[B]basketball topic[/B]

[Lurker]

Kobe or Shaq.


Bash away all you want however the "dynamic duo" have been split up.  Will Batman (Shaq) still be top dog in terms of leading his team to more victories?  Or will Robin (Kobe) upstage his former partner and lead the Lakers to more victories than the Heat?

And the conference differential isn't as great a factor as many believe.  58 of 82 games (71%) will be against common opponents as they will each play every team twice.

[westkoast]

Shaq easily.  He plays in a joke division in a confrence that doesn't have the same amount of quality teams or big men.  The heat team for the most part has been together with the same coach longer than the new Lakers and Rudy T.

How is the confrence not a factor?  They (the heat) play Eastern Confrence  teams 2x as Western Confrence teams.  The heat get two more games against the Wizards, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, and other weaker teams.  While the Lakers see the Spurs, Kings, Rockets, and Timberwovles extra games.

[Lurker]

Shaq easily.  He plays in a joke division in a confrence that doesn't have the same amount of quality teams or big men.  The heat team for the most part has been together with the same coach longer than the new Lakers and Rudy T.

How is the confrence not a factor?  They (the heat) play Eastern Confrence  teams 2x as Western Confrence teams.  The heat get two more games against the Wizards, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, and other weaker teams.  While the Lakers see the Spurs, Kings, Rockets, and Timberwovles extra games.

Not necessarily.  As stated originally 58 games are identical for each team.  That is the majority of the schedule.  The additional games could be the Warriors, Clips, Sonics for the Lakers and Pistons, Pacers & Celtics (don't sleep on this team) for the Heat.

Also in the other thread Laker fans seem to believe their team is still a strong western conference team.  whereas many commentators have expressed doubt about the Heat's depth.  If the Lakers are truly a stronger team then the Heat then the conference differential becomes even less important.

[westkoast]

Shaq easily.  He plays in a joke division in a confrence that doesn't have the same amount of quality teams or big men.  The heat team for the most part has been together with the same coach longer than the new Lakers and Rudy T.

How is the confrence not a factor?  They (the heat) play Eastern Confrence  teams 2x as Western Confrence teams.  The heat get two more games against the Wizards, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, and other weaker teams.  While the Lakers see the Spurs, Kings, Rockets, and Timberwovles extra games.

Not necessarily.  As stated originally 58 games are identical for each team.  That is the majority of the schedule.  The additional games could be the Warriors, Clips, Sonics for the Lakers and Pistons, Pacers & Celtics (don't sleep on this team) for the Heat.

Also in the other thread Laker fans seem to believe their team is still a strong western conference team.  whereas many commentators have expressed doubt about the Heat's depth.  If the Lakers are truly a stronger team then the Heat then the conference differential becomes even less important.

LOL....dont put words in our mouth.  Maybe at Fan Home, not here.  Not a single one of us have even said anything remotely close to thinking the Lakers are still on top of the WC.  I believe we all feel the Lakers will grab the last spot in the West.  Dont mistake me being suprised at how the team looks in pre-season to them being on top of the West.  They arent even the best team in California.

Those remaining games include all those teams we play 2 extra times.  Spurs, Blazers, Kings, Clippers, GS, Timberwolves, Rockets (dont sleep on them), Mavs, and Denver.  More good teams than bad.

[Lurker]

Shaq easily.  He plays in a joke division in a confrence that doesn't have the same amount of quality teams or big men.  The heat team for the most part has been together with the same coach longer than the new Lakers and Rudy T.

How is the confrence not a factor?  They (the heat) play Eastern Confrence  teams 2x as Western Confrence teams.  The heat get two more games against the Wizards, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, and other weaker teams.  While the Lakers see the Spurs, Kings, Rockets, and Timberwovles extra games.

Not necessarily.  As stated originally 58 games are identical for each team.  That is the majority of the schedule.  The additional games could be the Warriors, Clips, Sonics for the Lakers and Pistons, Pacers & Celtics (don't sleep on this team) for the Heat.

Also in the other thread Laker fans seem to believe their team is still a strong western conference team.  whereas many commentators have expressed doubt about the Heat's depth.  If the Lakers are truly a stronger team then the Heat then the conference differential becomes even less important.

LOL....dont put words in our mouth.  Maybe at Fan Home, not here.  Not a single one of us have even said anything remotely close to thinking the Lakers are still on top of the WC.

Don't put words in my mouth either.  I didn't say "top of the western conference".  I said a strong team....unless some of you are willing to admit that the Lakers will struggle to make the #8 seed.  Then I will amend my comment.

[westkoast]

Shaq easily.  He plays in a joke division in a confrence that doesn't have the same amount of quality teams or big men.  The heat team for the most part has been together with the same coach longer than the new Lakers and Rudy T.

How is the confrence not a factor?  They (the heat) play Eastern Confrence  teams 2x as Western Confrence teams.  The heat get two more games against the Wizards, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, and other weaker teams.  While the Lakers see the Spurs, Kings, Rockets, and Timberwovles extra games.

Not necessarily.  As stated originally 58 games are identical for each team.  That is the majority of the schedule.  The additional games could be the Warriors, Clips, Sonics for the Lakers and Pistons, Pacers & Celtics (don't sleep on this team) for the Heat.

Also in the other thread Laker fans seem to believe their team is still a strong western conference team.  whereas many commentators have expressed doubt about the Heat's depth.  If the Lakers are truly a stronger team then the Heat then the conference differential becomes even less important.

LOL....dont put words in our mouth.  Maybe at Fan Home, not here.  Not a single one of us have even said anything remotely close to thinking the Lakers are still on top of the WC.

Don't put words in my mouth either.  I didn't say "top of the western conference".  I said a strong team....unless some of you are willing to admit that the Lakers will struggle to make the #8 seed.  Then I will amend my comment.

Uhh Randy, WoW, Myself I know for a fact all have said the Lakers will grab the last spot in the WC.  That was said the day after we all found out about Shaq leaving.

A strong western confrence team to me is the Kings, the Spurs, and the Timberwolves.  Not sure what your definition of a strong western confrence team is.  I certainly dont feel the Lakers, Nuggets, Jazz, or Blazers are what you would call strong teams.  More middle of the pack to me.

[Reality]

Watchout Lurker,

B-Rad is in the mall.
If you don't respond to something you never said in the 1st place.....

But I'm not taking "sides"  

Can we open this up to include teams other then Heat and Flamers?
Like which team will have the most + victories compared to last season.

Hou might be a candidate but the Midwest is going to be brutal.    
Wizards?  Utah?

Heat looks like the frontrunner for increase of victories.  Shraq is gonna score a bundle on the smaller centers.  Not Ben Wa tho.  :nod:  

[Guest_Randy]

Kobe or Shaq.


Bash away all you want however the "dynamic duo" have been split up.  Will Batman (Shaq) still be top dog in terms of leading his team to more victories?  Or will Robin (Kobe) upstage his former partner and lead the Lakers to more victories than the Heat?

And the conference differential isn't as great a factor as many believe.  58 of 82 games (71%) will be against common opponents as they will each play every team twice.

I can't even believe that you said that "conference differential isn't as great as many believe" -- now IF you just want to compare apples and apples -- by that I mean, the Heats record vs. LA's record against the SAME teams, I'm up for that -- but to say wins TOTAL is a John Kerry spin of the truth!  

Here is the talent pool for LA:
     Kobe
     Vlade
     Brian Grant
     Atkins
     Mihm
     George
     Rush
 

[Guest_Randy]

sorry, wasn't done

I can't even believe that you said that "conference differential isn't as great as many believe" -- now IF you just want to compare apples and apples -- by that I mean, the Heats record vs. LA's record against the SAME teams, I'm up for that -- but to say wins TOTAL is a John Kerry spin of the truth!

Here is the talent pool for LA:
Kobe
Odom
Vlade
Brian Grant
Atkins
Mihm
Butler
George
Rush
Medvendenko
Butler

Here is the talent pool for Miami:
Shaq
Wade
Eddie Jones
Wesley Person
Christian Laettner
Udonis Haslem
Keyon Dooling
Michael Doleac
Rasual Butler
ZhiZhi Wang

Take Shaq and Kobe off those teams and tell me which one is deeper?  Which one would have a better starting five.

The Lakers:  I would take Vlade (even at his age), Rush (same position as Kobe) and Odom -- solid role players would be Atkins, Walton, Mihm and Grant.

The Heat:  I would take Wade, Eddie Jones and perhaps Udonis Haslem (who I think has some real potential) -- solid role players are Wesley Person, Christian Laettner, Dooling and Doleac.  

You MIGHT give the Lakers a slight edge but it would be about as deadlocked, IMO, as the current unbiased polls for president.  

BOTH teams are going to be carried by their superstar -- I think Shaq wins a few more games than Kobe but I don't think it's a lot.  Kobe is going to be the reason LA wins anything this year -- just like TD is the reason the Spurs win anything!

[westkoast]

Watchout Lurker,

B-Rad is in the mall.
If you don't respond to something you never said in the 1st place.....

But I'm not taking "sides" 

Can we open this up to include teams other then Heat and Flamers?
Like which team will have the most + victories compared to last season.

Hou might be a candidate but the Midwest is going to be brutal.   
Wizards?  Utah?

Heat looks like the frontrunner for increase of victories.  Shraq is gonna score a bundle on the smaller centers.  Not Ben Wa tho.  :nod:

Hay everyone look....its my vertically challenged secret admirer.  :crazy:  

[JoMal]

The real question is who is going to start at center for LA. I'm thinking N'diaye over Rebraca. Jaric at point, I suppose, but they don't have any kind of true small forward to help out Brand.

I'm thinking LA doesn't make the playoffs this year.  

[Guest_Randy]

JoMal,

What are you making of Peja's poor shooting performance with CWebb in the game.  I realize it's one game but I'm trying to remember the last time that Peja shot 33% from the field when guarded by anyone but a marquee player.  I really think that the Kings either need to trade Peja or bring him off the bench when Webber goes down.  I think it's going to be a very long season for the Kings.

Also, the Clips now have Maggette and Kittles at SG -- either they are going to play one of them at SF or one of them at PG.  Neither is big enough to play SF -- Maggette is listed at 6'6" but I think he's taller than that but he isn't big enough to go against the tall SF's of the league:  Rashard Lewis, Marion, Shareef Abdul Rahim, Glen Robinson, etc.  Can they be thinking that one of these guys can play the point?  I actually heard someone mention that they are considering trying Kittles at the PG position -- I don't think that will pan out but it's a mystery that they traded for a SG when they needed a PG or SF.

[JoMal]

JoMal,

What are you making of Peja's poor shooting performance with CWebb in the game.  I realize it's one game but I'm trying to remember the last time that Peja shot 33% from the field when guarded by anyone but a marquee player.  I really think that the Kings either need to trade Peja or bring him off the bench when Webber goes down.  I think it's going to be a very long season for the Kings.

Also, the Clips now have Maggette and Kittles at SG -- either they are going to play one of them at SF or one of them at PG.  Neither is big enough to play SF -- Maggette is listed at 6'6" but I think he's taller than that but he isn't big enough to go against the tall SF's of the league:  Rashard Lewis, Marion, Shareef Abdul Rahim, Glen Robinson, etc.  Can they be thinking that one of these guys can play the point?  I actually heard someone mention that they are considering trying Kittles at the PG position -- I don't think that will pan out but it's a mystery that they traded for a SG when they needed a PG or SF.

Ah, a breathe of fresh, LA air that is not tainted by that other team down there.

The Clippers have Dallasitis. They acquire players without regard to where they might (or might not) fit in with the team. Since this is a big time pro league we are talking about, I would guess the Clippers are going to be exploited at the point guard and small forward positions until they bleed.

As for Peja, it is too early to tell if this is just an anomoly or a pattern. Without his friendly net of fellow Serbs to fall back on here in SacTown (Vlade and Hedo), he must feel pretty isolated.

I would say it is up to Adelman to fix this situation. Rick is in his final year of his contract and has been waiting for an extension offer to come, which he has publically come out and asked for. The Maloof's, for the first time, have put a kibbitz on Petrie regarding their plans for the coach - and Geoff is not hiding his dismay when asked about the future status of Adelman as the King's coach. Rick has coached the Kings for seven years now - an eternity in NBA terms. The feeling from media types here is that the owners are going to judge what Adelman does this year before offering the extension - or not.

So what can Rick do to make the extension an easier decision? It starts with how he meshes Peja and Webber, just like you observed. So far it does not bode well for him or the Kings. In addition, Adelman has really been taking the blame for letting Webber dictate his participation once he returned from his knee injury last year. He deserves that criticism, but now the exact same problem is back. Webber's knee is going to remain problematic as long as he plays. When it is solid, Chris is going to be great. But how often is Adelman going to have to sit him on the second side of back-to-backs? Or just sit him, period when his defense starts destroying the Kings in a game in mid-season.

If it were at all possible for Petrie to pull off this past summer, I do believe Webber would be playing for the Knicks this year. The rumor mill says he tried very hard to move Chris in the off-season, but could not get anything of worth in return.

[Guest_Randy]

That's a good assessment, JoMal and it must be tough when your team has the pieces and it's just not being connected well.

I do think the Kings made a couple of mistakes in the last couple of years:

1)  Not resigning Jimmy Jackson -- quit saying in papers what you feel he is worth, tell him what you feel he is worth and offer him what you can.  When you make assumptions you lose -- with the player as well as your club.  The Kings lost in that deal.

2)  Losing Vlade and then signing Greg Ostertag.  Okay, Ostertag can swat more balls -- the guy couldn't make a decent pass if his life depended on it and the Kings LOVE to pass the ball -- from 1 to 5 they have had very good passers.  Vlade was a HUGE part of this mindset.  This had EVERYTHING to do with the lockerroom schism -- something that Laker fans are VERY used to.  It's up to a COACH to deal with the issues and instead of dealing with the issue they tried to trade away the problem -- unfortunately, that speaks volumes to Peja and unless CWebb can be dealt, I don't think Peja has a longterm future in SacTown because of the way they have handled the situation -- and your right -- that blame falls on Adelman first.  Even in a limited capacity, the Kings are going to miss Vlade -- on the court, passing the ball and in the lockerroom.

3)  IMO, Adelman has deferred leadership, on and off the court, to Chris Webber.  The Kings run an AWESOME motion offense but Webber comes in and destroys that offense the moment he steps on the court?  Why?  Because he isn't a great passer?  No!  He is probably the best passing 4 in the league today.  It could be a lot of things -- none of which I know for sure, but what could be the best offense in the league is reduced to players standing around waiting for CWebb to do something with the ball.  This ALL rests on Adelmann.  Of course, it's tough to coach in the NBA today.  Webber is paid three times as much (okay, more than that) as his coach and the Maloofs want him happy -- so what is Adelmann to do?  Take CWebb on?  Make him unhappy?  Get himself in trouble with the Maloofs?  However, his reticence to take on the situation is now why he finds himself asking for a contract extension but not getting it.  Adelmann hasn't proven himself very well in player issues like this in the past -- and it's a shame because he is the PERFECT coach for SacTown.  However, I think that SacTown is going to be disappointed with the results of this years season for several reasons:  1) CWebb won't stay healthy; 2) Peja and CWebb are not going to play well together; 3) Ostertag was a mistake for the Kings system (who is going to guard Ostertag outside like they did Vlade?); and 4) the chemistry is going to suffer in the lockerroom -- even though I don't believe Peja is one to be unprofessional, the problems off the court are simply going to become apparent on the court.

[JoMal]

As is true for several other teams this coming season, the Kings are facing a huge question mark as to how they are going to fare. I really do not have a clue.

I know that the core group, when healthy, can dominate any opponent on their good nights. That has even been true when the opposing team is also playing well. But the problems the Kings seem to be unable to shake has been injuries, consistency (read - Webber), and post season toughness. Now, one of the strengths of the team has come into question - that locker room chemistry. If my memory serves, few teams (the Lakers of the recent past being one) can cope with factions popping up on the team. It is even more fragile on a "soft" team like the Kings.

Webber essentially threw down the gauntlet this summer. Peja chose to turn and run, but he soon found out he had nowhere to go. Vlade simply opted to sign elsewhere instead of taking any offer Petrie came up with. Miller is known to be unhappy with Chris also, though publically he has stayed quiet. As for Christie, Bibby, and Jackson, they weren't implied to be the problem by Webber, so aren't pouting.

Except for his knee limiting him, Webber is going to play like he always has and will be effective at times - and won't be at times. But Peja is the one to watch. If he continues allowing his feelings to intrude, he is going to look awful on the court, and that is where the Kings will be vulnerable. They simply can't compete with the other Western powers without Peja providing a deep threat for the team.