Author Topic: Foreign 1st Rd picks  (Read 5634 times)

Offline Skandery

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Foreign 1st Rd picks
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2005, 12:51:19 PM »
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Some of these guys are set in the euro style of basketball and need to unlearn that in a sense.

I can't disagree more Westkoast.  I think the free-flowing, precision passing, cutting, "euro" style game is of great benefit to many European players.  Players such as Nowitzki, Turkoglu, and Kirilenko are better passers and dribblers for men their sizes.  They also are terrific outside shooters (35-40% from 3pt) once again for their respective positions.  I don't think they need to "unlearn" anything, but they can stand to learn new (American style) things to add to their games.  Defense is a gap I see in many European players games.  While most of them have a basic understanding of zone team defense, their man to man coverage, defensive stance, and ball-hawking intensity is often times severely lacking.  A player like Prince, Bowen, and Christie are taught these defensive pointers.  

I think American style puts so much emphasis on isolations, cross-overs and dunks, that useful things such as "the perimeter shot" are thrown by the wayside.  Why are power forwards like Radmonavic or Nowitzki better outside shooters than guards such as Dwayne Wade, LeBron James and Rip Hamilton.  Why should Yao Ming be a much better free throw shooter than Ben Wallace or Shaq.  

The so-called "Euro" style has many assets and advantages a player can utilize and I think they proved that to us in the last Olympics.          
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Foreign 1st Rd picks
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 01:49:01 PM »
Sorry for the delay in responding, gentlemen - dental appointment this morning.

I'm going to do this a bit differently - rather than basing things on raw numbers, I'm going to give you what I consider a "general feel" for how players have done.  Accurate?  Not in the slightest.  But it's what I would call a "flavor of expectation."

Let's start with the college seniors.  I feel that when they come in, they are expected to be developed, and produce immediately.  Their ability to "hit the ground running" is almost always the key selling point with these guys.  When they DO hit the ground running, they do well, but if they struggle, they're more apt to be replaced quickly.

College underclassmen are expected to get up to speed quickly, although a team will give them a bit more opportunity - especially if you're talking a freshman or sophomore.

High schoolers are regarded as "projects" - barring the unusual cases like Stoudemire or James.  Teams want to see progress along the way, along with physical development.  They'll wait a little longer.

International players are regarded as "gambles" - you grab someone reasonably big, and hope they turn into what you think they'll be.  Some of the "gambles" are also "projects" - e.g. Darko Milicic - and they'll get a bit of the time that high schoolers get.  International players aren't expected to produce as quickly as college kids are, but they're expected to produce a lot faster than the high-school kids.  They're also expected to produce beyond the level of the college kids.  The reason?  They're a gamble - a cheap, easy-to-buy-out-and-get-rid-of gamble.  High school kids and college kids aren't so easy to get rid of - what are you going to tell them, "You're not working out here, but you can make good money over in Europe?"  It's not like you're sending someone home.

The question is the level of success.

When you look at the three players who are the most critical players in the league, you're looking at Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kevin Garnett.  That's a college senior, a college junior, and a high schooler.  Add in MVPs and First Team All-NBA players, and you're still talking U.S.  or U.S. college players - Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady.

When you look at the league, position by position, and find the top three or so players at a position - what do you find?

Center - O'Neal, Stoudemire and - who?  Wallace?  Yao?  Ilgauskus?  Miller?  Magliore?
PF - Duncan, Garnett, O'Neal, Nowitzki
SF - Marion, Stojakovic, Kirilenko
SG - Bryant, Iverson, Wade, McGrady
PG - Kidd, Nash, Davis

Look at the international players:  players at center - the most shallow position in the league.  Mobile forwards - big forwards who can play small forward.  BUT NO GUARDS.  Why?  Skander said it best:  "I think American style puts so much emphasis on isolations, cross-overs and dunks, that useful things such as 'the perimeter shot' are thrown by the wayside."  Foreign guards are taught to play a more team-oriented game, and that's not the NBA's game.  It's tougher for an international guard to make the transition.

Let me throw out a stat line for you:

16.0 minutes per game, 72 games and 31 starts, .501 FG% .656 FT%, 3.8 RPG,  .3 APG, .74 BPG, 6.7 PPG.  I'll tell you that this is a rookie center.

If that's a rookie center that's a high schooler, you'll say, "Wow.  There's some potential there."

If that's an underclassman, you'll say, "He might get to be something with a little work in the weight room and some seasoning."

If that's a college senior, you'll say, "At best, this guy will just be a journeyman.  Nothing special here."

And if it's a foreigner, you say, "If he's young, we'll give him a little time.  Otherwise, let's just get someone else."

Compare that with the following statline for a rookie center:

82 Games, 81 Starts, 29.0 minutes, .518 FG%, .762 FT%, 8.8 RPG, .9 APG, 1.65 BPG, 13.9 PPG.

If I told you that was a high school center, you'd call me a liar.  If it were, the guy would be the best thing since sliced bread.

If I said it were an underclassman, you'd be thrilled!  This guy is only going to get better.

If I said it were a college senior, you'd say, "Well, we've got ourselves a solid center - not quite an All-Star, but close."

If I said it were a foreigner, you'd say, "Our gamble paid off.  He'll be fine."

Anyone recognize the stat lines?  Think you know who they are?

I believe that the level of achievement is set lowest for high schoolers.  Any progress, and we still think they're "going to be really good."  Underclassmen also get a bit of time to "improve."  But seniors hit the ground running, or they're gone.  And the foreign player is the wildcard.

In short - if I'm going to pick who I think will be best, I'll do it BY POSITION.

At center - I'd want a college senior or a proven foreigner.
At power forward - I'll gamble on a big high school kid.
At small forward - a good place to gamble on a foreigner who has played.
At 2 guard - young underclassman, or high school kid.
At point guard - an older underclassman, or a college senior.

It all has to do with the SKILL SET I EXPECT.  At the center, I want BIG.  I want VERY BIG.  And I want their skill set to be reasonably ready.

At the 4, I want the ability to mold them into what I need.

At the 3, I'm looking entirely on variety of skills.

At the 2, I'm looking at ATHLETICISM.  We'll teach them how to shoot and how to play.

And at the point, I want ABSOLUTELY NO SURPRISES - solid, steady, stable.

I believe that evaluating how good a player will be is as much of a function of evaluating where he plays versus evaluating where you got him from.

That's not a direct answer to the question posed, but it's my overall impression.
 
Joe

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Offline ziggy

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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 02:27:13 PM »
The first stat line is Eddie Curry and the second is Zydrunas Illguskis.

With regards to college senior centers.  Beyond Tim Duncan what other senior centers of the past 12 drafts have really been effective?

Jamaal Magloire
Big Country Reeves
Raef LaFrentz
Theo Ratliff
Kurt Thomas

others that played reasonable minutes
Brendon Haywood
Greg Ostertag
Kelvin Cato

So you get 1 effective senior center every other year.  I would have to do a little more reserch, but I would have to say that is similar to juniors and sophomores.
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2005, 02:59:48 PM »
Quote
Quote
Some of these guys are set in the euro style of basketball and need to unlearn that in a sense.

I can't disagree more Westkoast.  I think the free-flowing, precision passing, cutting, "euro" style game is of great benefit to many European players.  Players such as Nowitzki, Turkoglu, and Kirilenko are better passers and dribblers for men their sizes.  They also are terrific outside shooters (35-40% from 3pt) once again for their respective positions.  I don't think they need to "unlearn" anything, but they can stand to learn new (American style) things to add to their games.  Defense is a gap I see in many European players games.  While most of them have a basic understanding of zone team defense, their man to man coverage, defensive stance, and ball-hawking intensity is often times severely lacking.  A player like Prince, Bowen, and Christie are taught these defensive pointers.  

I think American style puts so much emphasis on isolations, cross-overs and dunks, that useful things such as "the perimeter shot" are thrown by the wayside.  Why are power forwards like Radmonavic or Nowitzki better outside shooters than guards such as Dwayne Wade, LeBron James and Rip Hamilton.  Why should Yao Ming be a much better free throw shooter than Ben Wallace or Shaq.  

The so-called "Euro" style has many assets and advantages a player can utilize and I think they proved that to us in the last Olympics.
I was speaking mainly on the defensive end as all euro's are fundamentally better on the offensive end than their American counter parts.  Even the worst euro players comming to the NBA can shoot :::cough slava medastanko cough::

Their defensive style is a little on the soft side overseas.  They are not use to banging with such massive bodies day in and day out.  Plus the whole psychological side of getting in someone's head on the defensive end is something they seem to have no idea about.  Not that it is a bad thing but great defensive players like Rodman, Jordan, Bowen, Pippen all were pretty good at doing that.  In fact whens the last time a great defensive player came from overseas?  Sabonis was very effective for a while but other than him I cant really think of any strong defenders from overseas.

Excellent point Joe...you hit the nail on the head with that post.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 03:03:46 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2005, 03:18:31 PM »
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I cant really think of any strong defenders from overseas.

His name is Andrei Kirilenko, the most entertaining defensive player I've ever seen.  He lead the league last year in blocks with 3.3 while averaging 1.6 steals.  The year before he averaged 2.8 blocks and 1.9 steals.  The year before that was 2.2 blocks and 1.5 steals in only 27 minutes a game.  And those numbers don't tell you anything about what this guy does for a team on the defensive end.  Had he played 82 games last year, you're talking about a lock for the Defensive Player of the Year!!  
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 03:32:01 PM »
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At point guard - an older underclassman, or a college senior.

Baron Davis - Sophomore
Mike Bibby  - Sophomore
Jason Kidd   - Sophomore
Chauncey Billups - Sophomore
Stephon Marbury - Freshman

I don't thing an old underclassmen or senior is necessary, Joe.  
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2005, 03:43:47 PM »
And of those, which developed quickly?  Davis - who many people think should move to the 2 (and I don't agree), Bibby - the son of a journeyman NBA point guard, and Kidd.  

Billups took a good number of years, playing both the point and the 2, and several different teams.  Only two teams have ever really regarded him highly - Minnesota and Detroit.  And Marbury is the classic example of what you DON'T want your point guard to be.

Although I must admit, there are a couple of other great examples from history:  Magic and Isiah were underclassmen - Magic a sophomore and Isiah a freshman, I believe.  (Not sure about that.)  Still, you're looking for maturity and stability - and to avoid the folks whose heads either aren't or won't be screwed on straight.

 
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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2005, 04:15:44 PM »
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Billups took a good number of years, playing both the point and the 2, and several different teams. Only two teams have ever really regarded him highly - Minnesota and Detroit. And Marbury is the classic example of what you DON'T want your point guard to be.

I gave you a list of 5 of the top 7 or so PGs in the NBA today, the others being Nash and Francis (maybe Hinrich...maybe).  

True that Billups took a while to develop into a top-flight PG, it also took a while for him to get significant minutes.  Boston and Toronto didn't play him; he was injury plagued in Denver; and even playing well in Minnesota didn't garner him significant minutes.

About Marbury, he's got that stigma, if he's your best player you are a BAD team.  Still, you can't deny a 20.9 PPG and 8.3 APG career averages, and it took him no time to produce significantly right out of college.

Also forgot to include Gilbert Arenas - Sophomore.          
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2005, 04:34:11 PM »
The Spurs deserve a lot of credit for assembling a team of foreign stars.  They've done the work, picked wisely (most of the time) and have great players in Parker and Ginobli.

It make sense for the NBA scouts to look over the whole world for b-ball players.  The best player from Argentina can be better than any American who got drafted by the NBA for years.  Europe puts out a lot of players too.  Nowitsky was a better pick than most of the people in his year.

The problem is scouts and front offices are dumb.  Why didn't any team pick Kobe before he was drafted, and why would anyone pick him and then trade him.  There was a story in the Inquirer a few days ago, talking about their chance to have picked Kobe.  

For many years the Spurs have done a significantly better job of identifying and signing talent than many teams, including Philadelphia.  By contrast, Detroit did it though the free agent market signing established players and building a team.

Clearly the teams with the better front-offices, owners and scouts, have a huge advantage over the other teams.  One thing you can say about Larry Brown is that he knows how to assemble a team that will play his style.  The ability to pick talent is the hardest part, and even the best scouts make major mistakes year after year.      

Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2005, 04:45:31 PM »
...Gary Payton, Dwyane Wade, Andre Miller, Jason Terry, T.J. Ford, Brevin Knight...of these guys, every one of them hit the ground running in their career.  And for sure, I'd put at least Wade, Payton, and Miller ahead of Marbury REGARDLESS of Stephon's numbers.  And I actually used to LIKE Marbury.

 
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Offline ziggy

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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2005, 04:45:41 PM »
Quote
Quote
At point guard - an older underclassman, or a college senior.

Baron Davis - Sophomore
Mike Bibby  - Sophomore
Jason Kidd   - Sophomore
Chauncey Billups - Sophomore
Stephon Marbury - Freshman

I don't thing an old underclassmen or senior is necessary, Joe.
Here is a list of "decent" (my definition) Seniors, Juniors, Sophmore and Freshman PG, since 1995

Seniors  (total # of Seniors drafted 329)
Kirk Hinrich
Damon Stoudamire
Andre Miller
Jason Terry
Antonio Daniels
Steve Nash
Jameer Nelson
Derek Fisher
Jamaal Tinsley
Speedy Claxton
Eric Snow
Rafer Alston
Alvin Williams
Jeff McInnis

Juniors  (total # of Juniors drafted 60)
Steve Francis
Dwyane Wade
Jay Williams
Devin Harris
Jason Williams
Luke Ridnour
Tyronn Lue

Sophomores  (total # of Sophomores drafted 43)
Allen Iverson
Mike Bibby
Chauncey Billups
Baron Davis
T.J. Ford
Gilbert Arenas

Freshman  (total # of Freshman drafted 27)
Stephon Marbury
Jamal Crawford
Chris Duhon


Of the 6 PG's drafted in the first round this year,  1 was a Senior (Head), 4 were juniors (Williams, Felton, Jack, Nate Robinson), and one a Sophmore (Paul).  I would say you have as much probability of getting a decent PG drafting a Junior or a Sophmore than a Senior.  I would also say that the probability of getting a good to very good PG is greater with Juniors and Sophmores than Seniors.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2005, 04:49:20 PM »
Ford was only a sophomore?  I thought he was a senior.  Wow.
 
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Offline Reality

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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2005, 04:51:18 PM »
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The first stat line is Eddie Curry and the second is Zydrunas Illguskis.

With regards to college senior centers.  Beyond Tim Duncan what other senior centers of the past 12 drafts have really been effective?

Jamaal Magloire
Big Country Reeves
Raef LaFrentz
Theo Ratliff
Kurt Thomas

others that played reasonable minutes
Brendon Haywood
Greg Ostertag
Kelvin Cato

So you get 1 effective senior center every other year.  I would have to do a little more reserch, but I would have to say that is similar to juniors and sophomores.
zig,

I am all ears if you can come up with some long term Center postition draft stats period.  It seems like in the 80's and early 90s there was always at least several good-very good-great centers at all times.  Bob Parish Kareem Olajuwon Mo Malone Ewing Shaq...

Now it seems there is an excellent center once every 10 years?  What is the pattern?  When was the last one, Duncan and he's a natural PF-SF combo.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 04:52:48 PM by Reality »

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2005, 04:58:54 PM »
Quote
Ford was only a sophomore?  I thought he was a senior.  Wow.
http://www.basketballreference.com/players...?ilkid=FORDTJ01

Drafted in 2003 and was considered Class of 2005.

I also made a mistake on Eric Dampier.  I had him as a Senior, but in reality he was a Junior.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Skandery

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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2005, 05:36:06 PM »
Quote
...Gary Payton, Dwyane Wade, Andre Miller, Jason Terry, T.J. Ford, Brevin Knight...of these guys, every one of them hit the ground running in their career. And for sure, I'd put at least Wade, Payton, and Miller ahead of Marbury REGARDLESS of Stephon's numbers. And I actually used to LIKE Marbury.

Okay, once again, I'm talking about if you take the top PGs in the NBA today.  Let's randomly assign the number 8.  The top 8 PGs in the game, today.  For our purposes why don't we exclude Iverson, Wade, Francis, and Terry since they've all played significant SG minutes.  

1. Kidd - Soph
2. Davis - Soph
3. Marbury - Fresh
4. Arenas  - Soph
5. Billups  - Soph
6. Bibby  - Soph
7. Hinrich - Senior
8. Miller - Senior

I will listen to dissenting opinions on this tentative list but can we agree that this is close?  Sorry to those people who feel that I'm taking Ridnour and Cassell for granted. :rolleyes:   This counts 6 of 8 or 75% of the PGs were sophs or younger.  The likes of Payton and Stoudamire may, in the past, have been top flight point guards, but not today.  Brevin Knight and the slew of names Ziggy gave us are either journeyman or have not yet made on this exclusive list.  So going back to my point, recent drafts have shown that one does not need a senior or junior to draft a capable, talented, PG that is ready to produce.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 05:36:45 PM by Skandery »
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