OT:US Questions Vatican Role In World War Two

[spursfan101]

From the Catholic World News website. (Shocking...and I'm Catholic.)

WASHINGTON, DC (CWNews.com) - The US State Department issued a new report on Tuesday that says the Vatican may have helped Nazis and their allies escape justice after World War Two, saying Vatican resistance to opening records leads to that conclusion.

Undersecretary of State Stuart Eizenstat oversaw the preparation of the 180-page report that says the US discovered evidence in its classified archives that "senior officials" of the Holy See knowingly used gold stolen from national treasuries and from Holocaust victims to hide Croatian Nazi allies in Italy and help them escape Europe after World War Two.

The report says no evidence was found that Pope Pius XII knew of the matter, but added that Vatican refusals to open secret archives prevent a definitive answer. The Vatican has refused to open the archives, including on two separate occasions this year when asked by US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright during meetings with Pope John Paul II (bio - news) in Rome, because they contain sensitive material related to sacramental matters.

The fascist Ustasha party held power in Croatia during World War Two and murdered at least 700,000 people in concentration camps. The US report says the Vatican "was aware of the killing campaign" but nevertheless "remained supportive" of the Ustasha regime. It adds that the Ustasha had about $80 million in gold, gathered from throughout Europe by the Nazis and routed through secret Swiss bank accounts, at the end of the war.

In 1944, the Ustasha government began using the money to help senior Ustasha officials flee Croatia to Italy. The report describes the Vatican's College of San Girolamo degli Illirici in Rome as a "center of Ustasha covert activity and a Croatian underground that helped Ustasha refugees and war criminals escape Europe after the war." It also says Father Krunoslav Stefano Dragonovic, who was an Ustasha colonel, led the effort, hiding many Ustashi officials at the college provided them with false identity cards and helping them emigrate illegally to South America.
 

[WayOutWest]

LMAO!  :lol:

You're surprised?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Catholic church was the foundation for NAMBLA!

[Laker Fan]

Adolph Hitler was a Roman Catholic; Adolph Hitler was NEVER condemned by nor excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Pius XII’s Catholic Church not only turned a blind eye to what was happening across Europe but also was complicit in making sure it was carried out. The Vatican signed a Concordat with the Nazi government whereby it agreed not to interfere with Germany’s plans or intention with regard to war and the Jews.

One historian wrote concerning this concordat: “The Concordat [with the Vatican] was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source.” During the celebrations at the Vatican, Pacelli conferred on von Papen (vice Chancellor of Germany) the high papal decoration of the Grand Cross of the Order of Pius. Winston Churchill, in his book The Gathering Storm, published in 1948, tells how von Papen further used “his reputation as a good Catholic” to gain church support for the Nazi takeover of Austria. In 1938, in honor of Hitler’s birthday, Cardinal Innitzer ordered that all Austrian churches fly the swastika flag, ring their bells, and pray for the Nazi dictator

In October, 1943, the German SS arrested and imprisoned more than 1,000 Jews in Rome in the very shadow of the Vatican. Not only did Hitler’s pope not condemn the action, he refused to sign the letter of protest the German High Command in the city had drafted in his behalf to lend legitimacy to his apostate church. When the Jews were deported to their deaths at Auschwitz and Birkenau, Hitler’s pope watched in silence as they were driven away in cattle trucks to their doom.

I have been largely silent on the subject of religion here my friends, out of respect for you people here, and out of respect for your right to believe the way you choose, even the unbelievable contradictory faith of the LDS church (no offense Ted, I have considerable knowledge of your religion and so I am not spouting some hearsay, but I have to say what I believe at this point). I will take this opportunity however, to point out that all roads DO NOT lead to God and not all who claim to be Christians are, otherwise Jesus himself would not have talked about the cramped and narrow road leading to life and FEW finding it, and the broad and spacious road leading to destruction and many are the ones on that road. Paul made it clear that the apostasy we would see after the death of the apostles meant that many on that broad and spacious road previously mentioned would claim to be “Christian”.

The fact that all roads do not lead to God is never more clearly demonstrated than in the history of the Catholic Church, its guilt in the Holocaust, which by the way cost hundreds of people of my faith their lives right alongside Jews and other “undesirables”, is merely a microcosm of its guilt throughout its history of brutality, evil, and political intrigue. It is basically the very antithesis of what Christianity and the teachings of Jesus were and are all about. That same label hangs on the Protestant faith as well with its political leaders who usurps the right of people in this system to live lives free of fear. Radical Islam and its hatred and racism is no better and certainly bears not even the remotest resemblance to the worship their God requires, that God by the way, is in reality their version of the God of the Bible, Islam and Judaism share Abraham as their forefather and worshipped the same God for centuries.

If I have offended anyone here I apologize, but I take umbrage at the notion that religion can have some good in it in the face of their inherent evil and that’s OK. It is not, and it has never been, the standard the God I worship approves.

[spursfan101]

Very insightful Dan.  Which "denomination" do you belong to?

[spursfan101]

Actually, Adolph Hitler was BORN Catholic, but didn't follow or believe in it's teachings.  They did however, make aggreements , both to help the struggling Catholic Church out financially, but also, to help  Hitler with his political endeavors and gain support from many Catholics in that era.  It was a "win-win" situation.  For them anyways.  

[WayOutWest]

Dan,

I think everyone on this board is mature enough to handle discussions about religion, politics and even the Lakers dynasty.

I was brought up Catholic.  In school I was facinated by outer space, computers and WWII.  Spent countless hours on those subjects outside of normal school work. Through my WWII obsession I quickly began to see problems with Catholics.  I dropped Catholics around age 16 because I understood what they are truely about.  I dropped God all together around age 22 cuase I understood what he was all about.  I've had doubts about my beliefs, or lack of, since then but I still know the truth so it keeps me in line.

Still, I enjoy discussion the matter as much as any subject.

[Laker Fan]

Your comments over the years WOW have lead me to believe that your conflict with religion is the same as mine, it is based on the blatant hypocrisy of not only its tenets and doctrines, but also its adherents, who preach love and peace out of one side of their mouth while plotting the murder and mayhem for which they are legendary. One British general in WWI comment that “religion is the finest bloodlust fomenter we have, and of them we make free use”.

I also feel perhaps your conflict with God is perhaps based in part on the problem you have with organized religion and the misconceptions put forth as to who He is and what He represents, modern Christendom in NO WAY WHATSOEVER reflects Him, His qualities, or His purpose for mankind or this Earth.

Having been raised a Catholic and later spent time in Baptist and Pentecostal churches as well and looked quite deeply into the beliefs of my Apache ancestry, I completely understand your skepticism and disgust with what has been done “in the name of God”. I just don’t want to offend people on such a highly volatile subject as this because reasoning and meaningful dialogue is to me the only way it should ever be discussed, rather than God-dishonoring, heated and hate filled arguing, but alas! Such is more often than not the case when religion comes up.

101, I specifically avoid mentioning my religion because it is not typically what I come on this board to discuss, and it is not too kindly received by a lot of people. Suffice to say I am a Christian, and I live my life (or try to) by the standards of solely the Bible and take very seriously the teachings of the Christ and try to imitate his peaceful, compassionate example as best I can.

As a side note, Jesus was executed on an upright stake with no cross-beam, not a cross as has been depicted for nearly 2,000 years. It is also curious to me that there was no secular evidence whatsoever of Pontius Pilate other than the writing of Flavius Josephus and it wasn’t until archeologists uncovered a stone slab in Caesarea in 1961 bearing his name and that of Tiberius that historians finally acknowledged his existence, it was only then that they acknowledged that Josephus’ writings about what kind of person he was were in all likelihood accurate. That aside, there is no question the apostate Jewish religious leaders of Jesus’ day were instrumental in orchestrating his execution by taking advantage of the rebelliousness of the Jews and Pilate’s desire to quell the troubles of the time without violence. The shout when Jesus was presented by Pilate as their king of “We have no king but Caesar!” put Pilate in the position of denying the emperor, a crime carrying the death penalty, the scriptures say he handed him over “TO THE JEWS” to be impaled.

These facts do not justify anti-Semitism or any type of racism, but they are facts, and rewriting history to fit some politically correct agenda should never be acceptable. The Protestants of old Europe are responsible for the destruction of millions of lives in the Americas in “the name of God” so they can hardly point to the Jews and say “you murdered the Christ” when their own hands drip with the blood of innocents as well

[WayOutWest]

Dan,

Most of my beef with God is about religion, I'd say about 90%.

I do have beef with most of the Gods worshipped around the world today.  My biggest problem with him is the idea of him being a "fathter'.  IMO there are tons of fathers, myself included, who are a 100X better than "him".  My kids don't have to earn my love or follow certain rules to get into heaven.  If the gift of heaven was within my power, I wouldn't put my children through the confusion and hardships that we have, do and will endure.  IMO the idea of God is more akin to a master and his pet/servent, a harsh and cruel joke or some kind of experiment.  In either case "he" does not deserve my eternal devotion.

 

[Ted]

Dan, I take no offense. I know quite about and have great respect for your beliefs. Growing up in Illinois, some of my parents' closest friends were a Jehovah's Witness couple. I was friends with their children and learned much of what they believe. They spent hours and hours every week proselyting, spreading the gospel. I am hard pressed to think of a family more devoted to their religious beliefs; much like you are devoted to yours. I have great respect for anyone who devotes themselves so fully.

I know you don't like to discuss your beliefs on this board. I totally understand and empathize with that. But would you mind answering an honest question? Please answer by email (rustedhart@hotmail.com).

I've never clearly understood the doctrine of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations 7:4 and 14:1. Is it a limitation on the number of people who go to heaven or merely a symbol?

[WayOutWest]

I've never clearly understood the doctrine of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations 7:4 and 14:1. Is it a limitation on the number of people who go to heaven or merely a symbol?

That's what I remember most about one particular group, not sure if it's Jehovah's whitnesses or not but I think they're the one's who think they are the 144K.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you wouldn't mind that, but I understood the 144K were going to by-pass the suffering that will come with the end of days and go strait to heaven.  The rest would have to endure the hardship then be judged BUT they still have a shot at heaven.

Is that correct?

[Joe Vancil]

Some typify the number "12" as being a number that is "complete," and therefore, 12 x 12 (x 1000) would be a symbol of "completeness."

Personally, I don't think it matters which things are symbolic and which are literal.  The Bible teaches that "by grace are ye saved through faith."  It's God's love that saves us, and we need to have more faith than we do in God's love.  Heaven has room for everyone that believes and trusts in God;  amount of room isn't our problem.  

 

[Laker Fan]

That is not correct, most of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation have already died and are in heaven, the apostles and first century Christians were among that number and most of them died painful martyrs deaths, the first and second century Christians died horribly at the hands of the Roman Empire. God does not promise anyone they will not suffer, only that he will give them the strength to endure and a promise of everlasting life to those that are faithful.

As far as it being a literal number, Revelation mentions this number specifically and says that only they are bought FROM the earth to be in heaven, but since flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of the heavens, the 144,000 must die first to be resurrected to that position. Those with an earthly hope, the great crowd which no on was able to number, out of all nations and peoples and tribes and tongues mentioned at Revelation 7:9 have the prospect of surviving Armageddon and living on to help bring the earth back to its original paradise condition. God’s purpose to have an earthly paradise populated with a perfect human race did not change with Adam and Eve’s sin, only the method whereby it would be carried out changed, that being Christ dying to purchase back that which Adam and Eve lost. So than if the 144,000 are mentioned specifically by number as being privileged to rule in heaven with Christ and yet the great crowd is unnumbered, logic indicate that yes, it is a literal number. And by the way WOW, we are being judged even now, those already dead and awaiting a resurrection have already paid for their sins according to Romans 6:7, so they are judged based on their actions AFTER their resurrection, not before.

[Ted]

Thanks Dan, that clears up a lot of misinterpretation on my part. I've been to the Watchtower Society web site, and although it's very helpful, it doesn't clear up all of the misinformation going around about your beliefs. Some people tend to give the most radical interpretation to another's faith.

[WayOutWest]

And by the way WOW, we are being judged even now, those already dead and awaiting a resurrection have already paid for their sins according to Romans 6:7, so they are judged based on their actions AFTER their resurrection, not before.

I don't understand that statement Dan.  If you die you pay for your sins and are then judged being worthy to enter heaven AFTER based on your actions after ressurection?

I don't follow that, I thought after you died you would be ressurected and judged based upon the life you lived.

[Lurker]

I guess I should chime in on the religion front...especially since there were hints in the other thread regarding gay marriages.  I was born & raised Catholic....to the extent of attending Catholic schools all the way through high school.  I figured that between the ages of 5 and 18 I attended Mass over 200 times a year.  I also quickly lost respect for organized religions.  I have found over the years that every organized religion preaches a much holier than thou lifestyle.   But quickly backtrack on love thy neighbor when thy neighbor doesn't fit the religion's ideal of what constitutes a good neighbor.  Let's feed the poor but only with your money not the hoardes that we sit on at the central church.

As far as whether there is a heaven....that is a good question.  The only "person" who supposedly went there & returned was Jesus.  And by living our lives based on his example we will all someday end up "there".  But there is a small nagging voice inside me that says "what if it don't get any better than it is now?"  Or in other words what if after death all that we can expect is a hole 6 feet deep?

Now if you carry this too far you reach a point of total disrespect for any other being on the planet and even disrespect towards your own being in a way.  An interesting thought....but one that leads to great bitterness.  Therefore I reached the conclusion that even if there is no greater reward it is best to live and enjoy the now.  And to fully live your life needs to be shared with others.  And the best way to enjoy the company of others is to treat all people as you want to be treated (I never said Jesus didn't have some good ideas).  And to the extent that the actions of others don't harm me or those closest (emotionally not physically) to me then those others should be free to live & enjoy their lives to the fullest.

This all then comes back to my position on gay marriages and the rights of others to pursue happiness in this great country of ours.  If it doesn't impact me then why should I care what others do.  If two men or two women or...to the extreme...100 men & women want to call themselves married and receive the same governmental (vs religous) rights as heterosexual marriages then they should have the freedom to do so.