Nash Wins MVP

[Guest_Randy]

The fact is, Nash was the difference-maker in Phoenix and it really showed when he had to sit out games due to injury and the Suns could barely get the ball across the midcourt line without looking like they all were wearing Nike clown shoes.

See it all depends on your definition of MVP.  The MVP is most valuable player to his team.  Not necessarily the best basketball player.

So, while steve is always a valuable guy, his value is increased exponentionally because Phx doesn't have a legitimate backup pg on the roster.  Nobody on the team can capably run an nba team outside of steve nash.  So his value to his team was not only what he contributed, but the huge disparity between what he had and what the next guy brought to the table.

If Phx had a competent backup pg, Steve might not have won the award.  But they don't, so his value is increased.

BTW Randy, I disagree with your assessment of th eastern conference.  IMO the East has 3 very good teams, the pacers just aren't at that level right now because their best player is gimpy and 2nd best player suspended.  But when assessing the conference for next year, they have to be in the discussion.

Miami and Detroit are teams that are viable playoff teams in the WC but they are the ONLY teams. If Indy was healthy and Artest wasn't suspended, I'd add them to that list as well but as it is now, only Miami and Detroit would have made the playoffs in the WC -- and the WC is still FAR stronger and tougher than the EC.

Actually, if you read all of that, I stated quite clearly that Indy would have been included if they were healthy and Artest wasn't suspended.  However, you CAN'T refute any of the rest of my comments can you?  The WC is CLEARLY stronger and tougher than the EC -- it shows in the stats from both the WC AND the EC records against each other!!!

[Skander]

My MVP was Shaquille.  

True Nash was instrumental in the Suns performance, True they sucked when he was injured, True he led the NBA in assists.  But it's also true that Shawn Marion is an All-Star, Amare Stoudemire is an All-Star, and one could make cases for the best three point shooter (percentage-wise) Joe Johnson and the best three point shooter (field goals made) Quentin Richardson had all-star caliber years.  

Nash is a very important cog in the Phoenix machine.  That doen't make him the best, most dominant player in the Association nor does it make him the best, most dominant player on the Phoenix Suns.  

Shaq is the most dominant player on the Heat, the most dominant player in the Eastern Conference and now there's no question, the most dominant player in the NBA.  For all the fans who thought Kobe was responsible for those championships, I wonder what they think now??    

 

   

[Guest_Randy]

Skander, who thought that Kobe was responsible for all the titles in LA?  Kobe?  I haven't talked to anyone who even remotely understands basketball who thinks that.  What I will say is that it took BOTH players as well as some solid role players to win those titles in LA.  Ron Harper, Brian Shaq, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Horace Grant -- those are ALL guys who made great contributions to the Lakers titles.  

To say that Shaq is totally responsible is as wrong as saying that Kobe is all responsible.  We can go back to games that Kobe hoisted the Lakers on his shoulders and took them to the W -- same with Shaq.  And the same is true with Miami.  Wade HAS carried this team at times -- Shaq at others -- and role players have stepped up (Haslem is STILL a very underrated player -- watch what the guy gets next year in the free agency) -- same with Mourning.  

I still shake my head when people make statements like this -- it took the TEAM to win those titles -- not just an individual player.  A PERFECT example of that is what happened to LA last year -- the only person keeping the Lakers together as a team was Karl Malone -- when he went down, the Lakers had individual players and not a team -- and they lost to a team who played better as a team than their individual players.  It's just a shame that Kobe and/or Shaq aren't man enough to admit that they needed each other and wouldn't have won titles without the other!!!

[Laker Fan]

I think you might want to reassess your statement that Detroit defeated a "Laker team supposedly in its prime" JoMal. There is no way they were in their prime, supposedly or otherwise. Shaq was extremely fat and out of shape, Malone was injured and a non-factor, Payton was exposed as extremely weak against quality opponents and spent most of the season whining like a girl, chemistry-wise  this team was more dysfunctional than the Osbournes off their meds, they were ripe for the picking, and I place the OVERWHELMING majority of the balme for that implosion squarely on Shaq's shoulders because his selfishness and self-centered egotism makes Kobe look like Albert Sweitzer.

Shaq is not a team player anymore than Kobe is, his bakchanded sabotage of the Lakers last season so he could prove something speaks volumes to that end.

The Heat were still competitive when Shaq was out injured, albeit it in a weak EC, When Nash was down, the Suns just flat died. Who is more important to his team? During the regular season NAsh was, hands down.

[JoMal]

I think you might want to reassess your statement that Detroit defeated a "Laker team supposedly in its prime" JoMal. There is no way they were in their prime, supposedly or otherwise. Shaq was extremely fat and out of shape, Malone was injured and a non-factor, Payton was exposed as extremely weak against quality opponents and spent most of the season whining like a girl, chemistry-wise  this team was more dysfunctional than the Osbournes off their meds, they were ripe for the picking, and I place the OVERWHELMING majority of the balme for that implosion squarely on Shaq's shoulders because his selfishness and self-centered egotism makes Kobe look like Albert Sweitzer.

 

LF - The Lakers were coming off some championship years and still had their core players on the team, plus Payton and Malone, until his injury. Why would you not think that was a team in their prime? No one thought they were ripe for the picking until the Pistons actually started to pick at them.

Shaq is not a team player anymore than Kobe is, his bakchanded sabotage of the Lakers last season so he could prove something speaks volumes to that end.

He also seems to always be involved with championship level teams for the last six years. That is no fluke. Any team that has Shaq on it automatically has the right chemistry to compete for the NBA championship. Even out of shape and fat, as you claim he was, Shaq gets the respect and attention of every other team vying for that title.

It also should be noted that I view last year's championship round as the Pistons and Larry Brown out-coaching and out-playing the Lakers. Frankly, the better team simply won. You can blame Shaq for that or Kobe or Jackson, but the Pistons dictated the outcome more then the Lakers could handle.

I can't believe Shaq was not motivated to win either. He has his own image of how the legacy of his career is going to play out and losing championships does not fit into it. That his team lost led him more then anything to come back in shape for this year, rather then to show up Buss or to diss on his old team.  His mind was no doubt made up to force the Lakers to trade him prior to that series, but his conditioning wasn't any worse against the Pistons then it was in the three previous series leading up to it.  

The Heat were still competitive when Shaq was out injured, albeit it in a weak EC, When Nash was down, the Suns just flat died. Who is more important to his team? During the regular season NAsh was, hands down.

I believe that is what I said was the reason Nash got the MVP. The MVP is not chosen because a player dominates the post season, as Shaq does, but how a player controls the outcome of his team in the regular season. Otherwise, the NBA would wait until the playoffs concluded before chosing the winner.

[Guest_Skandery]

To say that Shaq is totally responsible is as wrong as saying that Kobe is all responsible. We can go back to games that Kobe hoisted the Lakers on his shoulders and took them to the W -- same with Shaq. And the same is true with Miami. Wade HAS carried this team at times -- Shaq at others -- and role players have stepped up (Haslem is STILL a very underrated player -- watch what the guy gets next year in the free agency) -- same with Mourning.

I don't know if the Miami Heat will actually end up winning the title but I'm under the assumption that they probably will.  If they do, I don't think anyone can say it is anything other than trading for Shaq that brought them the title.  

Wade (My early season MVP candidate) has become a legitimate force but playing with Shaq has helped his game by leaps and bounds.  Udonis Haslem has shown considerable maturity and playing off of Shaq has helped.  Eddie Jones has his head in the right place for the first time....oh......since he last played with Shaq.  Damon Jones, a virtual unknown, has become one of the deadliest three point shooters in the NBA, "Sure glad my man doubled you, Shaq."  In Milwaukee, I don't think he ever said "Sure glad my man doubled you, Gadzilla."  Playing with Shaq doesn't just elevate you to becoming one of the best regular season teams, with a high playoff seed.  It gives you the chance to win the title.  

Playing with Nash gives you a darn good regular season record,  he has done it before with Dallas.  But until he proves me wrong (and he just might), playing with Nash means a playoff exit and no chance at a Finals appearance, much less a championship.        

[westkoast]

I think you might want to reassess your statement that Detroit defeated a "Laker team supposedly in its prime" JoMal. There is no way they were in their prime, supposedly or otherwise. Shaq was extremely fat and out of shape, Malone was injured and a non-factor, Payton was exposed as extremely weak against quality opponents and spent most of the season whining like a girl, chemistry-wise  this team was more dysfunctional than the Osbournes off their meds, they were ripe for the picking, and I place the OVERWHELMING majority of the balme for that implosion squarely on Shaq's shoulders because his selfishness and self-centered egotism makes Kobe look like Albert Sweitzer.

 

LF - The Lakers were coming off some championship years and still had their core players on the team, plus Payton and Malone, until his injury. Why would you not think that was a team in their prime? No one thought they were ripe for the picking until the Pistons actually started to pick at them.

Shaq is not a team player anymore than Kobe is, his bakchanded sabotage of the Lakers last season so he could prove something speaks volumes to that end.

He also seems to always be involved with championship level teams for the last six years. That is no fluke. Any team that has Shaq on it automatically has the right chemistry to compete for the NBA championship. Even out of shape and fat, as you claim he was, Shaq gets the respect and attention of every other team vying for that title.

It also should be noted that I view last year's championship round as the Pistons and Larry Brown out-coaching and out-playing the Lakers. Frankly, the better team simply won. You can blame Shaq for that or Kobe or Jackson, but the Pistons dictated the outcome more then the Lakers could handle.

I can't believe Shaq was not motivated to win either. He has his own image of how the legacy of his career is going to play out and losing championships does not fit into it. That his team lost led him more then anything to come back in shape for this year, rather then to show up Buss or to diss on his old team.  His mind was no doubt made up to force the Lakers to trade him prior to that series, but his conditioning wasn't any worse against the Pistons then it was in the three previous series leading up to it.  

The Heat were still competitive when Shaq was out injured, albeit it in a weak EC, When Nash was down, the Suns just flat died. Who is more important to his team? During the regular season NAsh was, hands down.

I believe that is what I said was the reason Nash got the MVP. The MVP is not chosen because a player dominates the post season, as Shaq does, but how a player controls the outcome of his team in the regular season. Otherwise, the NBA would wait until the playoffs concluded before chosing the winner.

Actually JoMaL...there core players were Shaq, Kobe, Horry,George, Fox, Fish, Shaw.  Of those 5 players they only had Fish aside from Shaq/Kobe.  Even Fish was a shell of his former self that year.  Horry left to be a Spur and Fox/George were hurt.

You are also incorrect about Shaq and assuming that he was motivated.  The Lakers lost to the Spurs in Six the year before.  That whole year Shaq was out of shape and Kobe was carrying the load for most of the season.  They get to the playoffs, they lose to the Spurs, and then he comes back into camp the next year the biggest hes been ever.  Not to mention comments made in those 2 championship-less years where he made it clear since he got hurt on company time he should recover on company time.  Shaq bought into the media hype just as much as anyone else in the league.  All the talk of the greatest ever, unstopable, most dominant....all that went to his head and he felt he was so good he did not need to train in the off-season.  He really was good enough to not get in shape when he went up against 80% of the league but when it came to much better teams like Detroit and the Spurs...it was a different story.  How many 40-20 games did he have in the last two playoffs?  1? 2?

As for Skanders comment I agree Shaq does loads for a team but Shaq simply just standing on the court does that.  He could post 10 points and 5 rebounds for the whole year and players around him still will get the benefit of being on his team.  By that standard Shaq should have won the MVP 3 years in a row.   Miami was not a horrible team seeing as they got to the second round last year and only lost to a much more stacked Indy team (took them deep too!).  Phx on the other hand didnt even make the playoffs and had a weak record in the regular season.  I still wouldnt chose Nash because of his defense but between him and Shaq, looking at the difference between this year and last year, id go with Nash.

[JoMal]

Right, WC. Some of their core players were out or inaffective, but the Lakers still were the choice to beat the Pistons because of Shaq. I do believe it was not due to Kobe still being healthy, or Payton and Malone joining the team.

As for Shaq's attitude, it may have been due to his own image of his worth, but that could not be the whole story. His relationship with the team and Kobe was getting worse by the year. That he was demanding an extension and showing up out of shape, or waiting until the year began to take care of medical problems, then demanding and getting traded - those are all indicators of major disatisfaction with something within the organization. There was a root problem not being addressed to his liking.

As a fan of the Lakers, I certainly can understand your anger at him over how he handled it, but honestly, would you want Shaq back on the Lakers in the shape he is in now? And happy? And motivated? Was it really money that was keeping Shaq and the Laker management apart, or was it how Shaq was challenging the problem he was having with them, where it would make the most noise?  

[Laker Fan]

Therein lies the problem JoMal, and hence my beef with "The Big Full of Himself", how he handled it.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Shaq was motivated by anything other than a personal agenda his last 3 years here in the Cosmic Center, inasmuch as everything he did, particularly in his last season, seemed calculated to humiliate and embarass the Lakers organization.

His bad mouthing of fellow teammates, the Lakers in general, and the owner in particular to my way of thinking proves he had little desire to lead The Lakers to another title, but rather it was to punish them and their owner for for some percieved wrongs, real or imagined. HMMMM, Dr. Buss lavishing the highest salary in the NBA on the fattest most out of shape center in the NBA was a terrible thing for Shaq to have to endure wasn't it? The unmitigated gall of the Lakers and Kobe in particular for expecting the highest priced player in the NBA to not wait until the start of the season to have surgery must have really hurt his feeling. After all, he was hurt on company time right? How dare they expect him to be proactive in the offseason and get his fat lazy butt in shape!!!!

Shaq's image of his worth is this, the NBA revolves around him, all hail and bow to him, all quake in fear and kowtow to his whims.

All of your aforementioned "indicators of major disatisfaction with something within the organization" to me means nothing when you sign a contract to play at what should be reasonably expected, the highest level you possibly can, ALL THE TIME.
That "There was a root problem not being addressed to his liking" is absolutely no excuse to sabotage your team and your teammates. I understand what you say about Shaq being aware of his legacy in the NBA, to me, that precisely makes my point, the same twisted self serving thinking that brought you statements and attitudes like "I got hurt on company time, I'll get fixed on company time" is more than capable of reasoning, "I will prove that unless I'm happy, my team will not win a championship, and I will prove that I can leave a bad situation the hurt hero and elevate the next team I play for to championship level". Now, to be honest, I'm unsure of whether that was his reasoning, because quite frankly, I doubt he is capable of anything more than one-dimesional thought, his inability to string 2 coherent sentences together is evidence of that.

But I will tell you this, if I were a betting man, which I am not, if Shaq were to have been injured in the Finals last years bad enough to require some sort of surgical procedure or rehab, and he knew he was going to Miami with an opportunity to humilate his former team by giving the Heat a legit shot at a title, I would mortgage my house to bet money he would have gotten his surgery or started his rehab virtually the day after the season ended, Shaq's motive is not team, Shaq's motive is Shaq, always has been, always will be. We can knock Kobe till the cows come home for being selfish, but Kobe is committed to winning, regardless of whether he feels he has to win singlehandedly, Shaq, "The Big I Make Freethrows When it Counts" has never been about winning, dominating yes, winning no, feeding his ego yes, fulfilling his contractural committment to give 100% all the time NEVER.

[westkoast]

Right, WC. Some of their core players were out or inaffective, but the Lakers still were the choice to beat the Pistons because of Shaq. I do believe it was not due to Kobe still being healthy, or Payton and Malone joining the team.

As a fan of the Lakers, I certainly can understand your anger at him over how he handled it, but honestly, would you want Shaq back on the Lakers in the shape he is in now? And happy? And motivated? Was it really money that was keeping Shaq and the Laker management apart, or was it how Shaq was challenging the problem he was having with them, where it would make the most noise?

The 4 superstars, their success together, and the way they handled the Spurs and Wolves were the reason they were favored to win.  It wasnt simply based on Shaq.  Dont know where you got that idea.

Would we like to have him in shape and motivated like he is now for a few more years? Sure.  Would he have been motivated in LA?  Cant say but more likely than not no.  I remember very well when he first came to the Lakers and once the team got very successfull thats when the motivation left him.  Whatever that stemmed from...whether it was media hype, ego, organization problems, Kobe, at this point it doesnt matter (altough we know it wasnt just Kobe, Buss had a problem with him also).  I dislike my boss but im not going to slowly let my work fall off and off then still expect to get a huge raise come next March.  Certainly I wouldnt yell 'GIMMIE MY MONEY' in a staff meeting or in the middle of the office.

Its one thing to start getting into good shape when you are 28-29-30 its another to wait until you are 32-33-34 to start working out.   Having Shaq on this team would mean in 2-3 years we would have nothing.  At least with keeping Kobe we have a young superstar and if we needed to we could trade him on down the line for something decent (as long Mitch loses his job).

Anyone notice the chronic toe pains and knee pains magically have not came up as frequently this season as they did the previous seasons??  If that doesnt say something about his lack of conditioning I dont know what does.

[Derek Bodner]

Not to deviate from the discussion, but:

Every player who has won an MVP and is elligible to be in the hall of fame has made it into the hall.  I never considered steve nash HOF worthy before this year.  Does steve change this trend?

[Reality]

Every player who has won an MVP and is elligible to be in the hall of fame has made it into the hall.  I never considered steve nash HOF worthy before this year.  Does steve change this trend?

Today?  No way.
Lets see what Phx does in the playoffs the next 5 years.

[Skander]

Every player who has won an MVP and is elligible to be in the hall of fame has made it into the hall. I never considered steve nash HOF worthy before this year. Does steve change this trend?

You hit the nail on the head Derek.  Steve Nash is NOT a hall of famer and shouldn't be considered one now that he's won a dubious MVP award.  I know that's a catch 22.  It's dubious because he's not a hall of famer.    A player has to be a certain level of player, legendary-for a lack of a better term, to be considered the best basketball player of the entire season.  

Back to Shaq:

All of your aforementioned "indicators of major disatisfaction with something within the organization" to me means nothing when you sign a contract to play at what should be reasonably expected, the highest level you possibly can, ALL THE TIME.

Since when does an NBA player signing a contract mean that player is going to give 100% of his effort, 100% of the time, no matter what.  Sounds like you're living in a dream world.  You can fault Shaq for being lazy or having his own personal agenda, but no more than you can fault any NBA player out there (Grant Hill-sign/trade, T-Mac forcing a trade, VC forcing a trade......on and on) with an agenda in mind.  Heck if people didn't know better you'd swear the Vince Carter in Toronto this year was a completely different human being than the Carter in New Jersey.

Another confusing matter I'd like to discuss.  Seems like WestKoast and Laker Fan keep talking about how Shaq maliciously planned to force a trade, lose weight, get in shape, go to Miami, and win a championship.........all just to spite Kobe, Buss, and the Lakers.  I remember Shaq publicly stating on many occasions that the one and only reason he left the Lakers was because Phil Jackson was forced out.  In fact, didn't he wait until the exact day after Phil resigned before telling management he wanted to be traded??  Which is what he said he would do months earlier!  In an interview I saw in ESPN, I remember Shaq stating clearly that what bothered him most about the Laker organization was their professed loyalty to the dynasty yet full cooperation with Kobe to completely dismantle the team from the seams.  Starting with the removal of the man Shaq believed was most responsible for that dynasty, Phil Jackson.  I guess the resignation of Phil Jackson proved to Shaq all he needed to know.  
     
 

[Laker Fan]

Please Skander, Shaq didn't even give 75% and no, I'm not some delusional little idealist who thinks players give 100% because they signed a contract, but Shaq's last 3 years were beyond the pale in terms of conditioning and lack of effort, to the point IMO at least last season of sabotage. And since when did Shaq ever really mean what he said?  Sounds like you're living in a dream world.

[westkoast]

Another confusing matter I'd like to discuss.  Seems like WestKoast and Laker Fan keep talking about how Shaq maliciously planned to force a trade, lose weight, get in shape, go to Miami, and win a championship.........all just to spite Kobe, Buss, and the Lakers

Uhh I didnt bring this up one time.  I was the one who chalked it up to ego, media hype, and the already continued success of the Lakers after the first championship.

When he was traded it def lite a fire under his rear end and he did have something to prove.....that he was the better choice than Kobe and Buss was an idiot for getting rid of him.  I however did not say that he planned to force a trade just to spit on the Lakers.  This sudden motivation came from wanting to prove something.

I remember Shaq publicly stating on many occasions that the one and only reason he left the Lakers was because Phil Jackson was forced out. In fact, didn't he wait until the exact day after Phil resigned before telling management he wanted to be traded??

He may have said that one day but in the local paper and thru the local media outlets he also said that he felt like he should have got the extension for more money because he was the reason the Lakers were able to get Karl and Gary in the first place.  Also because he was the reason people were sitting in the seats at Staples.

Shaq was also mad because they made the decision to move Phil Jackson without talking to him.  No where did he say they fully went along with Kobe to move PJ.  He didnt demand to be traded until he heard the Lakers already decided they wanted to move him from Mitch Kupchek's press confrence.

Out here in LA LA land not only do we get Laker news from ESPN...we get it from the LA Times, OC Register, AM Radio, Fox Sports west 1 and 2, Fox11, and KCAL9.

Not to deviate from the discussion, but:

Every player who has won an MVP and is elligible to be in the hall of fame has made it into the hall. I never considered steve nash HOF worthy before this year. Does steve change this trend? 

Yes he does because hes not a HOF player unless PHX magically wins a title this year and gets deep enough next year to defend. Someone said earlier in the thread that Nash is a great regular season player but is unable to take a team over the top, I agree. On top of that he is very one dimensional. Is one hell of a point guard but his defense is lacking.

IMO he is like the Janet Lee version of Jason Kidd.......almost as good but something is missing that keeps it from being the top dog.