stats website

[Reality]

zig,
what site shows pitcher vs batter lifetime stats?
 
Man am i bitter over Grady Garners decision to try to milk another out from Roger Clemons vs Pujols!  Score 2-1 man on 3rd.  2 outs.  No one on 1st!  zig you talk about LaRussa blowing it by pitching to Beltran.  Pen of Wheeler, Ozwalt and Lidge.  What are the stats of these three vs Pujols Rolen and Edmonds?

Lidge doesnt appear at all after going 8 innings and 4 games without a Cardinal run.  Ditto Wheeler after doing the same in 7 innings and 4 games.  Dipstick Garner.

Earlier.  Top 2nd 1 out.  Kent on 2nd.  Vizcaino rips a fly towoards left center.  Instead of tagging up, Kent saunters down between 2nd and 3rd and puts his head up his arse.  Edmonds makes the catch.  Oh what a surprise to a veteran player, seeing Jim Edmonds make a tough catch.  Edmonds falls down pointing towards the wall to make the catch.  Kent taggin would put him at least on 3rd base and possibly (probably?) scoring.  Tight defensive game its garbage like this that makes the difference.  If Edmonds would not have caught the fly Kent you score anyways.  So tag up!

How 'bout that Beltran walk-steal-tag-score. :up:   Womack did some motoring of his own for the Cards.

[Wolverine]

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6619/

sports.yahoo.com/mlb has all pitcher vs. batter stats on the player's main page.  Pujols was 2 for 9 with 4 walks and 1 K going into the game against Clemens.  Prior to his at-bat, I was saying you have to walk him.  He's as hot as anyone right now, and Clemens had become too predictable.  Fastball, fastball, fastball.  In his first game in Houston, he threw a lot of splitters and sliders.  He altered his strategy this time around, throwing fastball after fastball, but eventually that will catch up to him.

By the way, how many other hitters keep that inside pitch fair?  Unbelievable.  He's the Machine.

[Guest_Randy]

You DO have to give the Cardinals their due -- they played the game INCREDIBLY well last night (although you do have to give props to the Astros as well).  The Cards played not only great defense but executed perfectly down the stretch -- two bunts that were executed about as well as I have ever seen them scoring runners.  It was a GREAT game!

It's been a long time since I have seen as good a DEFENSIVE series as this turned about to be -- there were a ton of GREAT spectacular defensive plays, definately worth watching -- but I can't WAIT for basketball to start, baseball is WAYYYY to slow!

[ziggy]

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6619/

sports.yahoo.com/mlb has all pitcher vs. batter stats on the player's main page.  Pujols was 2 for 9 with 4 walks and 1 K going into the game against Clemens.  Prior to his at-bat, I was saying you have to walk him.  He's as hot as anyone right now, and Clemens had become too predictable.  Fastball, fastball, fastball.  In his first game in Houston, he threw a lot of splitters and sliders.  He altered his strategy this time around, throwing fastball after fastball, but eventually that will catch up to him.

By the way, how many other hitters keep that inside pitch fair?  Unbelievable.  He's the Machine.

Congrats Caleb!!!  
This should be one heck of a world series.  It has been frustrating, as I get to see maybe 4-5 innings of each game at the most.  When I finally got home yesterday, it was in the 6th, when Clemens started getting hit hard.  Didn't see Suppan pitch at all.

I agree, that I probably would have walked Pujols just because he is so good, but the problem is you then have to pitch to Rolen and then Edmonds, and you have put another runner on base.  Steve Lyons made teh same point of how Clemens went fastball, fastball, fastball, instead of therowing in some curves and splitters.  Clemens has a wicked splitter, I would much rather throw that to "Murderers Row".

I also have to give some serious props to Edgar Renteria.  Lays down 2 perfect bunts, and how about that play on defense where the ball went of Tavares's glove and Edgar still made the play at first.  Wow, that was tremendous.

[Reality]

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6619/

sports.yahoo.com/mlb has all pitcher vs. batter stats on the player's main page.  Pujols was 2 for 9 with 4 walks and 1 K going into the game against Clemens.  Prior to his at-bat, I was saying you have to walk him.  He's as hot as anyone right now, and Clemens had become too predictable.  Fastball, fastball, fastball.  In his first game in Houston, he threw a lot of splitters and sliders.  He altered his strategy this time around, throwing fastball after fastball, but eventually that will catch up to him.

Congrats Caleb!!!  

I agree, that I probably would have walked Pujols just because he is so good, but the problem is you then have to pitch to Rolen and then Edmonds, and you have put another runner on base.

Thanks for the site Wolf.  Superb, easy to use.
Concur with you both and the talking head that Clemons was using too many fastballs.  Moot point tho as he got em 5.2 innings with only one run.  Prop Clemons severely and bring in the 0.00 guys.

zig
so you have to face Rolen or Edmonds.  So what?  Two outs.
They are 0-11 vs Lidge and Wheeler.
Edmonds 0-5 vs Lidge.
Plus it sets up the force at second or at any bag if you load.
Much better to face them then Pujols.  Esp by bringing in Lidge.

Hou got a Grady Larussa game earlier and STL got a Grady Garner game last night.  Can't help but wonder if Beltran bolts Hou when he would have stayed if they made the WS.  Won the WS.  I dont know im just speculating but that could be how huge Gradys decision was.

Nonetheless indeed what a catch by Edmons.  Great squeeze play by STL.

 

[ziggy]

[zig
so you have to face Rolen or Edmonds.  So what?  Two outs.
They are 0-11 vs Lidge and Wheeler.
Edmonds 0-5 vs Lidge.
Plus it sets up the force at second or at any bag if you load.
Much better to face them then Pujols.  Esp by bringing in Lidge.
 

Of course neither Lidge or Wheeler were in the game, and Lidge had already pitched 3 innings on Wednesday, 1 on Monday, 2 on Sunday, and 2 on Saturday.
Clemens was in the game, and the first guy out of the pen was going to be Oswalt.  I think in a situation where you are ahead and it is only the 6th inning, no way you bring in Lidge.  If you use him there, then no way, after all he has pitched, that he can go 2 to 3 innings.  You have to save him for the 8th and 9th.

As far as Rolen, you walk Pujols and what happens?  He hits one just like he did.  Rolen hit .314 with 34 HR and 124 RBI while missing 20 games.  Edmonds hit .301 with 42 and 111.  Walking Pujols to set up a DP or a force out can sometimes make sense, but I don't believe you should walk one player just to set up a DP.  You intentionally walk a player because you prefer to pitch to another player, and that was the mistake LaRussa made in walking Berkman with 2 strikes to pitch to Kent.  You don't want to pitch to Kent if you can pitch to Ensberg or Vizciano.  That was the choice he should have made.  Would you rather pitch to Berkman with 2 strikes or Kent?  Then it is Kent or Ensberg?
Same here, you gain almost nothing walking Pujols to pitch to an almost equally potent hitter in Rolen or Edmonds.

Consider this
For his career Rolen has hit 226 hr and has hit into 87 DP.  He is 2.5 times as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

For his career Edmonds has hit 302 hr and has hit into 86 DP.  He is 3.5 times as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

For his career Kent has hit 302 hr and has hit into 166 DP.  He is almost twice as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

What happened after pitching to Berkman?  Kent hit a HR
What happened after pitching to Pujols?  Rolen hit a HR
 

[Reality]

Of course neither Lidge or Wheeler were in the game, and Lidge had already pitched 3 innings on Wednesday, 1 on Monday, 2 on Sunday, and 2 on Saturday.
Clemens was in the game, and the first guy out of the pen was going to be Oswalt.  I think in a situation where you are ahead and it is only the 6th inning, no way you bring in Lidge.  If you use him there, then no way, after all he has pitched, that he can go 2 to 3 innings.  You have to save him for the 8th and 9th.

As far as Rolen, you walk Pujols and what happens?  He hits one just like he did.  Rolen hit .314 with 34 HR and 124 RBI while missing 20 games.  Edmonds hit .301 with 42 and 111.  Walking Pujols to set up a DP or a force out can sometimes make sense, but I don't believe you should walk one player just to set up a DP.  You intentionally walk a player because you prefer to pitch to another player, and that was the mistake LaRussa made in walking Berkman with 2 strikes to pitch to Kent.  You don't want to pitch to Kent if you can pitch to Ensberg or Vizciano.  That was the choice he should have made.  Would you rather pitch to Berkman with 2 strikes or Kent?  Then it is Kent or Ensberg?
Same here, you gain almost nothing walking Pujols to pitch to an almost equally potent hitter in Rolen or Edmonds.

Consider this
For his career Rolen has hit 226 hr and has hit into 87 DP.  He is 2.5 times as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

For his career Edmonds has hit 302 hr and has hit into 86 DP.  He is 3.5 times as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

For his career Kent has hit 302 hr and has hit into 166 DP.  He is almost twice as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

What happened after pitching to Berkman?  Kent hit a HR
What happened after pitching to Pujols?  Rolen hit a HR

So if in Game 6 Garner decides to save Clemons for 7, then why not save Lidge also?  Yet another Grady Garner blunder IMO.  

There were two outs.  Hou does not need a DP.
That stats you give all reg season anyways.  Pujols was by far the hottest Cardinal in the playoffs and this series.
I don't buy that Lidge and Wheeler were not good to go for Game 7."You save Lidge for the 8th or 9th."  Oh that sure worked out.  As a result they didn't even play.  zig i thought last week we were agreeing that in the playoffs facing elimination you bring in your best reliever whenever you need him.  Ala Schmoltz coming in when ATL was behind.

You walk Pujols and then pitch Lidge or Wheeler against Rolen (or Edmonds) and he goes yard?  I doubt it.
0-11 vs Lidge and Wheeler, including a bunch of those ABs in this series.
Walk Pujols, maybe Rolen also.  Either way pitch Lidge or Wheeler against Rolen or Edmonds.  If they go yard i tip my cap.

[ziggy]

Of course neither Lidge or Wheeler were in the game, and Lidge had already pitched 3 innings on Wednesday, 1 on Monday, 2 on Sunday, and 2 on Saturday.
Clemens was in the game, and the first guy out of the pen was going to be Oswalt.  I think in a situation where you are ahead and it is only the 6th inning, no way you bring in Lidge.  If you use him there, then no way, after all he has pitched, that he can go 2 to 3 innings.  You have to save him for the 8th and 9th.

As far as Rolen, you walk Pujols and what happens?  He hits one just like he did.  Rolen hit .314 with 34 HR and 124 RBI while missing 20 games.  Edmonds hit .301 with 42 and 111.  Walking Pujols to set up a DP or a force out can sometimes make sense, but I don't believe you should walk one player just to set up a DP.  You intentionally walk a player because you prefer to pitch to another player, and that was the mistake LaRussa made in walking Berkman with 2 strikes to pitch to Kent.  You don't want to pitch to Kent if you can pitch to Ensberg or Vizciano.  That was the choice he should have made.  Would you rather pitch to Berkman with 2 strikes or Kent?  Then it is Kent or Ensberg?
Same here, you gain almost nothing walking Pujols to pitch to an almost equally potent hitter in Rolen or Edmonds.

Consider this
For his career Rolen has hit 226 hr and has hit into 87 DP.  He is 2.5 times as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

For his career Edmonds has hit 302 hr and has hit into 86 DP.  He is 3.5 times as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

For his career Kent has hit 302 hr and has hit into 166 DP.  He is almost twice as likely to hit a HR than a DP.

What happened after pitching to Berkman?  Kent hit a HR
What happened after pitching to Pujols?  Rolen hit a HR

So if in Game 6 Garner decides to save Clemons for 7, then why not save Lidge also?  Yet another Grady Garner blunder IMO.  

There were two outs.  Hou does not need a DP.
That stats you give all reg season anyways.  Pujols was by far the hottest Cardinal in the playoffs and this series.
I don't buy that Lidge and Wheeler were not good to go for Game 7."You save Lidge for the 8th or 9th."  Oh that sure worked out.  As a result they didn't even play.  zig i thought last week we were agreeing that in the playoffs facing elimination you bring in your best reliever whenever you need him.  Ala Schmoltz coming in when ATL was behind.

You walk Pujols and then pitch Lidge or Wheeler against Rolen (or Edmonds) and he goes yard?  I doubt it.
0-11 vs Lidge and Wheeler, including a bunch of those ABs in this series.
Walk Pujols, maybe Rolen also.  Either way pitch Lidge or Wheeler against Rolen or Edmonds.  If they go yard i tip my cap.

And what do you do in the 8th or 9th when Lidge has already pitched and you need him then?  The game is on the line in the 8th and the 9th, it isn't in the 6th or the 7th, because the Astros still have 3 times at bat to change that.  You can't rely on Lidge in every situation, you have to make choices and in my mind you need him in there when the game is on the line, be that the 8th or the 9th, if you are ahead, tied or behind.  If you don't have confidence in Oswalt or Wheeler in the 6th, then how can you possibly have confidence in them in the 8th or the 9th with the game on the line?

BTW, I trust career stats more than who is hot right now.  Matsui went from being the best player in the universe in games 1, 2, and 3, to being merely mortal after that.  Just because he has been hot doesn't mean he will continue to be.

Also, I did understand your point about there being 2 outs and as such the DP was not in order.  My post talked about DP's, and I should have included setting up a force.  My point though was that should you intentionally walk someone, it should be because you like that match up better than the one you had.  You walk Pujols because you have a better match up with Rolen.   If there is no advantage in pitching to Rolen, then you make the situation worse, because now you put another runner on base, and that run matters.  (In the Kent situation in game 5 Berkman didn't matter, or if you walked Kent he didn't matter.  The only runner that mattered was Beltran, because it was the bottom of the inning, and the score was tied.)  In this case there was no disernable advantage in pitching to Rolen or Edmonds, and you have put another runner on base, and that runner matters.  I can't really fault Garner for not walking Pujols, or for not bring Lidge in.  I would have brought in Oswalt or Wheeler though, because in my mind Clemens was no longer effective, and the results to Pujols and Rolen show that.

[Reality]

Zig wrote:  "My point though was that should you intentionally walk someone, it should be because you like that match up better than the one you had.  You walk Pujols because you have a better match up with Rolen.   If there is no advantage in pitching to Rolen, then you make the situation worse, because now you put another runner on base, and that run matters.  (In the Kent situation in game 5 Berkman didn't matter, or if you walked Kent he didn't matter.  The only runner that mattered was Beltran, because it was the bottom of the inning, and the score was tied.)  In this case there was no disernable advantage in pitching to Rolen or Edmonds, and you have put another runner on base, and that runner matters.  I can't really fault Garner for not walking Pujols, or for not bring Lidge in.  I would have brought in Oswalt or Wheeler though, because in my mind Clemens was no longer effective, and the results to Pujols and Rolen show that.  >end zig.


"Wheeler or Lidge"  "Wheeler or Lidge."  "Wheeler or Lidge"

No discernable advantage?  Check the career and postseason stats of Wheeler and Lidge vs Rolen and Edmonds.  For that matter vs Pujols, altho i still walk Pujols.  Compare with Clemons, a near 90 pitch Clemons.  Very discernable advantage in using Wheeler or Lidge against Rolen or Edmonds vs a 90 pitch Clemons against Pujols.

Since I did trust Wheeler in the 6th, i would also trust him in the 8th and/or 9th.
But since Lidge had the best stats vs Edmonds, I would have no problem bringing in Lidge then and there bottom 6th 2 out.  Or Wheeler.  Either one.  Get out of the inning.  Let come what may in the 8th and 9th with Wheeler, Ozwalt or Lidge.

As it stands your two best relievers did not even play.

Points we agree on:  
1. Clemons was no longer the best option.  
1a. Wheeler was an option at the 6th juncture.

2.  You need to pitch with the choice of pitcher vs the choice of opponents batter who gives your team the best chance to get out of the inning.  In this case zig, bottom 6 with 2 out to me it was just the same as the game you mentioned.  With only 10 outs to go and a 2-1 lead, I only need 1.1 from Lidge, 1 from Wheeler, and 1 from Ozwalt.  Or any combo thereof.  Could the Cards have zapped any of them?  Yes but we are talking discernable advantage here when compared to spent Clemons.  At this jucture the 8th and 9th are pointless if you don't close out of the 6th.  That is what happened.