Shaq v Wade

[westkoast]

You talking about tap dancing?  "We werent on the board before 2003."

Yes what division was Shaq unable to get alone?  He and Bryant played together almost the entire time in Lakerville.

Another misquote lil buddy?  It was more like 'We all werent posting together then'

Kobe was a non-factor the first 2 years he was on the team.  His rookie season he managed to play a whoopin 15 minutes a game and started like 7.  20-something minutes the following year.

[Reality]

You talking about tap dancing?  "We werent on the board before 2003."

Yes what division was Shaq unable to get alone?  He and Bryant played together almost the entire time in Lakerville.

Another misquote lil buddy?  It was more like 'We all werent posting together then'

Kobe was a non-factor the first 2 years he was on the team.  His rookie season he managed to play a whoopin 15 minutes a game and started like 7.  20-something minutes the following year.

Well we're all taking Shaq.  You can hold his inability to get a division title in '97-98 against him.   The 100+ games without Kobe over several years, of which Shaq won 80% is a reference on the subject of Shaq alone.

Are you seriously attempting to spineless out by now saying "we weren't posting together".  What is that supposed to mean?  And bring it up on the original thread, stop twisting Skanders.

[westkoast]

Are you seriously attempting to spineless out by now saying "we weren't posting together".  What is that supposed to mean?  And bring it up on the original thread, stop twisting Skanders.

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Explain to me what Shaq winning without Kobe has to do with the 2004-2005 season?  Kobe isnt Wade, Wade isnt Kobe.  Shaq isnt the same Shaq he was then.  The Heat arent the Lakers and the Lakers arent the Heat.  Stay on topic here.  We all are clearly talking about Shaq or Wade....not Shaq or Kobe.  Wade has the potential to be the better player of him and Kobe.

[rickortreat]

It's a stupid discussion.  It's a team game and you need both players to compete successfully.

But Shaq is far and away the best center in the league and very hard to replace. No one is his equal now, and for the foreseeable future.  I can think of 10-15 players that could fill Wade's role with the Heat.  That isn't taking anything away from Wade, either.  Put Larry Hughes on that team and he'd fill the role Wade is.  Put Iverson in there and there'd be no need for anyone to even play them!  

With that said, you still need the rest of the players on the Heat, still playing their supporting roles.  

[Guest_Randy]

Rick, personally, I don't think AI is any better than Wade -- different perhaps but not better.  Personally, I would prefer Wade because he doesn't jack up as many shots and shoots a better fg%.  AI, of course, brings different intangibles -- like more steals.  Wade doesn't have a problem deferring to Shaq at times -- AI has a problem deferring to anyone.

[westkoast]

Wade doesn't have a problem deferring to Shaq at times --

Apparently this is the best thing he does according to the marketing geniuses over at the NBA offices.

[Laker Fan]

Interesting thread, digressions and diatribes aside.

I agree with Koast, this is a fundamentally flawed question in that this team is the sum of its parts, specifically Shaq and Wade, and therefore you can't remove one piece and remain competitive as you go deeper into the playoffs, hence, choosing one over the other will net you exactly 0 rings.

The more debatable question is: Which one would you say is a must have and whom would you replace the other with and expect to win it all right now, this year?

Framed that way, for a one shot deal at a ring, the logical choice would be keep Shaq, pick up Lebron and get fitted for the Bling Bling right now. It is also the foolish choice because you would be a fool to let Wade get away, he is Lebron's equal, and Iverson's and McGrady's superior, McGrady's because he isn't a whine dog that I've seen a tendancy to choke in and Iverson's for more reasons than I can enumerate, not the least of which he is a team player and apparantly a pretty decent human being. Additionally, He is still very young and he shows a potential only Kobe has shown in recetn years, and he shows it without the selfishness of Kobe or Iverson, Lebron is the only one close to him and from the games I've seen, Wade is better at the fundamentals which makes him more valuable.

It would also be the foolish choice in that Shaq got himself in good shape this year, he slimmed down, he worked out he committed, for strictly egotistical reasons, to making the Lakers look foolish and to winning a ring in Miami, and he still didn't make it through the entire season, and no, I don't think the Jermaine O'Neal bump was all that bad, this cat just has a lot of mileage, and to think he will last and be effective more than another 2-3 years is to be optimistic indeed, and to give up Wade for that is ridiculous.

And no, Joe, dynasties do not happen because all of a sudden a team is committed to winning, they happen because the Jerry West's and of the world have a game plan, and they slowly assemble the pieces needed to win and replace those pieces as needed, the Lakers happened because of the build it with right pieces mentality, it certainly didn't happen overnight, the Spurs little mini-dynasty happened because they realized they needed to assemble a team that could beat the Jazz, who had assembled a team to beat Houston and LA, etc.





 

[Reality]

I agree with Koast, this is a fundamentally flawed question in that this team is the sum of its parts, specifically Shaq and Wade, and therefore you can't remove one piece and remain competitive as you go deeper into the playoffs, hence, choosing one over the other will net you exactly 0 rings.

The more debatable question is: Which one would you say is a must have and whom would you replace the other with and expect to win it all right now, this year?

Framed that way,

You mean like the original thread started by Skandery:

"Seems like everyone is beating around the bush about this whole Shaq v Wade deal; who is truly the Heat's main guy. I'll go ahead and ask the question

If you had the first round, first pick in real life to put together a team to win the championship "THIS" year. I repeat: to win the championship *THIS* year. Whose it gonna be, Shaq or Wade??"

[Skandery]

Just a small sidenot.  My actual first name is Skander, the y that is tacked on is the first letter of my last name.  So while I guess I don't mind too much, it's weird to be called Skandery.  But I know its confusing b/c its my handle on the forum.  Anyway....  

Laker Fan:

Framed that way, for a one shot deal at a ring, the logical choice would be keep Shaq, pick up Lebron and get fitted for the Bling Bling right now.

This is the point that I'm trying to make.  Championships are built on the strength of dominant centers.  Of which none is more dominant than Shaq is today.  As many poster have stated, Shaq is not as easy to replace.  This is *NOT* a slam or a disrespectful attidtude towards Dwayne Wade.  On of my favorite players to watch today and will continue to observe his career with great interest.  But the fact remains, there are more players who "do" what Wade does than players who "do" what Shaq does.  

In Derek's and Rick's wildest dreams, if Miami were to trade Shaq to Philly for Marc Jackson.  I'm pretty sure the talent and desire of Wade would carry Miami pretty far.  But the sheer presence and dominance of Shaq and the subsequent confidence of shooters like Iverson, Korver, McKie, Green, Salmons, and Iquodala would instantaneously make Philly the clear favorite to win the championship.  

Now I don't disagree that Shaq's present status is going to last forever.  I agree that in as little as two years, we might very well see a significant drop off.  But the climate of the National Basketball Association of today has Shaq as the most dominant player in the league which means as good of a shot as anyone's going to get at getting that elusive ring.    

[Reality]

Just a small sidenot.  My actual first name is Skander, the y that is tacked on is the first letter of my last name.  So while I guess I don't mind too much, it's weird to be called Skandery.  But I know its confusing b/c its my handle on the forum.  Anyway....  



 But the climate of the National Basketball Association of today has Shaq as the most dominant player in the league which means as good of a shot as anyone's going to get at getting that elusive ring.

Skander,

Spelling your name correctly i can do.
Calling Shaq more dominant then Timmy Dunker i cannot.
See JoeV for what Dunker would do with a real offensive coach.  Altho i think JoeV may consider Shaq more dominant then Dunker.

Either way, Shaq/Dunkan/Garnett 1 2 3 3 2 1, it's a very centerless NBA in 2005.  Which just makes the points about a C Shaq being able to do more then a Wade SG all the more valid...

 

[westkoast]

Skander,

I think we all agree that no one can replace Shaq and there are two who could replace Wade (one being disqualified for attitude towards/relationship with Shaq).  The thing is that Wade has shown in 2 years that he could possibly be the best 2-guard in the league for a long time to come.  The only other person who is better than him is Kobe and that is based off the fact that Kobe has delivered more in the playoffs......because hes been around longer.  Wade last year has done something Kobe hasnt and thats be the only top player on a team and get them to the second round.  His rookie season!!!  Do you pass up a talent like Wade to have 2 good years with Shaq?  Or do you chose Wade because you can always go back out and get a big man (never of Shaq's caliber obviously) that can help Wade and he will be a star for the next decade?  I understand the question was *this year* however that decision would effect the team for many many years.

Not all championship teams start with a top center...the Bulls won 6 championships with Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, etc.  Not that Wade is Jordan or anything but it is possible with the right pieces.

[JoMal]

Man oh man. Sometimes it takes just about all of my patience to 'wade' through some of these threads, no offense "Skander".

But this one is totally a no brainer. There are only two players around whom you could seriously build a championship team in TODAY'S NBA. Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan. Let's not even discuss their obvious back-to-the-basket dominant skills in the low post. That is why they are great players.

But they both bring that one, indominable intangible to the teams they play for. That one thing that only a player like Bird, Magic, Jordan, and maybe a handful of others (Russell and Champerlain - I knew I would remember them) could bring. They instill total confidence in their teammates. In the fragile ego-driven world of the touchy-feelly average NBA player, who struggles nightly to overcome this dreaded weakness, which can simply be described as self-doubt, having a fallback player like Shaq back there simply is indescribable in its importance.

That is why a team that really is not that great individually, after Wade and Shaq, can just overwhelm an insecure team like the Wizards if O'Neal has to sit out a few games. The Heat to a man know that Shaq will be back and they can relax and just play their game with confidence. WOW! Is that ever handy in the playoffs!!

As for Wade, he clearly is becoming the class of the draft of 2003, which is saying something. His confidence, with Shaq at his side, is overwhelming, and it shows up by how easily the game comes to him when you have his skills and a teammate like Shaq. Put Lebron James in the rotation with Shaq for a year and you would swear it was Michael Jordan incarnate and Shaq once again would be shoved aside as the arguement focused on how we all would want to build our championship squad around this new phenom.

If timing were an NBA asset to be measured, I would have to say Wade's timing was All Star calibre.  

[Skandery]

Westkoast:

Wade last year has done something Kobe hasnt and thats be the only top player on a team and get them to the second round. His rookie season!!!

You really are underestimating the value and contributions of players like Lamar Odom (arguably the Heat MVP last year), Caron Butler (who sure has showcased his talents for your team), and Brian Grant (tough as nails and a double-double waiting to happen), during Miami's playoff run last year.  

JoMal:

But they both bring that one, indominable intangible to the teams they play for. That one thing that only a player like Bird, Magic, Jordan, and maybe a handful of others (Russell and Champerlain - I knew I would remember them) could bring. They instill total confidence in their teammates. In the fragile ego-driven world of the touchy-feelly average NBA player, who struggles nightly to overcome this dreaded weakness, which can simply be described as self-doubt, having a fallback player like Shaq back there simply is indescribable in its importance.

Better said than I would've dreamed, JoMal!  It's what I was trying to get at with my Philly hypothetical.  

Reality:

Calling Shaq more dominant then Timmy Dunker i cannot.
See JoeV for what Dunker would do with a real offensive coach. Altho i think JoeV may consider Shaq more dominant then Dunker.

It is six of one, half dozen of another, but I do believe Shaq has had better success in the head-to-head in the playoffs.    




 

[westkoast]

"You really are underestimating the value and contributions of players like Lamar Odom (arguably the Heat MVP last year), Caron Butler (who sure has showcased his talents for your team), and Brian Grant (tough as nails and a double-double waiting to happen), during Miami's playoff run last year. "

Wouldnt you be underestimating Eddie Jones, Zo, Christian Laetner, Haslem, and the rest of the guys when talking about the Heat being nothing without Shaq?

Caron Butler was injured for most of last year (Wasnt 100% in the playoffs).  Odom played well but it was Wade who was the leader and was dropping all the points.  I remember specifically because I made posts here last year about how Wade should have won the ROY but since the playoffs come after the award, he got shafted.  He was amazing last year for a rookie.

[Skandery]

Wouldnt you be underestimating Eddie Jones, Zo, Christian Laetner, Haslem, and the rest of the guys when talking about the Heat being nothing without Shaq?

I never said nothing, I said not a champion without Shaq.  And without either Shaq and Wade, they're not a playoff team.

Odom played well but it was Wade who was the leader and was dropping all the points.

In response to your line that Wade was the *only* top player on last years squad, I maintain he was one of two, Odom being the other.  And both of them benefitted greatly from the play of the Butlers, Grants, and Haslems.  Also scoring a buttload of points doesn't necassarily win playoff games (Nash-48 point, L for Phx).  Wade getting the 15 assists in 1 game, or going 15 for 17 from the line, averaging 7 boards from the guard spot, these are the statistics that add up to W's.