Author Topic: Pacers-Indy suspension of game  (Read 5702 times)

Offline Derek Bodner

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2004, 12:39:05 PM »
Ziggy: He got 5  games, I believe.  Artest 30, JO and Jackson 20.

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2004, 01:44:20 PM »
I don't like the 5 game suspension of Wallace.  A five game suspension is comparable to WHAT?  Hitting a guy in the face how many times.  Wallace is bearing the NBA's "discipline" to the whole Piston organization.  There are BETTER ways to do this, IMO, because you need to single out the people responsible and tag THEM with the penalties -- not just add onto Big Ben's penalty.  Ben's penalty should consist of no more than 2 games -- and that, IMO, is severe.  Penalize the Detroit organization a different way than sitting Wallace.

30 game suspension for Artest -- 20 games for Jackson?  Wow!  Not saying it isn't justified but WOW it's definately making a statement.

Now, all we need is to make a similar statement to the Piston organization for not having adequate security and ALL the fans who threw things onto the court or at players or went onto the court.

Offline ziggy

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2004, 01:59:43 PM »
Quote
Ziggy: He got 5  games, I believe.  Artest 30, JO and Jackson 20.
Artest 30, JO and Jackson 20 each, and Big Ben Wallace 5 games.  Pistons organization got nothing?  I am sorry this is just what I expected, and it is a frigging JOKE.  Look at from the perspective of Pistons fans.  Lets throw some crap at our biggest rival, and we decimate their team.  This turned out to be gold for the Pistons.  This is such a politically correct pile of crap.  Ben Wallace shoves a guy and gets 5 games?  How absurd.  This is a 2 game suspension max.

Artest deserves the most, no doubt.  But after Artest went in the fans started attacking him, and NO SECURITY anywhere, what are Jackson and O'Neal supposed to do?  Sit back and watch as Artest gets pummelled by 10-12 Pistons fans, with security out in the concession area making sure no one lit up a smoke?

I haven't seen this 30/20/20/5 thing published anywhere.  Is this accurate?

 
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guest-koast

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2004, 02:39:58 PM »
Quote
Quote
Ziggy: He got 5  games, I believe.  Artest 30, JO and Jackson 20.
Artest 30, JO and Jackson 20 each, and Big Ben Wallace 5 games.  Pistons organization got nothing?  I am sorry this is just what I expected, and it is a frigging JOKE.  Look at from the perspective of Pistons fans.  Lets throw some crap at our biggest rival, and we decimate their team.  This turned out to be gold for the Pistons.  This is such a politically correct pile of crap.  Ben Wallace shoves a guy and gets 5 games?  How absurd.  This is a 2 game suspension max.

Artest deserves the most, no doubt.  But after Artest went in the fans started attacking him, and NO SECURITY anywhere, what are Jackson and O'Neal supposed to do?  Sit back and watch as Artest gets pummelled by 10-12 Pistons fans, with security out in the concession area making sure no one lit up a smoke?

I haven't seen this 30/20/20/5 thing published anywhere.  Is this accurate?
Seriously...if anything this could make fans try to provoke players even more.   Why not try to provoke another player on a team that is a big time rival?  You wont get punished.  Worse thing that can happen....is NOTHING!  Thats like when Shaq comes to Staples Center in Dec and some ignorant Laker fans yelling so much shit that he steps into the stands or yells something...BOOM extra harsh suspension because of this incident.  Then that puts a dent into Miami who those same ignorant fans want to see lose because Shaq left LA for there.  The drunken idiots will win again.

Why hasnt Detroit been fined?  That great they are up to playoff level security now.  That doesn't make up for the fact that there has been Pistons scrimage level security prior to this weekend.

Anyone find it funny that Artest asked for a month off to promote his album and he got suspended for 30 games?  That enough time to fit a mini-east coast tour into that hip hop album promoting tour.  

Randy - here's the final ver

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2004, 06:40:16 PM »
Artest - 30 games
Jackson and JO - 25 games each
Ben Wallace - 6 games
Anthony Johnson, Indy - 6 games

Several others earned 1 game suspensions and a fine:
Indy - Reggie Miller
Det - Elden Campbell
Det - Chauncey Billups
Det - Derrick Coleman

Man, I think that's pretty steep for Wallace and Johnson (as well as JO, I think the fan was the one that should have received a stiffer punishment for stepping out on the court -- he WENT onto the floor looking for trouble) -- as for choosing who else to bench, didn't the whole Pacer's bench empty except for Prince?  

Here's hoping that Yahoo creates an SL (suspension list) so I can replace JO on my fantasy league!  :alcohol:  

Offline westkoast

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2004, 06:42:01 PM »
Quote
Artest - 30 games
Jackson and JO - 25 games each
Ben Wallace - 6 games
Anthony Johnson, Indy - 6 games

Several others earned 1 game suspensions and a fine:
Indy - Reggie Miller
Det - Elden Campbell
Det - Chauncey Billups
Det - Derrick Coleman

Man, I think that's pretty steep for Wallace and Johnson (as well as JO, I think the fan was the one that should have received a stiffer punishment for stepping out on the court -- he WENT onto the floor looking for trouble) -- as for choosing who else to bench, didn't the whole Pacer's bench empty except for Prince?  

Here's hoping that Yahoo creates an SL (suspension list) so I can replace JO on my fantasy league!  :alcohol:
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3182714

Says that hes out for the rest of the season now!
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Offline spursfan101

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2004, 10:10:42 AM »
These players get MILLIONS of dollars to turn the other cheek.  
Paul

Offline westkoast

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2004, 10:14:06 AM »
Quote
These players get MILLIONS of dollars to turn the other cheek.
And fans pay 30-70 to be complete a-holes?  I agree that the players need to control their tempers a little bit more than the average person but fans also need to be adults.  I want these moron fans to be punished with the rest of the knuckleheads.  Those kinds of fans belong at a soccer game in Europe, not at a basketball game.

If Ben Wallace wouldn't have overracted then I don't believe the Detroit fans would have got so rowdy.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2004, 11:52:14 AM »
I find it incomprehensible that anyone feels that ANY of the suspensions are out-of-line.  I applaud the commissioner in doing the right thing (for a change).

First of all, when you start a brawl, your penalty should be in part determined by the result of your actions.  Ben Wallace deserves 5 games because of just how out-of-hand the brawl got.

Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal threw punches at fans.  30 and 25 are appropriate suspensions.  

Ron Artest should be gone for the season.  Artest was one of the original instigators - with the hard foul on Wallace in a game that was over.  He then decided to lay down on the scorer's table.  What did he THINK would happen?  Artest was provoked?  The *FANS* were provoked.

In NO case should Artest have gone into the stands.

An ESPN announcer asked last night, "Why is it that Ron Artest had the presence of mind to walk away from Ben Wallace, but then went after the fans?"  I didn't agree with the answer ESPN gave;  I think it was because Ben Wallace is a 6-9, conditioned athlete, whereas fans are much smaller and offer less challenge in a fight.  Artest may very well have walked away hurt from a fight with Wallace.

Artest didn't expect to meet resistance in the stands, and he got in over his head.

Had this been another player, I might have given a 50-game suspension, as this is the spark for the Wallace fight, AND for the fight in the stands.  (More on that in a bit.)

However, the most interesting take I heard on the fight, shamefully, was from hopefully-soon-to-be-former Polar Bear Quentin Richardson:

Quote
I have never seen a fight like that in a game since I was in high school.  Man, there are going to be some lawsuits. You don't think some of those fans aren't going to want some NBA money?

Yes;  when an NBA player is involved, it's about money.  Apparently, the fans threw stuff at Artest in an attempt to extort millions of dollars from NBA players.  Good job, there, Quentin.  I think we've figured out the problem, and you're part of it - especially with the CBA expiring this year.  Think the players are going to be wanting more FAN money?  Where do you think the dollars for those megabuck contracts comes from - NBA players?  It comes from FANS.

Am I excusing the behavior of fans?  To some extent, YES, I am.  A fan who throws a beverage or the like should be - and will be - ejected from the game and possibly arrested.  That's the penalty, and it's well known.  But if a professional athlete comes into the stands - AFTER TAUNTING THE FANS - and starts throwing punches, what would anyone expect to happen?  At that point, *ALL* the fans will be throwing stuff.  That's a given.

Had Artest not reacted, security would have taken care of the fan who threw the beverage.  Artest's over-reaction, however, set off an unbelievable chain of events.  

And this is just the latest sad chapter for Ron Artest.  The NBA suspended Artest in accordance with his own past, which is something that Ron Artest has certainly had his say in.  If you have a history of violent crime, while it usually can't be used in your trial (unless it demonstrates a predisposition for certain behavior), it can certainly be used at your sentencing.  Folks who feel the NBA came down too hard on Artest have been ignoring the fact that Artest has been a constant trouble-maker.  Had it been someone who isn't typically involved in violent behavior - say a Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett (pre-season episode with the rookie aside) - 50 games would have been an appropriate suspension.  However, given Artest's past behavior, I'd say he's fortunate to still be in the NBA.

It's time that NBA players start treating *FANS* a little bit better.  That's their bread and butter, and David Stern knows it.  You'd think the players wouldn't have forgotten it during a time of negotiations for the new CBA.  However, the Players Union shows that it is completely oblivious to how fans feel.  I'm actually hearing players talking about fines and suspensions for fans.  HELLO.  EARTH CALLING.  What do you think security does with people?  Just more player disconnect from their fan base.

In the past year, we've seen rape trials where the victim was tried, watched a team of professionals lose more basketball games at one Olympics than college kids did in their entire history, and now watched players attack fans.  Think this is going to get brought up at the CBA negotiations?  I know *I* would bring it up if I were David Stern.

The fans aren't the problem;  the players are.

 
Joe

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2004, 12:32:37 PM »
Joe,

I don't disagree about the suspensions with the exception of Ben Wallace.  I just don't see how you penalize the guy because he was the initial (or in this case, the second) domino in the chain of events that took place.

However, I AM surprised about your comments about the fans.  There is ZERO excuse for a player to go into the stands -- I couldn't agree more.  But there is also ZERO excuse for fans throwing things at players and/or coming onto the court.  You CAN'T dismiss the fans in this case -- if you do, you are going to see this kind of activity increase, not diminish.  I said the same thing when Jerry Sloan got hit in the head a few years ago (I think it was a air horn can, if I remember right).  

I don't think you can excuse either the fans OR the players!

Offline Reality

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2004, 12:59:12 PM »
Quote
I don't think you can excuse either the fans OR the players!
Randy i never want to miss a chance to prop you when you get something right.
Like Haleys comet.

Artest should not have gone into the stands.  We all should agree on that.  However if the 1st person he attatcks (4 eyes) is not joined by all the rest of the fans (also player Jackson), with the one security man right there, albeit not on time to stop this initial one on one, nonetheless if everyone leaves it between 4 eyes and Artest and security, its over right then and there.  4 eyes gets a million if not more from Artest, Artest gets suspension (maybe even the same entire season) and its over.

Just as Artest is not justified in going into stands, fans are not justified in joining in the riot.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 01:25:19 PM by Reality »

Offline JoMal

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2004, 02:08:04 PM »
I totally disagree with Joe on this.

While Artest clearly got the suspension he deserved, as did the others involved (Wallace, IMHO got off practically scott free for creating the whole negative atmosphere on his home court - a clear path to what was to follow), to excuse the fans for what they did is total bu**shi*t!!

Fans DO NOT have the right to threaten the players on opposing teams. What does it matter how much money the players make, none of them make enough to accept having objects thrown at them and their safety compromised by 15,000 emotionally charged fans, and to suggest they do or that fans pay their way into arenas so they have some entitlement to abuse others is so wrong as to defy description.

Security, at best, was outnumbered. If just a few hundred of the fans at a sporting event chose to attack the players of an opposing team, there just can't be enough security to hold them back.  You might suggest that the beer thrower who escalated the confrontation between the Indiana Pacers players and the Detroit fans would have been caught and removed by the security, but there was no certainty in that. Artest so overreacted to it and moved so quickly, we will never know for sure. But once fans start to throw objects, especially objects meant to injure, what do we end up with? Banishment for life for these fans just means someone else who likely will feel the same way as the first fan the first time something goes against the home team takes his place.

The best solution I have heard yet is punishment to the organization. Forfeit the next game, certainly, but fining the Detroit organization has to be part of the deal.

I totally agree that the Indiana Pacers deserve the punishments handed out, as they further excited the fans into subsequent violent actions, but to allow the real culprits off the hook - the Detroit Piston fans - rankles the hell out of me. So punish the one thing that will hurt them the most. The team they root for.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Joe Vancil

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2004, 03:31:40 PM »
I feel most fans understand that they are not allowed on the court, and that they aren't allowed to throw things.  That's what we have security at the games for.

However, FANS ARE NOT A PART OF THE GAME, and if the NBA itself tries to go after them, it will ultimately harm the NBA.  Fans are governed by the laws of the land, as well as the rules and regulations of the various states, counties, and in some cases, arenas.  I'm not saying don't punish the fans who violated these policies.  What I am saying is don't try to blame the fans for this incident.

At every action in a hostile situation comes a "choice point."  It is unfeasible to believe that you can control upward of 10,000 of those.  It *IS* feasible to believe that you can control 24.

Had Artest walked away from the fight, over toward his bench (which is where *I* would walk, were I him), Wallace would have been tossed, Artest might have been whistled for a flagrant foul, and that would be the end of it.  How many people here - or anywhere else - would decide to go lie down on the scorer's table?  It was intentionally meant to encite further problems.  

Then a single beverage got tossed.  At this point, it's a single fan.  You allow security to do its job, and let them toss the fan.  You DON'T go charging into the stands.  But Artest, in typical fashion, again made the wrong choice.  Now you've got a riot.

We need to write "Bear" on this.  I'd love to hear his insider take on how the Pacer organization is responding to this.

 
Joe

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2004, 04:09:28 PM »
Quote


We need to write "Bear" on this.  I'd love to hear his insider take on how the Pacer organization is responding to this.
Bear did send a message to the Group about this, his message is as follows:

Quote
"What a Disgrace!!!"

This isn't the proudest moment for the Pacer organization or the NBA. In
professional sports there is an invisible wall that separates the
playing area from the fan area. The Pacer players violated that wall.
They should be punished to the fullest extension of the league's
authority.
Let the enforcement of the fan conduct be left to the Piston
organization and their security. (or lack thereof) Right now I'm not
proud to be a Pacer fan.

bear

I agree that the law has to deal with the fans involved in this fiasco, but I also think security could not have done much to prevent this from happening. They could have stood between Artest and the seats, but it looks like they were involved with keeping Wallace away from Artest.

Once fans started to throw things at the players, do you really think it would have mattered if Artest had been elsewhere? He was easier to hit with something on the scorer's table, that's true, but I cannot fault Artest for being a target, for crying out loud!! He could have been hit near the bench or out in the middle of the court. The point is, he shouldn't have been worried about getting hit at all. His reaction deserved the exact punishment he metted, but an equally severe consequence is due the Detriot fans over this. Something that will invoke a true remorse, not a celebration in gutting their main rival.

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Pacers-Indy suspension of game
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2004, 04:26:53 PM »
And do you think that the Pistons organization is going to do the right thing?  (persecute their fans?)  They have already excused themselves AND their fans from any and all error in this fiasco.  

The problem for the NBA is:  "what do you do when the organization DOESN'T do the right thing?"  And right now, Detroit isn't doing anything but try and push all the blame on the Pacers -- and they NEED to own up to some of it!