Author Topic: Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say  (Read 3276 times)

Offline spursfan101

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« on: September 20, 2004, 10:46:27 AM »
http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak20.html
 :huh:

Inside the Bush administration policymaking apparatus, there is strong feeling that U.S. troops must leave Iraq next year. This determination is not predicated on success in implanting Iraqi democracy and internal stability. Rather, the officials are saying: Ready or not, here we go.

This prospective policy is based on Iraq's national elections in late January, but not predicated on ending the insurgency or reaching a national political settlement. Getting out of Iraq would end the neoconservative dream of building democracy in the Arab world. The United States would be content having saved the world from Saddam Hussein's quest for weapons of mass destruction.

The reality of hard decisions ahead is obscured by blather on both sides in a presidential campaign. Six weeks before the election, Bush cannot be expected to admit even the possibility of a quick withdrawal. Sen. John Kerry's political aides, still languishing in fantastic speculation about European troops to the rescue, do not even ponder a quick exit. But Kerry supporters with foreign policy experience speculate that if elected, their candidate would take the same escape route.

Whether Bush or Kerry is elected, the president or president-elect will have to sit down immediately with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The military will tell the election winner there are insufficient U.S. forces in Iraq to wage effective war. That leaves three realistic options: Increase overall U.S. military strength to reinforce Iraq, stay with the present strength to continue the war, or get out.

Well-placed sources in the administration are confident Bush's decision will be to get out. They believe that is the recommendation of his national security team and would be the recommendation of second-term officials. An informed guess might have Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state, Paul Wolfowitz as defense secretary and Stephen Hadley as national security adviser. According to my sources, all would opt for a withdrawal.

Getting out now would not end expensive U.S. reconstruction of Iraq, and certainly would not stop the fighting. Without U.S. troops, the civil war cited as the worst-case outcome by the recently leaked National Intelligence Estimate would be a reality. It would then take a resolute president to stand aside while Iraqis battle it out.

The end product would be an imperfect Iraq, probably dominated by Shia Muslims seeking revenge over long oppression by the Sunni-controlled Baathist Party. The Kurds would remain in their current semi-autonomous state. Iraq would not be divided, reassuring neighboring countries -- especially Turkey -- that are apprehensive about ethnically divided nations.

This messy new Iraq is viewed by Bush officials as vastly preferable to Saddam's police state, threatening its neighbors and the West. In private, some officials believe the mistake was not in toppling Saddam but in staying there for nation building after the dictator was deposed.

Abandonment of building democracy in Iraq would be a terrible blow to the neoconservative dream. The Bush administration's drift from that idea is shown in restrained reaction to Russian President Vladimir Putin's seizure of power. While Bush officials would prefer a democratic Russia, they appreciate that Putin is determined to prevent his country from disintegrating as the Soviet Union did before it. A fragmented Russia, prey to terrorists, is not in the U.S. interest.

The Kerry campaign, realizing that its only hope is to attack Bush for his Iraq policy, is not equipped to make sober evaluations of Iraq. When I asked a Kerry political aide what his candidate would do in Iraq, he could do no better than repeat the old saw that help is on the way from European troops. Kerry's foreign policy advisers know there will be no release from that quarter.

In the Aug. 29 New York Times Magazine, columnist David Brooks wrote an article (''How to Reinvent the GOP'') that is regarded as a neo-con manifesto and not popular with other conservatives.

''We need to strengthen nation states,'' Brooks wrote, calling for ''a multilateral nation-building apparatus.'' To chastened Bush officials, that sounds like an invitation to repeat Iraq instead of making sure it never happens again.
 
Paul

Offline spursfan101

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2004, 10:57:18 AM »
Also heard on conservative friendly Clearchannel Radio  this morning that a massive Reserve troop callup is expected to happen in December AFTER the election.  I would think this is more likely than the story I posted above, who knows.
Paul

jn

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 11:04:50 AM »
Say what? Wolfowitz as Secretary of Defense?  Not a chance.  He is the driving ideological force behind the move to bring Democracy to Iraq.  If they really are giving up on that idea how could they possibly name it's main architect to run the Pentagon?  I highly doubt the military would want him, the Demo's would shred him in confirmation hearings.  

As for Putin, well, his strong arm tactics are not stopping terrorist attacks, will not stop terrorist attacks, and ultimately his pseudo Stalinist moves will stifle the will of Russia's best and brightest to fight the terrorists.  

Guest_Dromedarius

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 12:06:17 PM »
Kerry says he would commit more troops, and I believe Bush would have to as well. The instability is too great in the region as it stands now to not send more troops over. I can't picture the Bush campaign pulling out, although it is something I could see Kerry doing if the pressure abroad, something he seems to be very sensitive to, were great enough.

BTW, I can't stand all the whining by some National Guard troops about having to serve their country. Too many that I know want their school paid for, like the idea of getting drunk once a month and love the extra paycheck, but the cold hard truth is that they are paid for doing nothing for the instances when they actually are needed, which is now. We have a volunteer military and people really out to think about signing up if they are afraid of combat instead of getting greedy at the thought of a few extra dollars a month.

Offline westkoast

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 12:14:22 PM »
Quote
Kerry says he would commit more troops, and I believe Bush would have to as well. The instability is too great in the region as it stands now to not send more troops over. I can't picture the Bush campaign pulling out, although it is something I could see Kerry doing if the pressure abroad, something he seems to be very sensitive to, were great enough.

BTW, I can't stand all the whining by some National Guard troops about having to serve their country. Too many that I know want their school paid for, like the idea of getting drunk once a month and love the extra paycheck, but the cold hard truth is that they are paid for doing nothing for the instances when they actually are needed, which is now. We have a volunteer military and people really out to think about signing up if they are afraid of combat instead of getting greedy at the thought of a few extra dollars a month.
Im with ya here.  I dont know if we would exactly pull out.  Not only would we take the L, we would boost terrorist morale if they helped cause the US to run for the hills.  That being said, I don't care if we took the L.  We need to let them sort their own crap out.  We have plenty at home to worry about.  I really don't see Bush leaving Iraq so quickly.  He will want to finish what he started, which is why I also like Kerry as the next president.  He can pull the troops out.  He didn't start this war.  Different situation for Bush.

Im 100000% with you on this.  You dont want to go serve your country? Don't sign up.  Simple really.  Are people in this country really that dumb?  Uncle Sam isn't paying all that money cuz hes a nice uncle.  He's paying all that money to hold up to his side of the agreement.  The people who sign up should do the same.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 12:16:35 PM by westkoast »
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Offline spursfan101

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 12:27:48 PM »
I joined the Reserves out of high school and I WILLINGLY went to serve during Desert Storm 1. I remember being 19 and excited about going, and I also remember all the older people in my Reserve Unit who had been collecting a check for years and now were ticked that they had to leave. Couldn't understand that. Of course,  I was young back then and didn't have any commitments.

Now that I"m married and I have very young children, I can UNDERSTAND where they are coming from. Priorities do change. If I were in the military now, I wouldn't want to go either, but in the end, I signed up for it, so I would go.

With that being said, do I think that the argument that the Reserves are being stretched to their limit?  Absolutely.  I wonder how military recruitment is doing right about now.  

 
Paul

Guest_Dromedarius

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 12:36:46 PM »
I agree about commitments changing. When I was a kid I always wanted to do my time, and when the time came, I did. If someone were to ask me to re-enlist I'd tell them to take a flying leap. I'm married, looking to start a family, going to grad school, have a job, etc., etc. However, like you guys said in reply to my original comment, a commitment is a commitment. Truth is, most Guard troops aren't doing the really dangerous work (although some are), and the whiners of which I speak are actually pretty bored.

Basically, we're in this now, whether we like it or not, and we HAVE to make a stand. Backing out is NOT the answer. That will prove what Osama Bin Laden thought from the beginning: America has no stomach for bloodshed. We do NOT want to turn into the French. History has proved again and again you HAVE to make a stand.

jn

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 12:46:39 PM »
The flip side of your argument about the National Guard is that the Govt. is changing the rules on those who signed up.  For instance I was reading this morning about a Guard Member who is suing the Govt.  Apparently he, like many, signed up for one year with no further obligations.  Now the Govt has broken the contract and refuses to release him.  That goes along with others who are having their services extended.  

I understand your argument but I think the Govt breaking contracts is a lot bigger problem than the whining from some members.  


 

Offline SPURSX3

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 12:52:57 PM »
Quote
Say what? Wolfowitz as Secretary of Defense?  Not a chance.  He is the driving ideological force behind the move to bring Democracy to Iraq.  If they really are giving up on that idea how could they possibly name it's main architect to run the Pentagon?  I highly doubt the military would want him, the Demo's would shred him in confirmation hearings.  

As for Putin, well, his strong arm tactics are not stopping terrorist attacks, will not stop terrorist attacks, and ultimately his pseudo Stalinist moves will stifle the will of Russia's best and brightest to fight the terrorists.
just read an article saying that putin is gearing up for a "pre-emptive" strike against thier terrorists....hmmmmm,  wasnt he a critic of pres. bush's "pre-emptive strike tactic??  yeah, i figured russia wouldnt practice what it preached.  I did expect something from them sooner though considering the numbr of children and innocents killed in the downed planes and school invasion.  jn is right, there is now winning a war on terror, however from my point of view you cant bring your troops home and allow an enemy that wont stop to have time to rest and recruit.  I dont expect - and this is IF kerry were to be elected  - that he would put a stop to our war on terror, i see the us still operating in arab countries that they operate now in, troop count may go down some  - but in reality i dont see a big drop in the number of troops we have in those regions, we will still have ample forces there, troops will still be reported as dying. etc.  hell I wouldnt bee surprised to see a "pre-amptive strike against syria (number 1 options) or iran, to deter further insurgent movement in Iraq, we would give each country opportunity to police themselves (tongue in cheek) but i think there would be another excuse given to go in.  maybe it is a little consipiracy theoryish, but would any of you put it past either person going into the white house?  
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

jn

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 01:05:34 PM »
How could it be pre emptive at this point?  :huh:  

Offline SPURSX3

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2004, 01:31:10 PM »
Quote
How could it be pre emptive at this point?  :huh:
the wording says that it will be something big.  sure it could be seen as a retaliation for the attack on the schol and the downed planes, but saying that this is retaliation makes it seem like russai will kill a few people, drop a few and get out.  the pre-emptive wording makes it sound as if russia is going to pour everything it has into the region (like Iraq) and is not going to give any breatjing room once there.  sounds weird, I know, but the subtle wording on politcal jargon usually translates into very different things.  Putin may be hoping to finally live up to his promise of making russia a world super power again, somehow he thinks crushing the rebels would get rusia back to that point.
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline Ted

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2004, 01:33:31 PM »
Quote
How could it be pre emptive at this point?  :huh:
What ever it is, it's going to be nasty, if Russia practices anti-terrorism the way it used to.

Back when the Mujahadeen used guerrilla tactics/terrorism against the USSR, the Russians responded in a seriously scary manner. The terrorists better not thing the Russians are as squeamish as we are about shedding blood. Their wives, children, pets, relatives, business associates, neighbors . . . no one was safe.
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jn

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2004, 02:03:02 PM »
Well Ted that's pretty much what they have done in Chechnya and what has it got them? Massive loss of life and a wasteland filled with a hostile populice.  They won't be able to go back to the old way.  

Offline Ted

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2004, 04:54:15 PM »
Quote
Well Ted that's pretty much what they have done in Chechnya and what has it got them? Massive loss of life and a wasteland filled with a hostile populice.  They won't be able to go back to the old way.
It seems to me that the old way is exactly the way they're going.

Putin is in the middle of a colossal power grab, and when he gets all of the guns in his pocket, he's going to go off on Chechnya real bad. And if he finds out that some of the terrorists came from somewhere else, I won't be surprised to see him point those guns somewhere outside of his country. I wonder what the world will think of that?
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

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Guest_Dromedarius

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Quick exit from Iraq is likely, sources say
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2004, 05:33:39 PM »
You have to deal with rats (terrorists) harshly. The first thing the terrorists usually ask when they are captured is "Are you Israeli?" Why? Because the Israelis scare the hell out of them? Why? Because they don't play around. You can't give these guys hope. That's the reason the terrorists want Bush out of office. They know Kerry can be swayed, whereas Bush cannot. Like Bush or not, although he's not perfect, he's perfect for our present situation. We can't have a leader like Kerry, who in Zell Miller's words, is going to outsource our foreign policy to the UN and the French.

P.S. Joe, why do you consider Bush a thief? Don't tell me it's because of the 200o election...