Can Kobe and Odom excel on the same team?

[Guest_Randy]

So far it doesn't seem like it!  Odom just needs to be more aggressive ALL the time on the floor and he simply seems to become a pacifist when Kobe steps on the floor (and sometimes when Kobe ISN'T on the floor).

[westkoast]

IMO Odom is not playing bad.  He just isnt playing exactly how LA fans want him to play.   Rebounding is not exciting in California.   Normally rebounding well is important.  Unless of course you live in Southern California and need to break out the flags.  We want to see dunks cuz movie stars like dunks and we like movie stars.  We also dont want to see defense..we want to see dunks.  Maybe an alley oop or two.  Some fans out here have short attention spans and not only demand but NEED quick results before they lose intrest.

[Guest_Randy]

IMO Odom is not playing bad.  He just isnt playing exactly how LA fans want him to play.   Rebounding is not exciting in California.   Normally rebounding well is important.  Unless of course you live in Southern California and need to break out the flags.  We want to see dunks cuz movie stars like dunks and we like movie stars.  We also dont want to see defense..we want to see dunks.  Maybe an alley oop or two.  Some fans out here have short attention spans and not only demand but NEED quick results before they lose intrest.

I like Odom's rebounding -- what I don't like is his defense and lack of aggression at the offensive end!  The guy doesn't shoot the ball that well unless he establishes himself going to the rim -- unfortunately, he seems reticent to do this and I'm not sure why!  I'm sure some of this is Kobe's presence but even when Kobe was out, he still was hesitant to take it to the rack.  I could REALLY care less if he dunks the ball or not -- he can simply make a layup -- but the Lakers are going to struggle if Odom doesn't help spread the floor and take advantage of bigger, slower players.  There are VERY few PF's in the league that Odom can't drive around -- the PF's are going to PUNISH Odom with their offense -- he needs to punish them on the other end of the court otherwise he hurts the Lakers instead of helping them overall -- even WITH his great rebounding!

[westkoast]

IMO Odom is not playing bad.  He just isnt playing exactly how LA fans want him to play.   Rebounding is not exciting in California.   Normally rebounding well is important.  Unless of course you live in Southern California and need to break out the flags.  We want to see dunks cuz movie stars like dunks and we like movie stars.  We also dont want to see defense..we want to see dunks.  Maybe an alley oop or two.  Some fans out here have short attention spans and not only demand but NEED quick results before they lose intrest.

I like Odom's rebounding -- what I don't like is his defense and lack of aggression at the offensive end!  The guy doesn't shoot the ball that well unless he establishes himself going to the rim -- unfortunately, he seems reticent to do this and I'm not sure why!  I'm sure some of this is Kobe's presence but even when Kobe was out, he still was hesitant to take it to the rack.  I could REALLY care less if he dunks the ball or not -- he can simply make a layup -- but the Lakers are going to struggle if Odom doesn't help spread the floor and take advantage of bigger, slower players.  There are VERY few PF's in the league that Odom can't drive around -- the PF's are going to PUNISH Odom with their offense -- he needs to punish them on the other end of the court otherwise he hurts the Lakers instead of helping them overall -- even WITH his great rebounding!

I do have to agree.  A few games ago, forget which team, there was 3 seperate trips where Odom had a smaller player on him in the paint and he would not take a shot.  He just kept dishing it out to people behind the arc.  That kind of stuff makes me frustrated.

As for his defense...hes never really been that great of a defender to me IMO.  Especially since hes a little thin to be guarding some of the PFs he is put on.

[JoMal]

How did a conversation about whether or not Odom could co-exist with Kobe on the court turn into the issues facing Odom when He is on the court?

There are several players in the NBA that have been given some kind of statutory, de facto superstar status because their egos about their own games transcends the game itself. Kobe is certainly one, Iverson is another, and I would have to include McGrady and Vince Carter as well. What these players do is demand the ball and that all others around them play the game according to how these "de facto superstar" players fully expect them to while they are on the court with them.

The fact is, none of these players can make any longstanding arguement from their play to actually qualify them in any way, shape, or form as the "Superstar" they think they are. Unfortunately, their respective team managements pay them for this false perception, which justifies them to continue to play basketball the same way.

These players, whether it is good for their teams or not, insist on initiating the offense. There simply is no room on their teams for another player with a similar, but perhaps less defined game, who also feels best with the ball in his hands to create his own shot.

So if you see Odom and Kobe at odds with one another on the court, how could you expect to see any other type of situation evolve? If Kobe could not co-exist with Shaq, surely you would not expect a lesser talent like Odom, who just isn't at that superstar level, but still a good player, fit in any better?

The Iverson/Webber combination is starting to look like a fiasco. McGrady and Yao are finally getting along, but that has plenty to do with Yao defering to Tracy with no ego about it. Carter and Kidd are doing well, but that is surely because Kidd is always looking for his teammates and Carter never really fit that mold about being the initiator of the offense, but rather the finisher. With a good point guard, his world is set. But he is not, in my mind, anything more then a one-dimensional  player.

Kobe, however has those championship rings, the hollywood oohs and aahs, and a huge ego about his place in the game to back up his game, at least in his own mind. But as with Iverson, who gets plenty of assists, Kobe passes enough to get those assist totals up because even he realyzes he can't score every time down the court.

The problem is, when do his teammates come out to play a little with him? Who can blame Odom for trying it once in a while without Kobe?

 

[westkoast]

You want to know how it went from Kobe/Odom to talking about what Odom does on the court?  Because Kobe is not the one affecting Odom's game.  This is something he does with or without Kobe.

JoMaL you would be dead on in your second paragraph if Kobe's 'gimmie gimmie' attitude was the main reason Odom plays this way.  Well, its not.  Odom was very passive when Kobe was gone for 15 games.  VERY.    Alot more passive than he should have been seeing as he is the next best offensive player on the team.  Odom loves to pass the ball.  So much so his unselfishness has hurt the team at times.  Can Kobe and Odom exist together? Yes they can and have been.  Odom is the one holding back for whatever reason.  Hes not the kind of player to force the issue and never has been.  He wasnt with the Clippers, he wasnt with the Heat, and he wont be with the Lakers.

[JoMal]

You want to know how it went from Kobe/Odom to talking about what Odom does on the court?  Because Kobe is not the one affecting Odom's game.  This is something he does with or without Kobe.

JoMaL you would be dead on in your second paragraph if Kobe's 'gimmie gimmie' attitude was the main reason Odom plays this way.  Well, its not.  Odom was very passive when Kobe was gone for 15 games.  VERY.    Alot more passive than he should have been seeing as he is the next best offensive player on the team.  Odom loves to pass the ball.  So much so his unselfishness has hurt the team at times.  Can Kobe and Odom exist together? Yes they can and have been.  Odom is the one holding back for whatever reason.  Hes not the kind of player to force the issue and never has been.  He wasnt with the Clippers, he wasnt with the Heat, and he wont be with the Lakers.

westcoast, I guess my point is this. What kind of complementary player is going to play next to Kobe and be as effective as he would be in a different system, say, one that does not cater to a single superstar player? Odom certainly should fit that bill as just a complementary player, and if what you say is true and he has not stepped up his game, then maybe he is not that guy at all.

But who is?

[rickortreat]

I think you're way off base on this, JoMal.  Sure these players you mention dominate their teams, but is that because their selfish or because the other players can't or won't play?

Odom is like a lot of NBA players.  They lack agression in their game.  To be successful in this league you have to want it.  Charles Barkey was short and had a big mouth, but he was a great player because he went at it every night.

AI finally has someone who can carry the weight in Webber who was a star in his own right.  Eventually it will work out, becasue both of them want to win, and are, IMO willing to do what it takes.  They'd get there faster with a better coach, but that's part of the equation.

T-Mac dominates Houston because Yao is another pussy.  Sorry to put it like that, but it is what it is.  Agression wins in basketball on both ends of the floor.  If you're not willing to be agressive you're allways going to be a lesser player.  Also, Houston needed to get some other player who could play with T-Mac and Yao and NOT defer to them.

You know what happens when teamates are agressive?  They pass the ball to them and they win.  

[westkoast]

You want to know how it went from Kobe/Odom to talking about what Odom does on the court?  Because Kobe is not the one affecting Odom's game.  This is something he does with or without Kobe.

JoMaL you would be dead on in your second paragraph if Kobe's 'gimmie gimmie' attitude was the main reason Odom plays this way.  Well, its not.  Odom was very passive when Kobe was gone for 15 games.  VERY.    Alot more passive than he should have been seeing as he is the next best offensive player on the team.  Odom loves to pass the ball.  So much so his unselfishness has hurt the team at times.  Can Kobe and Odom exist together? Yes they can and have been.  Odom is the one holding back for whatever reason.  Hes not the kind of player to force the issue and never has been.  He wasnt with the Clippers, he wasnt with the Heat, and he wont be with the Lakers.

westcoast, I guess my point is this. What kind of complementary player is going to play next to Kobe and be as effective as he would be in a different system, say, one that does not cater to a single superstar player? Odom certainly should fit that bill as just a complementary player, and if what you say is true and he has not stepped up his game, then maybe he is not that guy at all.

But who is?

JoMaL, that one superstar system put in by Rudy T at the begging of the year is fading away.  The Lakers are trying to get back to running the triangle.  That should help take some of the pressure off Odom to take turns with Kobe to score each trip down.   Odom didnt play in a one superstar system whe he was with the Clippers and he played the same exact way.  Same thing with the heat last year.  People are expecting him to play the way they want and dont realize his game has never been that way.  He hasnt stepped up his selfishness, not his game.  Thats just not him.

IMO the person who should get more focus is Caron Butler.  Kobe and him play well together.  The guy can score well and is good at getting to spots to get a nice pass.  I wish the Laker coaches would try to push him more into that second scorer role and let Odom do exactly what hes been doing.  Alot of LA fans are dumb and think its the offense that is the problem...its not.  Its the team defense.

[JoMal]

Bryant and Iverson differ from the well-rounded superstars of past NBA eras. Magic, Bird, and Jordan were clearly in sync with the goals of the team and while they were always deferred to, they never shunned the play of their teammates for what has to be called blatant attempts to overwhelm games by trying to do everything. If Bryant and Iverson shot better then 42%, it could be argued that they should be the prime shot-takers. Since they both (and McGrady) DO shoot only 42%, they just can't qualify as the solution (or ANSWER in A.I.'s case),  but part of the problem.

Rick, here's a suggestion to get Webber more involved. First, have Iverson talk to him about where he would like to receive the ball, then pass it to him there. Don't make it a mystery if he will or won't be passing the ball. Second, let Webber initiate the offense some of the time. If the Sixers do not start to use Webber in this way, he just is not going to be useful to the team.  If the system O'Brien and Iverson are running cannot accommodate that feature, then Webber simply is not going to fit in with Philadelphia, and there really is no point to suggesting that he ever will.  

Anyone who watched the Kings play with Webber on the team, and before that the Wizards play with Webber on that team, could plainly see that Chris was an All Star in the SACRAMENTO system, but just an average power forward in the Wizard's system.  Which player do the Sixers really want?

As for Kobe, there simply is no room for another all star quality player to saddle up next to him. Kobe won't defer to anyone else, so the Lakers can only get complementary players, as any emerging star player would hardly be interested in coming to the Lakers to just pick up Kobe's gym shorts.

[rickortreat]

I agree with your ideas re Iverson and Webber, but IMO, that is the coach's job and as you know, I believe the coach isn't doing his job correctly.

I also agree that Kobme and Iverson are not the team players that the stars in the past were.  A player who's shooting 42% isn't doing his team any favors by hogging the ball.  If they think they are they are stupid.

Chances are, their shooting percentage would go up IF they wouldn't try to do everything.  Basketball is a team game, and the more you spread the ball around, the harder it is to defend an individual player no matter how dominant he is.

In Philadelphia, Webber and Iverson take the most shots, but shoot the lowest percentages.  Korver, Igoudala and Dalembert all shoot better.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the three young players should shoot more.  Apparently this simple fact is over Jim O'brien's head!

It may also be over Kobe and Iverson's head.  Both of them force low percentage shots rather than setting up their teamates.  I would even say they are bad players, simply because they don't make their teamates better.

But it is the coach's job to MAKE these players better, and I would sit them until they played the "RIGHT WAY"  because they'll never win the big games by themselves.  Maybe their ego's are too big to realize that.  Kobe is not the player Jordan was, for that reason.  He won his Championships because of Shaq.  AI got to the finals and lost because his team couldn't overcome Shaq and Kobe together.  By now they should know better, but old habits die hard, even if they're bad ones.  

Still, their teamates need to demand the ball.  It takes guts to do that, and confidence in your shot, but if you don't have that, you don't belong in the NBA anyway .

[JoMal]

Rick, there is another little issue about Webber that should be mentioned. His passing with the Kings was usually pinpoint and beautiful to watch. But you can only guess as how long it took to develop that kind of rapport and timing with teammates that played together for up to five years. Iverson doesn't even consider practice important enough to call his coach to tell him he is not coming to one.

Webber can't play his game in Philadelphia, and he knows it. His type of all-around game requires lots of gym time to perfect, with the players who will be moving the ball around. That won't be happening until training camp.

[westkoast]

Well lets take into mind how many times Iverson and Kobe end up with the ball after a horrible offensive outing that trip down.  Both Kobe and AI are constantly having to jack up last second shots.  Heck, if you took away half those last second toss ups I guarentee AI and Kobe would be shooting alot better pct wise.

Just like Rick said.....aggression is what some players are lacking.  Thats not something Kobe has anything to do with.  That is all Odom.  Maybe its the weed that makes him so laid back and passive    

[rickortreat]

Believe it or not, JoMal, Iverson said he was looking forward to PRACTICING with Webber.  That's right, practice.

Of course, there's a problem with that when your playing a few sets of back to back games thanks to a sadistic scheduler.   But the team will get some time off soon.

And yes, familiarity helps, but with guys like Igoudala, who will do whatever he's asked to do, and Korver who should be open hanging out at the 3 pt. line, and Dalembert, who is a big target in the post, it shouldn't be that hard for Webber to figure out where they'll be, and which hand he should throw the ball too.

[Reality]

The Flamers seem to have no one as a clearly defined Power Forward.  Grant can't play that much, Cook is almost like a SF with his 3 pt range.  Slava is kind of like a PF but more like a SF.

So...Odom has been getting quite a few boards and acting like a PF many times.
I think hes more naturally suited to SF.

Altho i like FWs that can do some of both.