Author Topic: On Swift Boats and Slow Brains  (Read 2749 times)

Offline spursfan101

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« on: August 23, 2004, 04:26:14 PM »

Andrew Ferguson misperceives a central tenet of the “War-wimp” argument in this piece.  It's not, as he describes it, that “only men with military experience are justified in ordering other military men into combat,” rather it’s that military men know more about war—and all the many things that can, and are likely to, go wrong when you start one than people like George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, I. Lewis Libby, William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, Christopher Hitchens, Condoleezza Rice, George Will, and of course Richard Perle, etc, who have never seen a shot fired in anger, and hence should be listened to with great care and respect for their views before undertaking so risky and fraught a mission as an unprovoked war in a place like Iraq.  

In this case, the people with the military experience did not think war was such a good idea—an idea that was buried in The Washington Post but known, nevertheless—and they were, of course, right.  The invasion has turned into disaster because of the duplicity and incompetence of its civilian planners.  The military did what it was supposed to do—kill people and secure territory.  It failed in doing what it should never have been asked to do, which is to build a new nation from scratch.  Those who profess to honor the military and thus mistreat it should be called to answer for it.

Still, once you get past his phony “On the One Handism,” Ferguson gets one thing quite right. I quote at length:

Yet in 2004, Republicans find themselves supporting a candidate, George W. Bush, with a slender and ambiguous military record against a man whose combat heroism has never (until now) been disputed.  Further--and here we'll let slip a thinly disguised secret--Republicans are supporting a candidate that relatively few of them find personally or politically appealing.  This is not the choice Republicans are supposed to be faced with.  The 1990s were far better.  In those days the Democrats did the proper thing, nominating a draft-dodger to run against George H.W. Bush, who was the youngest combat pilot in the Pacific theater in World War II, and then later, in 1996, against Bob Dole, who left a portion of his body on the beach at Anzio.

Republicans have no such luck this time, and so they scramble to reassure themselves that they nevertheless are doing the right thing, voting against a war hero.  The simplest way to do this is to convince themselves that the war hero isn't really a war hero.  If sufficient doubt about Kerry's record can be raised, we can vote for Bush without remorse.  But the calculations are transparently desperate.  Reading some of the anti-Kerry attacks over the last several weeks, you might conclude that this is the new conservative position: A veteran who volunteered for combat duty, spent four months under fire in Vietnam, and then exaggerated a bit so he could go home early is the inferior, morally and otherwise, of a man who had his father pull strings so he wouldn't have to go to Vietnam in the first place.

When you think about it, the very notion that this story is dominating the election, on the front pages of the newspapers and the Sunday gabfests could hardly be more idiotic.  In the first place, it doesn’t matter a whit whether thirty years ago, what “really happened”—which is of course, never knowable—matches Kerry’s version or those of his detractors.  If you vote for John Kerry you are going to get one kind of presidency, and if you vote for George W. Bush, you are going to get another kind.  They are quite different, and really, if you have half a brain, it shouldn’t be too hard to make up your mind.  

In the second place, as Ferguson points out, if you really do care about this kind of thing—and I can’t stop you—then all you really need to know is that Kerry volunteered to fight in Vietnam and then returned home to fight for his country to do the right thing by its veterans and stop asking them to die for an impossible cause.  Bush, on the other hand, supported the war, but used his daddy’s influence to stay out of the war, specifically requested not to be sent to Vietnam, and then wasted the government’s million dollar investment in his training by failing to show up for training and forfeiting his right to fly the planes in the unlikely event he would ever be asked to.  (Lucky for Bush, Nixon didn’t abuse the Nation Guard the way he and Cheney are.)  

We may never know whether Bush was a deserter during this time, before he secured his special, special treatment, but his actions sure look a little fishy.  Meanwhile, we are arguing about the guy who served, both in Vietnam and at home, risking his life in the first instance and his political future in the second.  The fact that such lunacy can decide an election in the world’s most powerful nation strikes me rather terrifying-- an indictment of the quality of our nation’s political discourse and particularly the mainstream’s media’s role in policing it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/
 
Paul

jn

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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2004, 04:34:39 PM »
Yes this was a good blog.

I've also been thinking about an old quote from Margaret Thatcher.  When she was asked to take a drug test like an opponent she responded she wasn't going to "Turn the election into a pissing match."   The questions about the extent of Kerry's injuries and make me think we are turning this into a "Bleeding Match."

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2004, 01:07:32 PM »
He said everything I was getting at, only much better and in more detail, in the other thread when I brought up the fact that Bush is one of the last people who should support any kind of bashing that has to do with serving in the armed forces.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2004, 01:07:56 PM by westkoast »
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2004, 01:09:51 AM »
Quote
In this case, the people with the military experience did not think war was such a good idea—an idea that was buried in The Washington Post but known, nevertheless—and they were, of course, right.
Excuse me, but this a completely specious argument.  It is not, nor has it ever been, the place for the military leaders to determine foreign policy objectives, nor to decide when we go to war and for what reasons.  That is and always has been the responsibility of civilian authorities.  That is why the Commander in Chief of our military forces is specifically stated in the constitution to be an elected civilian, the President, and the commander of the various State National Guards are the Governors.
One of the things that separated our nation from all others before it, was that the military did not have a seat at the governing table.  It is and always has been the responsiblity of the miltary to take direction and orders from civilian commanders.  It is the responsibility of military commanders to plan, administer, and execute the orders and directives of the Commander in Chief, and not to set policy, nor to determine which wars to fight or not to fight.  
If the actions of civilian commanders is such that foriegn policy objectives, and or military actions taken are not consistent with the wishes of the nation we have an electoral process to change civilian leadership.  We do not have an electoral process though to change military leadership, because execution of war is not a process that should be dictated by a mere plurality of the electorate.  What the Generals may or may not have thought about going to war is not relevant.  What the Commander in Chief, and the members of the Senate thought and decided regarding going to war is what matters as it is they who have the responsibility to declare it.

The notion though that the current administration did not consult or engage military leaders on the planning, and execution of the war is utter poppycock, with absolutely no supporting evidence.  I repeat that there is absolutely no supporting evidence for this assertion.  It is utter poppycock.  There may have been mistakes in the plan and mistakes in the execution, but to state that those who claim to honor the military, actually mistreat it because they do not allow the miltary to dictate foriegn policy is horribly misinformed.
The true definition of honoring the miltary and then mistreating it, is to support sending them to war, and then refusing to fund the operation as needed to assure victory, and to protect those who put their lives on the line.  That in fact is consistent with Kerry's previous actions after he returned from Vietnam, and his words today.  He will honor the military until it is no longer politically expedient at which point he will cut them loose.  He will call them, rapists and baby killers, and he will not vote to fund their on going operations.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 01:12:46 AM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline SPURSX3

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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2004, 08:23:50 AM »
Quote
Quote
In this case, the people with the military experience did not think war was such a good idea—an idea that was buried in The Washington Post but known, nevertheless—and they were, of course, right.
Excuse me, but this a completely specious argument.  It is not, nor has it ever been, the place for the military leaders to determine foreign policy objectives, nor to decide when we go to war and for what reasons.  That is and always has been the responsibility of civilian authorities.  That is why the Commander in Chief of our military forces is specifically stated in the constitution to be an elected civilian, the President, and the commander of the various State National Guards are the Governors.
One of the things that separated our nation from all others before it, was that the military did not have a seat at the governing table.  It is and always has been the responsiblity of the miltary to take direction and orders from civilian commanders.  It is the responsibility of military commanders to plan, administer, and execute the orders and directives of the Commander in Chief, and not to set policy, nor to determine which wars to fight or not to fight.  
If the actions of civilian commanders is such that foriegn policy objectives, and or military actions taken are not consistent with the wishes of the nation we have an electoral process to change civilian leadership.  We do not have an electoral process though to change military leadership, because execution of war is not a process that should be dictated by a mere plurality of the electorate.  What the Generals may or may not have thought about going to war is not relevant.  What the Commander in Chief, and the members of the Senate thought and decided regarding going to war is what matters as it is they who have the responsibility to declare it.

The notion though that the current administration did not consult or engage military leaders on the planning, and execution of the war is utter poppycock, with absolutely no supporting evidence.  I repeat that there is absolutely no supporting evidence for this assertion.  It is utter poppycock.  There may have been mistakes in the plan and mistakes in the execution, but to state that those who claim to honor the military, actually mistreat it because they do not allow the miltary to dictate foriegn policy is horribly misinformed.
The true definition of honoring the miltary and then mistreating it, is to support sending them to war, and then refusing to fund the operation as needed to assure victory, and to protect those who put their lives on the line.  That in fact is consistent with Kerry's previous actions after he returned from Vietnam, and his words today.  He will honor the military until it is no longer politically expedient at which point he will cut them loose.  He will call them, rapists and baby killers, and he will not vote to fund their on going operations.
Anyone know why Kerry wont open up his war records?  why he asked that of Bush - which bush openned - and yet Kerry wont even open his.  Or why now the Vietnam vets he served with are all liars, thieves, murderers and rapists??  He slandered them and basically spit on them as well when he came back from war, then he was one of them, now they are his enemy again...first he didnt threw his medals, then he didnt...wasnt there a self inflicted wound he got a purple heart for??  oh and the man of the people bragged about buying six cars at one time in detroit, especially his huge suburban, now it's not HIS suburban - it's his families...

WHO IS THIS GUY???

Is there any wonder why his campaign is faling apart?  and Kerry is the one who has the MAJORITY of the media on his side - seeing as how they are pro-demo for the most part, Bush has hardly campaigned for his own part for re-election, and yet he still has a good chance to win....

something is wrong with this country when politics turn into reality tv/comedy...
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2004, 08:31:13 AM »
SpursX3,

A LOT of what you are seeing of Kerry is the ticket trying to "change" his image!  Willy Billy went on talk shows -- the difference?  The guy had a personality, charm and charisma -- Kerry has NONE of those!  It's why he got Edwards on his ticket as well -- it's why Kerry feels the need to hug Edwards every time they are in public together.  Don't get me wrong, Bush doesn't have half the personality, charm and charisma that Clinton did but he has three times that of Kerry!

I expect Kerry to begin making guest appearances on Big Brother, Survivor, the Simpsons and South Park -- to name a few.

Offline SPURSX3

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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2004, 08:45:33 AM »
Quote
SpursX3,

A LOT of what you are seeing of Kerry is the ticket trying to "change" his image!  Willy Billy went on talk shows -- the difference?  The guy had a personality, charm and charisma -- Kerry has NONE of those!  It's why he got Edwards on his ticket as well -- it's why Kerry feels the need to hug Edwards every time they are in public together.  Don't get me wrong, Bush doesn't have half the personality, charm and charisma that Clinton did but he has three times that of Kerry!

I expect Kerry to begin making guest appearances on Big Brother, Survivor, the Simpsons and South Park -- to name a few.
I agree Randy.  I just it's incredibly flawed that Demo's jump on his boat - just because he is a Democrat - I am in the republican camp right now - BUT I WOULD SWITCH TO ANY CANDIDATE THAT LOOKED LIKE HE HAD HALF A BRAIN AND COULD DO THE JOB THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.  I would say Bush has a quarter of a brain, Kerry - well, Kerry has enough brain to breathe, tie his shoes and brush his teeth.....we really dont have much to choose from do we??
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 08:49:18 AM by SPURSX3 »
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline spursfan101

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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2004, 08:50:28 AM »
Quote
I expect Kerry to begin making guest appearances on Big Brother, Survivor, the Simpsons and South Park -- to name a few.

He was on COMEDY CENTRAL last night!!  
Paul

Offline SPURSX3

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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2004, 09:02:40 AM »
Quote
Quote
I expect Kerry to begin making guest appearances on Big Brother, Survivor, the Simpsons and South Park -- to name a few.

He was on COMEDY CENTRAL last night!!
so....politicians can "jump the shark"  too...?
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline spursfan101

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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2004, 10:12:34 AM »
It will be interesting when they debate. Think you can charge $$ and make a pay per view event out of it.  It's going to be Lincoln Douglas # 2!!

(Kerry made a great point on the Daily Show too. That GW has NEVER lost a debate. Not against Ann Richards (she severely underestimated him) and he did well against Al Gore. Man has that Texas "good ole boy" charm.
Paul

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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2004, 12:26:10 PM »
ziggy,


Where does he assert that the Military should have been making the decision or setting the policy?  The only assertion made is that the military had doubts about their mission.  No one is calling for the end of democracy and a new American Junta.  Yes some of the people who are now so sure of the wisdom of the military are being disingenuous, but not all of them are.  

You're half right on the consultation part.  They did consult the military.  Then when they didn't get the answer they wanted they fired the Army Chief of Staff for being both honest and right.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Eric_Shinseki

That's in addition of course, to the cavalier dismissal of Colin Powell and his "overwhelming force" doctrine by PerleRumoWitz as they strong armed their ivory tower views into play.   When Wolfowitz told Congress that "There is no history of ethnic conflict in Iraq"  this whole enterprise should have been stopped.  You can say what you want about Kerry and his vote on funding but the fact is that no amount of money is going to change the fact that the war was waged on faulty info and the aftermath was VERY poorly planned by the civilian architects.  Throwing money at a problem that's can only be solved by a change in people's behavior?  Hey buddy, when did you become a liberal?  B)

 

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2004, 11:40:17 PM »
Quote
Hey buddy, when did you become a liberal?
JN,
I looked everywhere for the "SHUDDER" similie, but they just didn't have one, so this will have to do.  No  :bash: way  :bash: could  :bash: I  :bash: ever :bash: be :bash:  a  :bash:  liberal.   :up:  
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Lurker

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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2004, 09:38:15 AM »
Quote
The true definition of honoring the miltary and then mistreating it, is to support sending them to war, and then refusing to fund the operation as needed to assure victory, and to protect those who put their lives on the line.  That in fact is consistent with Kerry's previous actions after he returned from Vietnam, and his words today.  He will honor the military until it is no longer politically expedient at which point he will cut them loose.  He will call them, rapists and baby killers, and he will not vote to fund their on going operations.
ziggy, I think you need to research this issue a little deeper.  Kerry's vote against the additional funding had nothing to do with supporting our troops or not.  It had EVERYTHING to do with whether a portion of the aid package was to be structured as loans.  Originally Congress approved a package that would have made a portion of the total aid sent to Iraq loans that would be repaid.  Bush let it be known that he would not sign such a bill so Congress made the entire aid package a gift from the American taxpayers to the people of Iraq.  THAT is what Kerry voted against.  Terrible flip flopping.....too bad more congressmen & senators didn't have the balls to stand up for their constituents over some foreign nation.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline ziggy

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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2004, 04:00:23 PM »
Quote
Quote
The true definition of honoring the miltary and then mistreating it, is to support sending them to war, and then refusing to fund the operation as needed to assure victory, and to protect those who put their lives on the line.  That in fact is consistent with Kerry's previous actions after he returned from Vietnam, and his words today.  He will honor the military until it is no longer politically expedient at which point he will cut them loose.  He will call them, rapists and baby killers, and he will not vote to fund their on going operations.
ziggy, I think you need to research this issue a little deeper.  Kerry's vote against the additional funding had nothing to do with supporting our troops or not.  It had EVERYTHING to do with whether a portion of the aid package was to be structured as loans.  Originally Congress approved a package that would have made a portion of the total aid sent to Iraq loans that would be repaid.  Bush let it be known that he would not sign such a bill so Congress made the entire aid package a gift from the American taxpayers to the people of Iraq.  THAT is what Kerry voted against.  Terrible flip flopping.....too bad more congressmen & senators didn't have the balls to stand up for their constituents over some foreign nation.
Lurker,
You are free to believe that Kerry's decision to vote against funding was an honorable one, but his reasons (or as they say nuance) do not change the result.  Kerry made the choice to vote against the funding for our troops, because he wasn't willing to allow all of the money earmarked to Iraq to be grants, instead of a "portion" being loans.  So how large a portion are we talking about?  I don't know the particulars, but lets assume it is 25%, or $22 billion.  We are talking about 1% of our entire budget.  I am a budgethawk, and that is a lot of money, so careful deliberation is in order.  Of course you can deliberate all you want, but at some point you have to make a choice, and live by that choice.
So has Kerry never voted for appropriations that increased our budget deficit?
Has Kerry never voted for budgets that included pork that approached or exceeded this amount?  If he has, and we all know he has, then he made a choice not to fund our troops, for much less than he has allowed to be wasted many many many times in the past.  This of course happened AFTER he voted to approve force in the first place.
So Kerry hasn't had the balls to stand up for the American taxpayer many many times previously, but he chose to take that stand when American troops were at risk.
Why did he choose to do so now?  For political expediancy.  So as I said before he has turned his back on American troops, on at least 2 occasions, and both times he did so in the name of political expediancy.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2004, 04:08:31 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
The true definition of honoring the miltary and then mistreating it, is to support sending them to war, and then refusing to fund the operation as needed to assure victory, and to protect those who put their lives on the line.  That in fact is consistent with Kerry's previous actions after he returned from Vietnam, and his words today.  He will honor the military until it is no longer politically expedient at which point he will cut them loose.  He will call them, rapists and baby killers, and he will not vote to fund their on going operations.
ziggy, I think you need to research this issue a little deeper.  Kerry's vote against the additional funding had nothing to do with supporting our troops or not.  It had EVERYTHING to do with whether a portion of the aid package was to be structured as loans.  Originally Congress approved a package that would have made a portion of the total aid sent to Iraq loans that would be repaid.  Bush let it be known that he would not sign such a bill so Congress made the entire aid package a gift from the American taxpayers to the people of Iraq.  THAT is what Kerry voted against.  Terrible flip flopping.....too bad more congressmen & senators didn't have the balls to stand up for their constituents over some foreign nation.
Lurker,
You are free to believe that Kerry's decision to vote against funding was an honorable one, but his reasons (or as they say nuance) do not change the result.  Kerry made the choice to vote against the funding for our troops, because he wasn't willing to allow all of the money earmarked to Iraq to be grants, instead of a "portion" being loans.  So how large a portion are we talking about?  I don't know the particulars, but lets assume it is 25%, or $22 billion.  We are talking about 1% of our entire budget.  I am a budgethawk, and that is a lot of money, so careful deliberation is in order.  Of course you can deliberate all you want, but at some point you have to make a choice, and live by that choice.
So has Kerry never voted for appropriations that increased our budget deficit?
Has Kerry never voted for budgets that included pork that approached or exceeded this amount?  If he has, and we all know he has, then he made a choice not to fund our troops, for much less than he has allowed to be wasted many many many times in the past.  This of course happened AFTER he voted to approve force in the first place.
So Kerry hasn't had the balls to stand up for the American taxpayer many many times previously, but he chose to take that stand when American troops were at risk.
Why did he choose to do so now?  For political expediancy.  So as I said before he has turned his back on American troops, on at least 2 occasions, and both times he did so in the name of political expediancy.
Kerry's record in the Senate is a joke -- it's the reason why he refuses to talk about it!  Of course, that's really not an issue -- just because the guy has NEVER put out a piece of legislation EVER and he has NEVER developed a plan for ANYTHING -- no biggie -- we are just talking about running our country, right?