :rofl:
rick

87
Lenny Bias died prior to the '87 season.
Billy Walton 6th man of the year in the '86 Celts title, was out.
McHale wasn't bothered at all, that is why he limped up the court half the time.

With all that it was McHale and Parish fighting over the same rebound, losing the ball with 6 seconds left that gave the Lakers a chance to avoid a 2-2 tie and get the win in Game 4.

Start of the 87 season David Sternfish suspendned the two starting guards for Houston for 30 games.  Hou just kicked the Lakers asses in the 86 playoffs and as they were the only formadible West Conf playoff foe the Flamers had to face thruout the 8s.  Stern helped take care of that.

Lakers picked up Michele Thompsan in another **trade** midway thru the 87 season.   They needed a forward badly, only the Laker House trivial pursuit game will tell you who they had to **give up** to recieve Thompson.  Almost as good as Gail Goodrich for Magic.

The Lakers fought their way thru another tough West Conf battle by eliminating  Denver (37-45), Golden State (42-40), and Seattle (39-43).  Wooo.   Wow that is Hollywood rough.  As Celts and Sixers were duking it out thru the early and mid 80s.

1988.  Bird had foot surgery 6 games in, missing the entire season.  

So there you have two flowery titles.

[Reality]

Total # of rebounds isn't a good stat to look at.  fg%, ftm's, to's, all effect total rebounds.  Rebounding % (defensive and offensive) is the key rebounding stat.

Yeah it gives a benchmark but does not tell all.

I think f.g. % winner is around 90% on the Champ side.
As we know, more accurate is f.g. % on trips down the floor, ie miss but followed by 2 O rebounds and make.  In books its 33% that trip up the floor but that stat is misleading as end result was two points in one trip.

[westkoast]

"Start of the 87 season David Sternfish suspendned the two starting guards for Houston for 30 games. Hou just kicked the Lakers asses in the 86 playoffs and as they were the only formadible West Conf playoff foe the Flamers had to face thruout the 8s. Stern helped take care of that."


:rolleyes:

Ya the reason why they were suspended was for the sole purpose of making sure the Lakers were able to get deep in the playoffs.


I still dont see how offense is more important than defense when consistancy is something any pro team needs to be a champion.  Offense in any sport is not consistant and never will be.  Defense however is only inconsistant when players are being dumb/lazy.

[Reality]

:rolleyes:

Ya the reason why they were suspended was for the sole purpose of making sure the Lakers were able to get deep in the playoffs.


I still dont see how offense is more important than defense when consistancy is something any pro team needs to be a champion.  Offense in any sport is not consistant and never will be.  Defense however is only inconsistant when players are being dumb/lazy.

In the context of their WC opponents in the 80s, I am glad to see you accepting light.  We shall sneak you out of the Laker House another time, another place.


We were talking rebounds, but on the offense/defense point I my stance is not nor never has been that either is all encompassing.  To me you must have both.  How your team plays offense greatly affects your teams positioning for defense once the ball transitions.  I think they are equally important.

I do agree with your point that offense can come and go while good D can and should be played consistently.

However great D must be accompanied by O in many Champ runs.  Pop and his great D were on the verge of being eliminated by Dallas in '03.  Steve Kerr and Steven Jackson bailed him out.  Current team look at the Van Grunty Rockets.
 

[WayOutWest]

Ya the reason why they were suspended was for the sole purpose of making sure the Lakers were able to get deep in the playoffs.
 

He's right westkoast.  Their documented COCAINE habbit had nothing to do with their suspension.  Stern also suspended Roy Tarpley and his COCAINe habit from Dallas cause they pushed the Lakers to 7 games in WCF.

Reality's memory is not much better than ricks.  In the East the powerhouses were Boston, Detroit, Milwakee, Atlanta & Cleveland.

[Joe Vancil]

Start of the 87 season David Sternfish suspendned the two starting guards for Houston for 30 games. Hou just kicked the Lakers asses in the 86 playoffs and as they were the only formadible West Conf playoff foe the Flamers had to face thruout the 8s. Stern helped take care of that.

Excuse me, but Mitchell Wiggins wasn't a starter.  He came off the bench for that team.  Lewis Lloyd was the starter at 2-guard, and Mitchell Wiggins was his backup.

And before you start with me that Lewis Lloyd started at small forward, NO, he didn't.  Rodney McCray started at small forward.

 

[WayOutWest]

Start of the 87 season David Sternfish suspendned the two starting guards for Houston for 30 games. Hou just kicked the Lakers asses in the 86 playoffs and as they were the only formadible West Conf playoff foe the Flamers had to face thruout the 8s. Stern helped take care of that.

Excuse me, but Mitchell Wiggins wasn't a starter.  He came off the bench for that team.  Lewis Lloyd was the starter at 2-guard, and Mitchell Wiggins was his backup.

And before you start with me that Lewis Lloyd started at small forward, NO, he didn't.  Rodney McCray started at small forward.

Joe,

Where any of those starters COCAINE FIENDS like the suspended guards?

[Reality]

Excuse me, but Mitchell Wiggins wasn't a starter.  He came off the bench for that team.  Lewis Lloyd was the starter at 2-guard, and Mitchell Wiggins was his backup.

And before you start with me that Lewis Lloyd started at small forward, NO, he didn't.  Rodney McCray started at small forward.

Joe,

Where any of those starters COCAINE FIENDS like the suspended guards? [/quote]
 Had no intention of calling Lloyd a small forward.  Enjoyed him too much as guard taking apart Tragic.  As for Wiggins, he played 24 minutes a game and even more in the playoffs.  You'll have to do Laker math for me to see how that makes him a backup to Lloyd.  He came in for John Lucas more often.  Those two together (LLoyd and Wiggins) smoked as guards in 86 vs Goldies.

So Wiggings only played 24 minutes a game.  Had nothing to do with ousting your Lakers. :rolleyes:

Yeah WOW Coop and Magic walking down the tunnel making coke remarks when they thought CBS had the mics off.  No way any Lakers or for that matter many others in the NBA doing coke in 1986-7.  Just no way.  Doesn't happen in Kansas. B)

Also this minutes per game huge difference sure does undo Lenny Bias, Billy W, that ferousiousth 87 Westhern Conferensth.

 

[Joe Vancil]

Those two together (LLoyd and Wiggins) smoked as guards in 86 vs Goldies.

Actually, I don't believe those two together "smoked."  I believe they together "snorted."

Come on!  They were coke fiends!  Them and Lucas.  You can't defend them just because they had a good series.

 

[westkoast]

:rolleyes:

Ya the reason why they were suspended was for the sole purpose of making sure the Lakers were able to get deep in the playoffs.


I still dont see how offense is more important than defense when consistancy is something any pro team needs to be a champion.  Offense in any sport is not consistant and never will be.  Defense however is only inconsistant when players are being dumb/lazy.

In the context of their WC opponents in the 80s, I am glad to see you accepting light.  We shall sneak you out of the Laker House another time, another place.


We were talking rebounds, but on the offense/defense point I my stance is not nor never has been that either is all encompassing.  To me you must have both.  How your team plays offense greatly affects your teams positioning for defense once the ball transitions.  I think they are equally important.

I do agree with your point that offense can come and go while good D can and should be played consistently.

However great D must be accompanied by O in many Champ runs.  Pop and his great D were on the verge of being eliminated by Dallas in '03.  Steve Kerr and Steven Jackson bailed him out.  Current team look at the Van Grunty Rockets.

I agree that you do need to have an offense than can at least score the ball when need be.  When I say defense wins championships I dont mean that offense has nothing to do with it.  Offense is important, just not equally IMO.  You do bring up a good point that good offense helps with defense.....just like the defense creates easy baskets for the offense.  So it does go both ways in that sense.  The thing is that no matter what there is going to be times when your team cannot score.  There should be no reason for a good team to play poor defense for an entire game.

The problem in what I call the 'Kerr series' was just as much about the Spurs unable to stop the Mavs from scoring as it was Pop not using the right personel to get the job done.  The Spurs werent stopping the Mavs and then they didnt have shooters who could hit the shots.  If they were stopping the Mavs and unable to score on the other end it wouldnt have been so bad.