Author Topic: Shaq - Duncan  (Read 4873 times)

Offline SPURSX3

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Shaq - Duncan
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2005, 11:05:27 AM »
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Okay i don't want to rain on the 60s 70s 80s vs today topic.

But since we are speculating.....

Randy had Shaq and Tim Duncan over last night.  He baked them a cake.  However he had his Lakers glasses on and instead of cinamin he added cyanide.
Timmy Dunker and Shaq will live, but both are semi paralyzed and will never play again.

Who leaves with the better legacy?
Who was better?

Tim Dunker with 3 in 7 and all the trimmings?
Shaq when under 400 pounds and having 3* straight?
If Shaq were semi-paralyzed, how would we know it? :bash:

Can you say, "This is like comparing apples to applejack"? :drunk:

Both have legacies that you could classify as being above average for your typical NBA superstar. Someone said that Shaq has done better because he led two different teams deep into the playoffs. I would say, so has Duncan. His Spurs squad from his first championship has changed a bit compared to his last one.

But Duncan can never be the physical presence of Shaq. Because of that, unsurprisingly, Tim actually went out and developed more creative offensive moves, put better use to his natural quickness, and learned to dominate games in his own style.

The question that should be asked is, which one of these players took better advantage of the natural abilities given to each to begin with? My personal feeling is that Shaq is naturally dominant and clearly has terrific coordination for someone his size, but his free throw shooting and the absence of any decent shot outside six feet tells me he is lazy and clearly underdeveloped those talents. And why does he disappear from collecting more rebounds so often?

Can you ever say the same thing about Tim Duncan? I would have to say that Duncan has had the harder road to success because he never was gifted with the body that O'Neal was given, so his legacy can be looked upon as requiring more work to achieve.

And I certainly would consider that in any comparison between the two.
(Reality, AKA. Homer Simpson, sits at his power plant computer reading the post by Jomal...)

"Stupid Jomal, didn't answer the question either.  he reminds me of that goodie goodie, Ned Flanders..."
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2005, 11:50:47 AM »
Can you ever say Duncan sucks at free throws and sometimes gets taken out of the game by his own will?

Uhhh YES!!! LOL.  Did you guys forget this years playoffs already????????
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Guest_Randy

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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2005, 12:29:44 PM »
You guys are TOTALLY missing Reality's point here.  

He wants EVERYONE to come here and state that TD is a much better player than Shaq has ever been and therefore, he will leave the biggest legacy!

I don't read anyone writing that TD is the most dominant player in the league (and perhaps history) -- I do read that about Shaq (hmm, Reality believes what sportswriter write about a European guy who has never played ANY NBA ball but he can't believe them when those same sportswriters write that Shaq is the most dominant player in the NBA, hmmm).  

However, that doesn't take anything away from TD -- I felt like TD found a new level in the second half of game #7.  The Pistons had been doing a good job of containing him one on one and his teammates needed a little more space -- TD exerted himself to a new level, IMO, and forced the Pistons to double.  

TD is probably the best PF to ever play the game -- and that's saying something because there have been some GREAT PF's in this league!  Both offensively and defensively the guy is just Mr. Fundamental.

However, I don't think that either legacy will be based on their personalities.  There have been a TON of players that have left a legacy even though they AREN'T the darling of the media.  Shaq makes his own news -- always has.  So does TD.  Does TD make SportsCenter less?  Probably -- but real basketball fans don't get their information from SportsCenter (sorry, zig) -- they get it from watching players night in and night out!

Shaq and TD will both leave their own legacies -- I'm not sure that I would compare them.  Both will go down in history as top in their position -- I think it's just that Shaq has bigger feet and leaves a bigger wake.

Offline JoMal

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Shaq - Duncan
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2005, 12:50:01 PM »
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Can you ever say Duncan sucks at free throws and sometimes gets taken out of the game by his own will?

Uhhh YES!!! LOL.  Did you guys forget this years playoffs already????????
My Donald Rumsfeld press conference imperssionation:

 

Did Duncan have a bad stretch of shooting free throws in the finals? Yeah.

Did Duncan get shut down at times during that series? Yeah.  

Did they give Duncan the Series MVP anyway? Yeah.

Did they figure the Spurs would not have won without Tim on the court? Yeah.

Did we invade Iraq because they have all that oil and we really, really wanted it?

How can I ask myself that question? No true patriot would ever ask that question.

This press conference is over!!!  
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Reality

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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2005, 06:14:03 PM »
I only want what I always want from everyone on the board, their honest thoughts and feelings.  Randoph, we have work to do but we are gonna get you there.  I can see the day when we can sit down and watch a Spurs Lakers game together.
That most of you picked Shaq is fine.  That Jomal did not give a specific Shaq or Tim is fine, he made valid points.  Esp the "when have we seen Shaq not semi paralyzed?" :rofl:   Woops, hes The Most Dominant Never.  I mean Even, i mean ever!  JoeVs take that in Shaqs doing absolutely nothing beyond 6 feet he could be knowing his weaknesses better then Tim Dunkar is certainly interesting and food for thought.

Timmy Dunker really cost himself in Games 3 4 5 6 in this years Finals.  Had the Spurs romped 4-1, and they didnt, no way Detroit was gonna have that happen, but if they romp 4-1 or Tim is not so shakey in those games, he might have passed Shaq.  As for The Most Dominant Nevers playoff shakes, let's not forget barely squeeking by Blazers and 38 yr old arthritic Sabonis and Vlades discombobulating effect on the Big A_____e.  For now, I'm gonna have to leave it a tie and let 2006 and 2007 Playoffs speak for themselves.

Reasonings:

Shaq outscored Duncan careerwise.  Wow, a whooping 26 to 22.
Joe V April 4, 2004 post*  "Without Popavitchs offense Duncan scores 28 a game"
*exact date and quote may vary slightly
Better footwork then Duncan?  They both need work.  Duncans 12-18 foot bankers completely outdo anything Shaq has ever done away from the hoop.  Duncan will also can the occasional 15-20 foot straight jumper.  Shaq has no such coordination.

Shaq was on US Gold medal Oly team
Counterpoint:  Put down crack pipe.  '96 had all in their prime or at the least very healthy: Charles Barkley, Anfernee Hardaway, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson and John Stockton.  No comparison in any way shape or form to 2004.
Not to mention the FIBA refs vs Timmy Dunker.


X3s media credential list, ie Shaqs all defensive team and Finals MVP.  Have you compared this list with Tim Duncans?  It's at best a wash.  All D team?  5 straight and counting.  Ie All NBA 1st team try 6-6 for Duncans 1st 6 years.  Bird only other one in history to do so.  Finals MVP?  Try 3-3 in 1st 3 tries for Duncan.  Only other player in history to do that is MJ.  Besides its a media list.  -shudder-

Good points on how Tims being with the same team does not detract, esp since 99 and 05 titles were completely different rosters.  Shaq impressive in taking 2 teams to finals and a 3rd Miami within a few calories of a Finals?  Yes.  It's a wash.

to be continued but basically i say 2005-6 '6-'7 will be more decisive.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 04:15:37 AM by Reality »

Guest_Randy

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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2005, 10:18:56 AM »
Reality,

See, this is where you show your bias.  Teams don't double TD when he is shooting 18 foot bank shots -- they do when he is in the lane.  And what is TD's FG% shooting 18 foot bank shots vs. 4 or 5 feet from the basket.  THAT'S when teams have to double TD -- not when he is shooting 18 footers.  

Shaq doesn't leave the post -- and no coach would EVER want him too (okay, the opponents coach would) -- you want Shaq down deep demanding a double team.  That not only allows him the opportunity to shoot 4 or 5 footers but gives wide open looks to a player BECAUSE Shaq is demanding a double team.

At times, I think that TD gets too happy with his outside shooting -- don't get me wrong, TD has a great 18' shot but the opponent isn't going to double on that shot -- TD needs to become much more assertive at times in the post so that the Spurs opponents HAVE to double him in the post.  It shakes the Spurs offense loose when he does that.  SA has players that move very well without the ball -- Manu, Bowen, Horry, Mohammed, and Barry.  TD isn't nearly the passer that Shaq is but all that movement without the ball means easy scores.  Easy scores have a MUCH higher FG% than 18' bank shots -- even if they are TD's.

I believe that Shaq is also a better weakside defender (okay, he WAS a better weakside defender than TD).  The year the Lakers went 15-1 in the playoffs -- Shaq was EVERYWHERE -- I have seen few players in the league that were that dominant in team defense -- and it was the reason that the Lakers did so well in the playoffs, IMO.  Both Shaq and TD are great rebounders -- I think that Shaq actually has better hands and is a better dribbler but TD has outside shooting (except at the free throw line -- go figure!).

What I think is funny is that you come here ASKING other posters their opinion and then try and sarcastically use those opinions in another post to berate their opinions!   :rofl:

TD is a great player -- perhaps the greatest PF to ever play the game (greatest at any position is very subjective and based on opinion).  But too many people call Shaq the most dominant player ever for you to not at least put him into that kind of consideration.  

Offline Joe Vancil

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Shaq - Duncan
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2005, 10:28:57 AM »
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Timmy Dunker really cost himself in Games 3 4 5 6 in this years Finals. Had the Spurs romped 4-1, and they didnt, no way Detroit was gonna have that happen, but if they romp 4-1 or Tim is not so shakey in those games, he might have passed Shaq.

Wow.  I couldn't disagree more.  Mostly because I *DON'T* fault Duncan for 3-4-5, and even if the Spurs had SWEPT Detroit, I wouldn't put Duncan's legacy above that of Shaq's.  All of this "Duncan isn't clutch/Duncan is a choker" crap is exactly that...crap.  The guy is an absolute gamer, and gives you what he's got every game...which is NOT a quality I'd assign to O'Neal.  That doesn't change the fact that Shaq has made a bigger impact on the game as a whole than Duncan has - which is where my "greater legacy" choice is based.

By the numbers, Shaq's 10,379 points ahead of Duncan, meaning, at his current rate, it's going to take Duncan 6 seasons to catch Shaq...assuming Shaq's career is over at this moment.  Duncan is 3402 rebounds behind Shaq - 4 seasons back of Shaq.  Duncan is 785 BLOCKS behind Shaq - that's 4 seasons back of Shaq - whose career average is EQUAL to Duncan's.  Heck, it's going to take Duncan 3 more seasons to catch Shaq in *STEALS*!  And that's playing in 82 games a year, at Duncan's career average - which he's been below 3 of his last 4 years.

All of that, and you say a couple of playoff games against Detroit would tilt the scales in Duncan's favor?

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Shaq outscored Duncan careerwise. Wow, a whooping 26 to 22.
Joe V April 4, 2004 post* "Without Popavitchs offense Duncan scores 28 a game"
*exact date and quote may vary slightly
Better footwork then Duncan? They both need work. Duncans 12-18 foot bankers completely outdo anything Shaq has ever done away from the hoop. Duncan will also can the occasional 15-20 foot straight jumper. Shaq has no such coordination.

Those 26 to 22 numbers are somewhat misleading.  Duncan's high season was 25.5.  Not only is Shaq's average above that, but so are 10 of the 13 season's he's played.  And compared to Duncan's 22.5 average, Shaq's only had ONE season where he wasn't above that:  2003-04 - his last year in Los Angeles.  Shaq's all-time low - 21.5 in 2003-04, beats two of Duncan's seasons - ONE OF THEM BEING THIS CURRENT SEASON!  *THIS* *YEAR* was Duncan's low.  It was also his career low in games.  When you get right down to it, Shaq's supposed to be breaking down...yet he played more games and more minutes per game than Duncan did *THIS* *YEAR*.  Played more games this year than Duncan did LAST YEAR.

As for Duncan having this great 15-20 foot jumper, if you're so enamored by that, why aren't we comparing Chris Webber or Dirk Nowitzki to Shaq?  That is a WEAKNESS to Duncan's game.  Sure, it's nice to have.  But I don't want my big man pulling a Karl Malone and trying to prove he can shoot from outside;  I want him banging away in the paint - the way Shaq does.

And there is ABSOLUTELY *NOTHING* wrong with Shaq's post footwork.  In fact, it's the best I've ever seen.  Duncan isn't even in the same ballpark in this regard.  Yet you try to dismiss both of them in this regard, and then point out Duncan is willing to shoot a shot I wouldn't want him shooting?  What are you trying to do...get me to say, "Oh, Karl Malone was right going to the outside against Chicago"?  Ain't gonna happen.  If I saw Shaq shooting 15 footers, I'd be blasting him the same way...whether or not they're going it.

And speaking of shots going in, if Duncan's outside game is so great, why is he only at .507 from the field for his career?  His high was .549 - his rookie year, when he WASN'T the focal point of the offense.  Since then, his best has been a piddly .513.  Comparing that with O'Neal, his career worst was .557.  His career average is .579.  He just came of a year where he finished at .601.

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Counterpoint: Put down crack pipe. '96 had all in their prime or at the least very healthy: Charles Barkley, Anfernee Hardaway, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson and John Stockton. No comparison in any way shape or form to 2004.
Not to mention the FIBA refs vs Timmy Dunker.

Counter to the counterpoint - Duncan missed the 2000 Olympic games with INJURY.  Duncan missed the 1998 WCB because of the NBA lockout.  Shaq's never had these troubles.

And a bigger counter to the counterpoint - shall we discuss the 1994 WCB team that Shaq anchored?  Something tells me that outside of Marbury, I think you'll take the 2004 Olympic team.  The 1994 was nothing more than a giant marketing gimmick, and they outperformed the 2004 Olympic Team.  In fact, Duncan's Olympic Team lost more games at the Olympics BY ITSELF than *ALL* the other Olympic Teams in U.S. History - college or pro - COMBINED.  That's far from a trivial distinction.

There's no crack pipe involved.  Shaq won.  Duncan lost.  And Shaq had to face the same kind of FIBA refs that Duncan did;  he did it twice, and WON BOTH TIMES.  The difference is that Shaq, with his footwork and strength, ADJUSTED.  Duncan DIDN'T.  The FIBA refs weren't picking on Duncan...Duncan is simply used to the star-level calls/no-calls of the pathetic officiating of the NBA.  Face it - Duncan embarrassed himself on the Olympic team - both on the court with his play, and off the court with his whining about the refs.  He showed us he's capable of competing with Shaq in the whining game....he just typically chooses not to.

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to be continued but basically i say 2005-6 '6-'7 will be more decisive.

For that year to be "decisive," Duncan would have to lead a 16-1 Spurs team through the playoffs to the Championship, named the MVP, with Duncan averaging, for the season, 126.5 points, 41.5 rebounds, and 9.57 blocks per game.

Actually, if Duncan did just 1/4th of that - 31.6, 10.4, 2.39 - along with winning the Championship, I might BEGIN to mention Duncan's legacy and comparing it to Shaq's.  But that's the kind of season it's going to take....or 5 or 6 more at Duncan's CURRENT level, with his teams having playoff success.  The difference is THAT BIG, Reality.

 
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Offline spursfan101

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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2005, 11:26:29 AM »
Without a doubt, Shaq. He's larger than life.
Paul

Offline Reality

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« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2005, 08:37:32 PM »
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When Shaq leaves he will get the title "the most dominating player in the last 4 decades"  (whether earned or not, depends who you ask...)
Are you agreeing with his "MDE of 4 decades" or just stating that he will be given this title, earned or not?

I will make a retraction.

If you're still talking to me.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 08:49:33 PM by Reality »

Guest_Randy

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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2005, 09:50:40 PM »
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When Shaq leaves he will get the title "the most dominating player in the last 4 decades"  (whether earned or not, depends who you ask...)
Are you agreeing with his "MDE of 4 decades" or just stating that he will be given this title, earned or not?

I will make a retraction.

If you're still talking to me.
"Retraction" -- well, as close as you will ever get to saying that you are wrong, huh?

Offline Reality

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« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2005, 11:19:49 PM »
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"Retraction" -- well, as close as you will ever get to saying that you are wrong, huh?
Randoph,

I now believe westkoast may well have been referring to what others will entitle Shaq.  His own opinion is "most dominant of recent history" with recent meaning 1998- on.  

If so i was wrong.

Here is 27 other times i was wrong.
http://www.phillyarena.net/forums/index.ph...wtopic=2174&hl=
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 01:13:17 AM by Reality »

Guest_Randy

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« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2005, 11:18:49 AM »
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"Retraction" -- well, as close as you will ever get to saying that you are wrong, huh?
Randoph,

I now believe westkoast may well have been referring to what others will entitle Shaq.  His own opinion is "most dominant of recent history" with recent meaning 1998- on.  

If so i was wrong.

Here is 27 other times i was wrong.
http://www.phillyarena.net/forums/index.ph...wtopic=2174&hl=
So glad that you could have foreseen the injury to Wade -- because it was a foregone conclusion that the Pistons couldn't beat Miami with him in the line-up!

Offline Reality

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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2005, 12:59:22 PM »
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So glad that you could have foreseen the injury to Wade -- because it was a foregone conclusion that the Pistons couldn't beat Miami with him in the line-up!
As foregone as the Lakers would beat the Pistons in '04  B)
And the Spurs in '03. :rofl:  

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« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2005, 02:31:04 PM »
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So glad that you could have foreseen the injury to Wade -- because it was a foregone conclusion that the Pistons couldn't beat Miami with him in the line-up!
As foregone as the Lakers would beat the Pistons in '04  B)
And the Spurs in '03. :rofl:
Or as foregone a conclusion as the Lakers beating the Spurs in '04 or 02 or 01.  We can play this game for a long time, can't we!!!

Offline Reality

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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2005, 03:16:49 PM »
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As foregone as the Lakers would beat the Pistons in '04  B)
And the Spurs in '03. :rofl:
Or as foregone a conclusion as the Lakers beating the Spurs in '04 or 02 or 01.  We can play this game for a long time, can't we!!! [/quote]
 Sure, lets Twist.