Author Topic: Gay Marriage  (Read 4748 times)

TheloMonk

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Gay Marriage
« on: March 04, 2004, 11:41:03 PM »
I was browsing the board when I came upon the thread on gay marriage.
I hope you don’t mind a “stranger” commenting on something so personal and controversial.

First:  Marriage is not a religious ceremony to be dictated by religious doctrine.  Case in point, I can go down to my nearest church, temple, mosque or chapel and participate in a wedding ceremony performed by the local clergy.  However, unless I have a marriage license issued by the state its not a legal marriage. Marriage is a civil contract and that every consenting adult should have the RIGHT to enter as long it does not bring harm to anyone. I really appreciate the concept of no taxation without representation.  So, if the State wants to leave me a little extra in my paycheck every month as a result of denying me this RIGHT, I’m all for it.  No one is suggesting that “Churches” should be forced to marry same sex couples or anyone else for that matter.  As a matter of fact there are currently churches that will not marry someone who’s been divorced.   Its their right!   Just as I have the right to live my life based on my own Moral code, as long as my actions do not infringe on the rights of others.  

Second: The whole “homosexual-morality” issue is very much in the Semitic Religion tradition (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). All three are based in the Torah and if you read the New Testament and the Koran you will see that they both are very much in reaction to Judaism.  One the other hand doctrines of religions such as Buddhism and Hindu never mention homosexuality.  

Buddhism:  The Buddha suggests three criteria for making moral judgments—1.) act towards others the way we would like them to act towards us 2) don’t engage in any behavior which causes harm to oneself and others & 3) behavior can be considered right (skillful) or wrong (unskillful) according to whether or not it helps us to attain our goal—Nirvana.  In Buddhism actions are considered “skillful” if they are based upon generosity, love and understanding. Unskillful acts are those that are based upon subterfuge, deceit and disregard for others.  The Buddha does mention the following types of “unskillful” sexual behavior: no adultery; no sex with girls still under the charge of their parents (too young to make a decision about sex); no sex with brothers, sisters or relatives; no sex with married women; no sex with female prisoners (not in a position to have free choice) and no sex with those already engaged to another. In Buddhism actions are considered “skillful” if they are based upon generosity, love and understanding

Hinduism: I’m not as well versed in Hindu doctrine but I do know that unlike Semitic religions Hinduism does not attempt to separate spirituality from sexuality. The four Vedas only condemns that which acts in opposition to love.  In the Rig-Veda sculptures and vestiges depict sexual acts between women as revelations of a feminine world where sexuality was based on pleasure. Also, Sodomy was performed in the Tantric rituals of the Karma Sutra.  Within in Hindu culture sexuality was seen as a natural expressing of desire.  It is believed that this remained true until the Victorian puritanical values that came with British colonialism began to blatantly repress all sexual expression

The following quote appears on the Jefferson Memorial.  It’s taken from a letter to Samuel Kerchvel in 1816:
“I am certainly not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors”
 

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Gay Marriage
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2004, 12:14:14 AM »
Can't see anyone arguing against you.  If you speak about basketball like you do this topic then I don't mind a stranger comming to express their opinion.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2004, 01:16:20 AM »
That quote from Jefferson was read on Bill Mahr's (sic) show and make sense, not sure how you can argue that YET... when I discuss the concept with some people I get the Sodom and Ghemora (sic) lecture.  They progressed themselves into anialation.

Hope you stick around regardless about what you want to discuss.

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Offline ziggy

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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2004, 01:55:54 AM »
The backers of same sax marriage are arguing that same sex marriage is a civil rights issue.  They claim it is a civil rights issue, because the decision by the state to outlaw such marriages creates an economic burden on those who are denied same sex marriage, because they do not have the same rights as those who are allowed opposite sex marriage.
This is a bogus arguement.  Throughout the history of this country we as a society have chosen to limit, restrict, outlaw, or discourage, behavior, activities, or social and business arrangements.  Many specific activities are licensed, or have specific requirments that must be met before they can be performed.  I am not a trained physician, have not gone to medical school, and have not passed the states medical licensing boards requirements to become a practicing physican.  I cannot get a license to practice medicine.  Society has determined that they want only specifically trained physicans to practice medicine.  Just because this places an economic burden on me does not mean that my civil rights have been violated.
The same could be said for many other licensed professions.  I do not have a commercial drivers license, so I cannot drive a semi truck.  I do not have a law degree and I haven't passed the bar exam, so I cannot practice law.  There are any number of other occupations that I am unable to perform because I do not meet the minimum requirements set by the states.  Each time that I am restricted from performing an activity, and economic burden is placed on me, and it does not violate my civil rights.
Some states in the US are right to work states, meaning that you can choose not to be a union member at a company that has been organized as a union shop.  Some states do not afford me those same rights.  If the company I work for is a union shop, then I AM REQUIRED to be a member of the union, and I am required to pay union dues.  This creates an economic burden on me, as I am being forced to pay union dues when I do not wish to be a member of the union.  This is not considered to be a violation of my civil rights, even though it creates an economic burden on me.  If I am a union member then I am required to have the union be the SOLE bargining agent for me, and I am unable to bargain for my own terms and conditions of employment with my employer.  This can impact my economic well being, but it is not considered to be a violation of my civil rights.
Society has always reserved the right to restrict certain parts of society, and same sex marriage is no different.  No person is being treated differently.  ALL PERSONS are free to be married, but if you choose to be married, it must be to a member of the opposite sex, and both people in the marriage must be of the age of legal maturity.  Those are the restrictions placed by society upon the arrangement of marriage.
If it is deemed that society does not have the ability to set restrictions and limitations upon marriage, such as outlawing same sex marriage, then society does not have the ability to set any restrictions of any kind on marriage.  Presently it is not legal for relatives closer than second cousins to marry.  It is not legal for people to engage in multiple marriages at the same time.  It is not legal for multiple people to engage to marriage together.  It is not legal for an adult and a child to marry.  Each of these restrict the exact same things as a ban on same sex marriage, and if banning same sex marriage is a civil rights violation then banning these are also civil rights violations.

Good people can disagree on the rightness or wrongness of same sex marriage.  In the end though society has the final say.  If society chooses to outlaw it then it is a REQUIREMENT of the elected officials to up hold that law.  If they wantonly violate that law, they are in breach of their legal responsibilities and should be removed from office, and should be prosecuted for breaking the law.  If your elected officals deliberately violate that social contract you are but one step removed from anarchy.  That is the situation in the State of Oregon, because of the decisions by a group of four elected officals.  The State of Oregon has decided that physician assisted suicide is legal.  I personally find this law to be abhorrent, but the people of this society have decided that they are willing to allow it.  That is part of the social contract I find highly offensive, but as a society we have decided to allow it.  I have no choice but to accept that, which I do.  The same goes for abortions.  I may find to be offensive, but we as a society have allowed it be legal.  As such I may find it offensive, and I can work to change it, but I would never condone or support the killing or injuring of a Dr. that chooses to perform it.

I also find ridiculous the latest arguements against a constitutional amendment identifying marriage as between a man and a women.  The standard argument is that we should be careful about changing the constitution willy nilly.  These are the same people who support the judicial activism that creates new constitutional rights out of thin air from the state and federal bench.  These are also the same people who argue over and over that the constituion is a living breathing document, and must be added to and changed with the changes that happen in society.  But when society wishes to specifically codify into the constitution what it deems to be specific parts of the social contract, those who wish to do so are engaging in a behavior that is bad for the society.  In other words we should not decide for ourselves what we want our social contract to be, we should allow appointed judges to make those decisions for us.
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Offline TheloMonk

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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2004, 04:31:24 AM »
Quote
The backers of same sax marriage are arguing that same sex marriage is a civil rights issue.  They claim it is a civil rights issue, because the decision by the state to outlaw such marriages creates an economic burden on those who are denied same sex marriage, because they do not have the same rights as those who are allowed opposite sex marriage.  

I am not a trained physician, have not gone to medical school, and have not passed the states medical licensing boards requirements to become a practicing physican.  I cannot get a license to practice medicine.  Society has determined that they want only specifically trained physicans to practice medicine.  Just because this places an economic burden on me does not mean that my civil rights have been violated.

First, civil rights refer to discrimination or a denial of equal protection of the laws under the Constitution because of race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin.  Not education or professional license.  
Society has always reserved the right to restrict certain parts of society, and same sex marriage is no different.  No person is being treated differently.  ALL PERSONS are free to be married, but if you choose to be married, it must be to a member of the opposite sex, and both people in the marriage must be of the age of legal maturity.  Those are the restrictions placed by society upon the arrangement of marriage.
If it is deemed that society does not have the ability to set restrictions and limitations upon marriage, such as outlawing same sex marriage, then society does not have the ability to set any restrictions of any kind on marriage.  Presently it is not legal for relatives closer than second cousins to marry.  It is not legal for people to engage in multiple marriages at the same time.  It is not legal for multiple people to engage to marriage together.  It is not legal for an adult and a child to marry.  Each of these restrict the exact same things as a ban on same sex marriage, and if banning same sex marriage is a civil rights violation then banning these are also civil rights violations.

Good people can disagree on the rightness or wrongness of same sex marriage.  In the end though society has the final say.  If society chooses to outlaw it then it is a REQUIREMENT of the elected officials to up hold that law.  If they wantonly violate that law, they are in breach of their legal responsibilities and should be removed from office, and should be prosecuted for breaking the law.  If your elected officals deliberately violate that social contract you are but one step removed from anarchy.  That is the situation in the State of Oregon, because of the decisions by a group of four elected officals.  The State of Oregon has decided that physician assisted suicide is legal.  I personally find this law to be abhorrent, but the people of this society have decided that they are willing to allow it.  That is part of the social contract I find highly offensive, but as a society we have decided to allow it.  I have no choice but to accept that, which I do.  The same goes for abortions.  I may find to be offensive, but we as a society have allowed it be legal.  As such I may find it offensive, and I can work to change it, but I would never condone or support the killing or injuring of a Dr. that chooses to perform it.

I also find ridiculous the latest arguements against a constitutional amendment identifying marriage as between a man and a women.  The standard argument is that we should be careful about changing the constitution willy nilly.  These are the same people who support the judicial activism that creates new constitutional rights out of thin air from the state and federal bench.  These are also the same people who argue over and over that the constituion is a living breathing document, and must be added to and changed with the changes that happen in society.  But when society wishes to specifically codify into the constitution what it deems to be specific parts of the social contract, those who wish to do so are engaging in a behavior that is bad for the society.  In other words we should not decide for ourselves what we want our social contract to be, we should allow appointed judges to make those decisions for us.
"The backers of same sax marriage are arguing that same sex marriage is a civil rights issue.  They claim it is a civil rights issue, because the decision by the state to outlaw such marriages creates an economic burden on those who are denied same sex marriage, because they do not have the same rights as those who are allowed opposite sex marriage."

Civil rights issues  refer to discrimination or a denial of equal protection of the laws under the Constitution because of race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin.  Not education or training. And this goes far beyond econmics.  Its about the right to visit your partner in the hospital or make medical decisons your partner.  Its about having the right to NOT testify against your partner in a court of law.  Its about  not having to fill out 2 of those annoying custon claims. There are actually 1,400 legal rights and claims afforded to married couples.

"Presently it is not legal for relatives closer than second cousins to marry."

These only speaks to individuals..  Jack can't marry Jill because they are cousins.  However Jack can marry any other women he falls in love with or he can marry just for sport.  However if Jack is gay he can never marry anyone he falls in love with.

"It is not legal for people to engage in multiple marriages at the same time."  

All Jack needs to do is absolve one marriage to enter into another.   And if they want a happy little circle they can alternate months.


"It is not legal for an adult and a child to marry."

This is just not true.  Although the "legal" age is 18 in most states and it speaks to abiltiy to consent, in most states a 14year old  (13 in NH) can marry a 80 year old as long as they have parental consent some state require a judge's order. So while there are some requirements on min. age there are no requirements on the max. age of the spouse (regardless of the age of their intended).

"I also find ridiculous the latest arguements against a constitutional amendment identifying marriage as between a man and a women.  The standard argument is that we should be careful about changing the constitution willy nilly."

The amendment is wrong because it intentionally discriminates against a whole group of tax paying citizens.

Look this isn't about economic or even those annoying  custom claims. It's about saying that someone will never be able to marry the person they love.  In a society where about 50% of marriages end in divorce, about 30% of married people admit infidelity and so may get married (money, boredom) it seems really unfortunate to tell a entire segment of our population that they will never be able to marry because of love.

Offline spursfan101

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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2004, 09:49:41 AM »
Quote
This is a bogus arguement. Throughout the history of this country we as a society have chosen to limit, restrict, outlaw, or discourage, behavior, activities, or social and business arrangements.

Exactly.  Like the Jim Crow Laws.  Separeate But Equal.  Slavery.  Prohibition.  Women's Right to Vote, etc....
Paul

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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2004, 10:26:20 AM »
Quote
Quote
This is a bogus arguement. Throughout the history of this country we as a society have chosen to limit, restrict, outlaw, or discourage, behavior, activities, or social and business arrangements.

Exactly.  Like the Jim Crow Laws.  Separeate But Equal.  Slavery.  Prohibition.  Women's Right to Vote, etc....
I think Jomal has a point, our country is not ready for this IMO.  I cant see this being considered "Normal" for some time...
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Offline spursfan101

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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2004, 10:34:44 AM »
Not ready for what?  Not ready to allow homosexuals to visit their partner in the hospital or make medical decisons their partner. Not ready to have their right to NOT testify against their partner in a court of law?  

All they are asking for is some basic legal rights, their not asking you to accept them into a spiritual marriage that is blessed by God.  Just some basic rights, and i'm cool with that.
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Offline SPURSX3

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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2004, 10:48:31 AM »
Quote
Not ready for what?  Not ready to allow homosexuals to visit their partner in the hospital or make medical decisons their partner. Not ready to have their right to NOT testify against their partner in a court of law?  

All they are asking for is some basic legal rights, their not asking you to accept them into a spiritual marriage that is blessed by God.  Just some basic rights, and i'm cool with that.
your talking about an idealogy that the MAJORITY of this country does not subscribe to.  maybe they wont infringe on anyone, but a lot of people qwill have a hard time accepting this change in general dude.  it's not hard to realize THAT is the truth.  Just because something may be politically correct doesnt mean that the country is going to accept every damn thing coming liberal, rosie o'donnell, or oprah - you know thats not the way it is and the reality is a lot of people will voice thier opinion against it regardless if it is the right thing to do or not.
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline Randy

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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2004, 02:16:26 PM »
Quote
The following quote appears on the Jefferson Memorial. It’s taken from a letter to Samuel Kerchvel in 1816:
“I am certainly not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors”

I'd be careful about quoting Jefferson unless you want to get into a great deal more of what he has to say about the government and morality.  Jefferson believed that morality was fundamental to government and society.  Go back and read his writings and he stated quite clearly that truth and morality were linked together.  

Bottom line is this, you want to change the definition of the word "marriage" simply because you believe that marriage is different than it used to be.  Do I think it has been abused?  Absolutely -- but I'm not in favor for changing the definition.  This change also goes against everything that I believe in -- and it's not because we are saying some are not created equal -- all of us are created equal but we aren't talking about what has been created -- we are talking about what some people choose.  I believe that people have the right to choose unless that choice breaks the law.  I am not in favor of changing the definition of marriage.

Quote
Not ready for what? Not ready to allow homosexuals to visit their partner in the hospital or make medical decisons their partner. Not ready to have their right to NOT testify against their partner in a court of law?

All they are asking for is some basic legal rights, their not asking you to accept them into a spiritual marriage that is blessed by God. Just some basic rights, and i'm cool with that.

I do think they are asking for our acceptance.  I don't believe that all they want is the ability to choose for themselves -- they want me to accept their lifestyle and what they need to do is recognize that they need to accept my beliefs.  I will tolerate their right to choose and they need to tolerate my right to believe that what they are doing is wrong.  And they don't need to change the definition of marriage to get what they want -- and they don't need to try and teach my children that what they are doing is okay -- anymore than the schools teach that what they are doing isn't.  IF we are actually talking about being equal -- than IF you teach that it's okay -- then you have to turn around and teach that it isn't.  Otherwise, you are choosing one belief system over the other.

Offline spursfan101

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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2004, 02:26:53 PM »
Nice post Randy.  You sound cute?  Are you single?  :D  Just kidding, you made some valid points, and in many ways, I think they want to be accepted. Gays have been persecuted and beat up for so long, Hell, I have an uncle who was beaten to death because he was gay, and he was an upstanding member of society. He had an "Aunt Jack" for years and they were very much in love. I think he deserved some rights, in many ways, you would have never known that he was gay, he was so unasuming.

On the flipside to that, I have a much younger cousin who is gay,(in his 30's let's call him my faggot cousin Danny) and he's just flaming, irresponsible sexually, and the biggest fruitcake you would ever meet. He flaunts his gayness, dresses like a freak and just disgusts me. He blames the world for his failures, and for that kind, I have no sympathy.

But for the good people like my uncle who never hurt a fly, just lived his life with his "life partner" (and made tremendous amounts of money as a pharmacist), I feel for them.  Oh, in case your wondering, he hired some down and out contractors to do some work on his house, they robbed him blind, bludgeoned him, and took his car. When they went to trial, they used the homophobic gay defense that he hit on them, and that set them off.  Totally weak, the guys went up the river.

 
Paul

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2004, 02:35:40 PM »
The difference Randy is this....they accept your right to hate them and be disgusted by their lifestyle as long as you can't attack them physically or verbally.  They just ask that you accept their right to live that lifestyle.  And in all of your fancy prose you are denying them that right.
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Offline Randy

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2004, 02:37:46 PM »
Quote
Nice post Randy.  You sound cute?  Are you single?  :D  Just kidding, you made some valid points, and in many ways, I think they want to be accepted. Gays have been persecuted and beat up for so long, Hell, I have an uncle who was beaten to death because he was gay, and he was an upstanding member of society. He had an "Aunt Jack" for years and they were very much in love. I think he deserved some rights, in many ways, you would have never known that he was gay, he was so unasuming.

On the flipside to that, I have a much younger cousin who is gay,(in his 30's let's call him my faggot cousin Danny) and he's just flaming, irresponsible sexually, and the biggest fruitcake you would ever meet. He flaunts his gayness, dresses like a freak and just disgusts me. He blames the world for his failures, and for that kind, I have no sympathy.

But for the good people like my uncle who never hurt a fly, just lived his life with his "life partner" (and made tremendous amounts of money as a pharmacist), I feel for them.  Oh, in case your wondering, he hired some down and out contractors to do some work on his house, they robbed him blind, bludgeoned him, and took his car. When they went to trial, they used the homophobic gay defense that he hit on them, and that set them off.  Totally weak, the guys went up the river.
I hope you do realize that first, I'm not cute -- I'm not sure why my wife agreed to marry me.

Second, I hope that you realize that, even though I don't believe that their choice is correct, I do believe that it SHOULD be their choice to make.  And I would have no problem convicting the people who robbed, beat and killed your uncle to prison and even the death penalty.  I don't hate people who make that choice even while I think they are wrong.  I do hate the fact that people want to change the definition of marriage and that they want to tell my children "it's okay" under the guise of toleration.  I continue to teach my children to be kind -- even though that gets increasingly difficult in my world.  I strive to teach my children that, as I believe, God gave people a choice -- they get to live as they choose -- I just don't want them telling my children that their choice is right and needs to be accepted.  I want to tell my children that their right to choose needs to be protected and accepted but not the choice itself.

You're point really brings up an issue that is a soapbox issue for me.  I think there are many people out there who look for "opportunities" to do what they want -- I've seen brutal behavior at the winning of ballgames, the wrong verdict in a trial, the celebration of mardi gras, religious fervor, etc.  I believe that the bottom root of this is what is in a person's heart -- I do believe in a person's right to defend himself but most of this is just criminals looking for an opportunity.  I've seen some horrible acts created in all these arenas and I truly believe that the perps need to be tried and punished based on what they did -- not in what cause they did it.

Offline Randy

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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2004, 02:43:23 PM »
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The difference Randy is this....they accept your right to hate them and be disgusted by their lifestyle as long as you can't attack them physically or verbally.  They just ask that you accept their right to live that lifestyle.  And in all of your fancy prose you are denying them that right.
Who said I was denying them that right?  They already live that lifestyle, don't they?  I'm not denying them the right to have sex or live with someone, am I?  

As for hating them, I feel very strongly against what they are doing -- but hate the people?  I only hate the actions and the comments of some who attack my right to believe -- I think it's interesting that you state that I can't attack them physically or verbally -- I've never attacked them in either way -- but I can tell you that I have been attacked by people who choose this lifestyle based on their comments about people who believe, based on faith, that what they are doing is wrong.

I believe there is a very big different in accepting and condoning what they are doing -- I have already accepted that it's their choice to make -- just like my faith is my choice -- but I don't have to condone it -- and I have the right not to do so.  

Offline TheloMonk

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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2004, 03:14:05 PM »
Randy this is not about you.  I don’t want your acceptance.  I don’t want to be discriminated against because I’m different, I don’t want to be persecuted because of who I love…but I don’t want your acceptance.  There are people in this world who will never accept others based on their skin color or religion. Considering, it would be quite foolish of me to be concerned with whether or not someone will accept me because of who I love. I don’t care if you condone my “lifestyle”.  I don’t care if you view my relationship as legitimate. I don’t care what you think of me.  However, I don’t want to have to worry that critical moments of my life my well being and the well being of my partner will be left to the discretion of others.  And as a tax paying, law abiding citizen, I feel that I shouldn't have to.

As for morality you are correct to state the link between morality and government.  However it is arrogant to presume the only moral statures are those that exist in Semitic religions.  According to the Buddha moral acts are those which upon generosity, love and understanding.  It’s about treating others the way you want to be treated, not harming yourself or others and always moving towards enlightenment, this is my morality.

Spursfan101, I’m also disgusted by anyone dresses like a freak, is sexually irresponsible and blames the world for their failure, regardless of their sexually.