Another NBA player

[Guest_Randy]

Randolph, Malone coming to L.A. just soley he could "start as a PF". 
He had visions of sugar plumbs, more cheapshots, fairys and and an NBA title 100%.

Malone was considering several teams and one of them was SA -- but he wanted to start (and play starter minutes) for whatever team he went to and that wasn't going to happen in SA, was it?  That was a VERY high factor in him going to SA rather than a couple of other teams he was considering.  

Why do you fail to realize that -- it's not enough for most players to get a ring -- they actually want to earn it by starting and playing major minutes (therefore stating that they did earn it).  SAR didn't just want to go somewhere (like SA) and ride the pine -- he wanted to go somewhere where he thought he had a serious shot at going deep into the playoffs.  If NJ had a center that was even serviceable and VC and Jefferson could play together effectively on the same floor and Kidd was healthy -- I'd say NJ had a shot -- but that's WAYYY too many "if's."  

Malone had a very short list -- if I remember right it was Lakers, Kings, Mavs and Spurs.  He wasn't getting the guarantees he wanted (starting and playing starter minutes) with anyone other than the Lakers, was he?  Of course, he thought he could earn a title in LA -- but he also thought he was the player to tip the scales in the Lakers favor.  Who knows, he might have been if he had been healthy!

PS - let's go back and read the post rather than translating it into whatever you want it to be:  

Pop wouldn't guarantee Malone a starting position -- why would he guarantee SAR?

How does that translate into:

Randolph, Malone coming to L.A. just soley he could "start as a PF". 
He had visions of sugar plumbs, more cheapshots, fairys and and an NBA title 100%.

Can you refute what I said?  Pop wouldn't guarantee Malone a starting position and that WAS something Malone was insisting on wherever he went.  The fact is that he wasn't going to get that with the Spurs or the Kings and it was doubtful that he would start for the Mavs (who also wouldn't make any guarantees).  The Lakers had ZERO problem making that guarantee because we didn't have anyone at PF.  

You might actually read the post and actually state what I said rather than making up what you wanted me to say!

[Reality]

Now we have yet another one, Keyon Dooling leaving The Heat to get minutes for the Magic.  Don't say he was insignifigant for the Heats 2005 Playoff run.  He made 20 of 26 shots during one four-game stretch this past postseason, helping the Heat win each of those games.

Similiar move?  Speedy Claxton leaving SA so he could go and start for Golden State.  Yeah that sure worked out well.

[Derek Bodner]

So players are now supposed to NOT want to start?

[Guest_Randy]

Now we have yet another one, Keyon Dooling leaving The Heat to get minutes for the Magic.  Don't say he was insignifigant for the Heats 2005 Playoff run.  He made 20 of 26 shots during one four-game stretch this past postseason, helping the Heat win each of those games.

Similiar move?  Speedy Claxton leaving SA so he could go and start for Golden State.  Yeah that sure worked out well.

Okay, Reality, want to make sure I get this right -- you think that stars (or anyone?) in the league should:  1) play for little money in order to join a team that has a legit shot at the title; and 2) be willing to sit the bench just in order to get a ring?

I just can't agree with that -- for many reasons:
1)  That would make a couple of teams in the NBA GREAT -- and the rest pathetic -- I really don't want to watch 82 games when more than half of them are pathetic blow-outs.  That would KILL the NBA!
2)  Why would fans of the Hornets, etc. even want to go to a game if they weren't going to be entertaining?  People want to see star power -- and it's just not on the same team.
3)  Why should players not have the right to choose money and starting over rings -- isn't it their choice?  Most of us have had that option -- and most of us (if the situation was right) would probably choose more money!  There have been times that I haven't gone for more money or even more prestige but it had a lot more to do with the situation (and how it affected my family) then it did the fact that it was more money.  

I just can't agree -- I don't think less of players because they don't all join the SA Spurs -- or even the LA Lakers.  Hey, I look forward to what SAR can do with the Nets this season -- hopefully, it will mean a lot better, more competitive basketball -- esp. in the EC.

[Reality]

So players are now supposed to NOT want to start?

Given the choice between playing very meaningful minutes that make a difference on a title team vs starting for a .500 team, yes.  

 

[Guest_Randy]

Reality,

I totally disagree -- this is your perspective and an NBA player wants to PLAY, not sit and watch others play.  I don't think you can insult him because he would rather start for a team than "play meaningful minutes."  However, I totally disagree that SAR would get meaningful minutes in SA or Detroit.  There's simply not enough of them to go around.

But the Nets did much better than .500 after the VC trade -- and they have a great line-up in the backcourt (Kidd, VC and Jefferson).  Jefferson was hurt and so was Kidd for most of the season.  SAR is factoring in those items, you can be sure of that -- and he is also noting that their glaring weakness is one he can fill.  He thinks he can make the difference and take the Nets deep into the playoffs.  I don't necessarily agree with him -- but if they can do what I mentioned earlier -- have a healthy Kidd, find a way for VC to play SG and for VC and Jefferson to coexist on the floor -- I think they do have a strong shot at the playoffs although I don't think they can beat Indy, Miami or Detroit.

Still don't agree with you -- I would HATE for all NBA players to adopt your philosophy -- it would make for some horribly lousy teams in the NBA and make for a horrible NBA product night in and night out of the regular season.

[Derek Bodner]

You're asking players to be completely selfless.

Let me ask you, Reality.  When you go into work, is it all about the company?  Do you turn down payraises because it would hurt the company?  Do you turn down job offers from other employers offering you to be a CIO to stick with your cubicle data entry job because you're thinking about the company?  I mean, you could be the best data entrist in the land, give your company a real competitive advantage.  If other qualified CIO's would just take your stance, your company would be stocked with talent.  Sure, they may make less.  And they may be performing mind numbing work far under what they're capable of doing, but, it's all about the company!

Just like every other profession/hobby/activity, a player has goals.  And they're not 100% about the company.

[Reality]

You're asking players to be completely selfless.

Let me ask you, Reality.  When you go into work, is it all about the company?  Do you turn down payraises because it would hurt the company?  Do you turn down job offers from other employers offering you to be a CIO to stick with your cubicle data entry job because you're thinking about the company?  I mean, you could be the best data entrist in the land, give your company a real competitive advantage.  If other qualified CIO's would just take your stance, your company would be stocked with talent.  Sure, they may make less.  And they may be performing mind numbing work far under what they're capable of doing, but, it's all about the company!

Just like every other profession/hobby/activity, a player has goals.  And they're not 100% about the company.

I am the company.  :rolleyes:

Don't understand the illustration.  When i was a cube rat, and i hated it, how could another company be related to winning a title?  For one thing, the NBA players I'm talking about have made so much money that I dont want to hear their b.s. about feeding their family.  5 mil 10 mil is there really that big a difference in lifestyle?  Now if some NBA players are using their money to help others, they may really want and "need" to go to a team that will pay them a lot more cash.  But thats not what I'm talking about.  A cube rat of 500 employees making a huge difference?  Now if you are talking about a company with 8 employees and a cube rat could be much much happier working for the small company he loves and they love him, i would say the same thing.  Stay at your small loving firm instead of going to Corporate City for 2 more bucks per hour.  Absolutely, stay where loved and where you can get a "title".  

 
Speedy Claxton for example.  I stand by my stance in summer '03.  I dont think he gained squat by bailing to GState.  So he started on a sub 500 non playoff team.  Vs playing vital playoff minutes on a potential SAS repeat team.  
Jerry Schichting did just the opposite.  Left a starting role on the Pacers to become backup pg on the mighty '86 Celts.  Ask Schichting what his best memories are.
Ask Speedy now what his best memorie is.

Randolph SAR and for that matter Malone the year before is going to "ride the pine" on SA?  I don't buy that at all.  I will say NJ is not bad at all.  2nd half finish last year showed lots of promise.  Still you yourself say all the "ifs" will not happen.

Malone was looking for a title 1st and foremost.  That is why SA and LA were his only 03-04 choices.  During the '04 season when he drama queened his decision notice it was ONLY the Spurs who he was considering?  

Brent Barry.  Could get more minutes by going to a scrub NBA team.  Why should he?  Stay on SAS on continue being a role player.  I actually think Barry can get more minutes as IMO he has tons more potential on O.

Randolph and all who would NOT like the NBA if players would pursue a title instead of self.  HA!

KG slidin over to the Spurs.  
Ray Allen, A Stoudamire to the Heat.  (Randy since you cant grasp this, imagine these two becoming Glitter Marketers.  Pick a point guard since RA is no where near Kobadiah in your mind)
A.I. taking minimal for the Pistons.  (Okay 'bods BenWa, Prince and 'Sheed to Philly for salaries that fit.)
Indy picking up Lebron and Z.
Whooo baby bring on those playoffs.
Oh there would be some boring regular season games.  And some kick arse Playoffs and finals.

I want all you whippersnappers that can to check out the Classic channel when they play some of the 80s Celts-76ers playoff battles.  NBAs two best teams going at it.  Superb lineup on both sides.  I'll even throw in one of those Laker teams.

Billy W and Bob Parish going at it in practice was said to be unreal.  Those of you who think Billy W did not do the right thing by coming to the Celts in '86 :nonono:

He did the right thing 100%.
Malone coming over to the Flakers.  Fine with me.  They were great for 25 games.  Only thing i want to see is when that happens, another player stepping to the plate and joining the Spurs for minimal.
We need to see much more, not much less of this.

 

[Skandery]

I could maybe see your point Reality in the case of an aging veteran, (e.g. Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Payton, Drexler) after a storied career adding the missing piece of their legacy and joining a team and accepting a reduced role for a shot at the ring.  Four of the five I mentioned did just that.  But a person like Chris Bosh to sign with SA to play 18 meaningful minutes behind T. Duncan this early in a budding career would be absolutely horrible for the NBA.  

[Guest_Randy]

I want all you whippersnappers that can to check out the Classic channel when they play some of the 80s Celts-76ers playoff battles. NBAs two best teams going at it. Superb lineup on both sides. I'll even throw in one of those Laker teams.

Reality, you can't compare teams in that era with teams in this era -- there were some GREAT teams but how many less teams were there in the league then?

KG slidin over to the Spurs.
Ray Allen, A Stoudamire to the Heat. (Randy since you cant grasp this, imagine these two becoming Glitter Marketers. Pick a point guard since RA is no where near Kobadiah in your mind)
A.I. taking minimal for the Pistons. (Okay 'bods BenWa, Prince and 'Sheed to Philly for salaries that fit.)
Indy picking up Lebron and Z.
Whooo baby bring on those playoffs.
Oh there would be some boring regular season games. And some kick arse Playoffs and finals.

And you just brought the product of the NBA to the same status of MLB.  Based on your proposal, you have just CONDEMNED all the teams that are on the bottom to stay on the bottom!!!  In MLB, it's money that does it -- the Kansas City Royals can't afford to spend the money that the Yankees do and so they are basically a farm club for the better teams in the league (i.e. the teams that can afford to spend the money required to be at the top year after year).  Except, you are doing it a different way -- the best players in the league (KG, AI, Ray Allen, Amare, etc.) are to bolt for the best teams in the league today and leave their present teams to sink to the bottom of the NBA well.  So you have incredible playoff games and you ensure that a few teams will be great for eternity (because the best players in the league give up money and playing time to continue making those teams great for the playoffs) but you condemn the rest of the league to mediocrity!  This is a HORRIBLE proposal -- and I can't believe any true fan of the NBA would even make this proposal!  You want to basically say the same thing that people criticized the Lakers for -- the regular season doesn't mean anything -- we are only concerned with the playoffs.  Do you NOT see what that is going to do to the product of the NBA?  Fans will lose their desire to watch games during the regular season and just show up to watch the playoffs!  

I don't like your proposal and I want to see the talent of the NBA spread out throughout the league -- there are a few teams that in their present position (in the NBA basement so to speak) because of their organization (see the Clippers and Golden State) but I love the fact that the NBA is a sport that CHANGES who is dominant in the league -- even if it's NOT my team!!!  I like the fact that the Nets might make a run this year -- I like the fact that Cleveland and Chicago are trying to build themselves out of the bottom of the league.  I like the fact that while the Spurs, Heat, Detroit, Indy and Phoenix are on top now -- that there are teams that are nipping at their heels and looking for weaknesses to attack and exploit.  I like the fact that when a Shaq or TD retires, if their team can't replace them that another team moves up to take their place.  It's what excites me about the NBA!  I LOVE the fact that there are going to be great series and while the playoffs might be more exciting if we take the best players and create two teams for them to play against each other, I love the fact that it's not money or a specific town or team that is guaranteed to be in it year after year after year!  And I say that after MY favorite team missed the playoffs for the first time in many many years!  I love watching the Lakers win -- but I would rather see the NBA be determined by great GM's, coaches and players putting together teams than a few teams be predetermined to be the best in the league!  I HATE that proposal and it's just one of the many reasons that I hate baseball!

[Reality]

Sarunas Jasikevicius, widely considered the top point guard in Europe, signed a three-year, 12 million deal with the Pacers, his agent Doug Neustadt told ESPN.com.

Jasikevicius also had offers from the Jazz and Cavs, but decided to take less money and fewer minutes to have a shot at an NBA title.

"It really came down to who he could win a championship with next year," Neustadt told ESPN.com. "He saw a chance to contribute and win and couldn't pass it up." :rofl:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2115697

[Guest_Randy]

Reality,

Do you not see the difference?  I have ZERO problem with Jasikevicius' decision -- in fact, I applaud it!  However, I don't berate Ray Allen for deciding to stay in Seattle and giving Seattle fans someone exciting to watch night in and night out.  THAT'S the difference!  

Your philosophy will create exciting ball in a few cities and condemn the rest of NBA teams and fans to dismal basketball -- I just can't understand why you would want that!

[Reality]

So where is the line drawn?  Ray Allen should not go for a title.  Euro rookie should.  SAR should not.  Karl Malone and GP should.

How about Speedy Claxton?  He should have stayed put and been the backup pt grd (or became starter?) on the Spurs 2-3.  You think he should not.

Historical precedent for another pt guard?  Jerry Sichting leaving Pacers starters minutes to play meaningful minutes on the greatest team of all time.  You think Sichting should have stayed on Pacers.

I get it that in my scenario 1/2 the NBA teams would be awesome and very good, half would pretty much suck with some of them being abysmal.   Oh like they are now. :rofl:  

So maybe "everybody" should not change teams.  However i think my "line" is much broader then the boards line.

Bottom line I continue to believe many, and certainly many more then currently do should pursue playing meaningful minutes on a title team.   That may be 40, 30, 20 or 10 min per playoff game.  Conversly, losers who are hogging up cap space and costing their fellow players a shot at the title should get out.  Chris Webber etc.

[Guest_Randy]

So where is the line drawn? Ray Allen should not go for a title. Euro rookie should. SAR should not. Karl Malone and GP should.

I think we should let it be THEIR decisions -- I don't think they are less of a player because every player doesn't join a team that has a legit shot at the championship.  I can think of a LOT of great players that never won a championship -- and just because they didn't win one doesn't make them less of a player and it doesn't make less of their accomplishments.  

I get it that in my scenario 1/2 the NBA teams would be awesome and very good, half would pretty much suck with some of them being abysmal. Oh like they are now. 

Nope, you are going to make ALL of those teams go from being lottery picks to being incredibly abysmal:

Okay, let's try these scenarios:
  Cavs minus LeBron
  Lakers minus Kobe
  SacTown minus Peja and Miller
  Seattle minus Ray Allen
  Phoenix minus Stoudamire and Nash
  Mavs minus Dirk
  Utah minus AK57
 
Do you begin to see the picture?  What will the Cavs be like without LeBron?  What would the Lakers be like without Kobe?  What would Seattle be like with Ray?

With these players, these teams can be fun to watch even IF they lose!  But without them, they are going to get blown out every night -- that's not fun for players or for fans.  So congrats, you just KILLED an NBA team, a NBA city and it's fan base.  Why?  Just so the best teams can get better?  

I remember watching the original dream team play -- wow, they were phenomenal!  Magic, Jordan, Bird, Malone and Robinson -- man, that was SOME kind of basketball to watch -- the offense, defense, passing, shooting -- it was incredible!  It was great to watch them but they weren't great basketball games -- they blew away their competition by an average of 40 points per game (or something like that).  I enjoyed watching those guys play together -- but I didn't enjoy watching other teams getting blown out.  

I DON'T want to see the NBA become MLB -- as long as players choose their own destiny, MOST will not assume a lesser role for a championship -- which keeps balance in the NBA.  It allows teams to have a CHANCE one day at the title based on their management, development of players and coaching.  What you are stating is declaring that some teams will NEVER have a chance.  And I just think that is WRONG!

[Reality]

If they stay on a team just to be a stat hound/salary grabber it does lessen their accomplishments IMO.

Ray Allen wants to stay in Seattle.  Fine.  But at least make a run at the title.  He doesn't need 15 mil* a year.  I'm sure he could feed his extended family on 10, thereby freeing up some cap space to give the Sonics a chance at some other players.

*Maybe he is donating heavily to a charity.  If so, kudos.

Dream Team is a silly comparison.  The world offered no competition at that time.
In my league you only mention the teams that would suck.  How about the upper half?  What a kick arse playoffs that would be.

Okay so i stated maybe everyone should not jump teams.  But a whole lot more could and should.  And dont tell me players arent "ruining" teams now.  Zo Mouring sucking down 20 mil a year from the Nets to sit on his arse.  Then going to Miami for mimimal.  Grant Hill for 3 years.  Chriss Webber coming up?

Lakers would be better without Kobe.  Jomal is dead on.  The correct sign n trade for Kobe would have had the Lakers in much better shape then now.  Wanna argue?  Don't.  Cause Kobe is sub .500 lifetime without Shaq.