Author Topic: Administration wages war on pornography  (Read 2482 times)

Offline spursfan101

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Administration wages war on pornography
« on: April 07, 2004, 08:26:20 AM »
Kinda long, but a must read...sniff...sniff... :unsure: ;)

WASHINGTON - Lam Nguyen's job is to sit for hours in a chilly, quiet room devoid of any color but gray and look at pornography. This job, which Nguyen does earnestly from 9 to 5, surrounded by a half-dozen other "computer forensic specialists" like him, has become the focal point of the Justice Department's operation to rid the world of porn.

In this field office in Washington, 32 prosecutors, investigators and a handful of FBI agents are spending millions of dollars to bring anti-obscenity cases to courthouses across the country for the first time in 10 years. Nothing is off limits, they warn, even soft-core cable programs such as HBO's long-running Real Sex or the adult movies widely offered in guestrooms of major hotel chains.

Department officials say they will send "ripples" through an industry that has proliferated on the Internet and grown into an estimated $10 billion-a-year colossus profiting Fortune 500 corporations such as Comcast, which offers hard-core movies on a pay-per-view channel.

The Justice Department recently hired Bruce Taylor, who was instrumental in a handful of convictions obtained over the past year and unsuccessfully represented the state in a 1981 case, Larry Flynt vs. Ohio.

Flynt, who recently opened a Hustler nightclub in Baltimore, says everyone in the business is wary, making sure their taxes are paid and the "talent" is over 18. He says he's ready for a rematch, especially with Taylor.

"Everyone's concerned," Flynt said in an interview. "We deal in plain old vanilla sex. Nothing really outrageous. But who knows, they may want a big target like myself."

A recent episode of Showtime's Family Business, a reality show about Adam Glasser, an adult film director and entrepreneur in California, had him worrying about shipping his material to states more apt to prosecute. It also featured him organizing a pornographic Internet telethon to raise money for targets of prosecution.

Drew Oosterbaan, chief of the division in charge of obscenity prosecutions at the Justice Department, says officials are trying to send a message and halt an industry they see as growing increasingly "lawless."

"We want to do everything we can to deter this conduct" by producers and consumers, Oosterbaan said. "Nothing is off the table as far as content."

Money and friends

It is unclear, though, just how the American public and major corporations that make money from pornography will accept the perspective of the Justice Department and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Any move against mainstream pornography could affect large telephone companies offering broadband Internet service or the dozens of national credit card companies providing payment services to pornographic Web sites.

Cable television, meanwhile, which has found late-night lineups with "adult programming" highly profitable, is unlikely to budge, and such companies have powerful friends.

Brian Roberts, the CEO of Comcast, which offers "hard-core" porn on the Hot Network channel (at $11.99 per film in Baltimore), was co-chair of Philadelphia 2000, the host committee that brought the Republican National Convention to Philadelphia. In February, the Bush campaign honored Comcast President Stephen Burke with "Ranger" status, for agreeing to raise at least $200,000 for the president's re-election effort. Comcast's executive vice president, David Cohen, has close ties to Gov. Edward G. Rendell of Pennsylvania, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

Tim Fitzpatrick, the spokesman for Comcast at its corporate headquarters in Philadelphia, declined to comment on the cable network's adult programming. But officials at the National Cable and Telecommunications Association, which Roberts used to chair, said adult programming is legal, relies on subscription services for access and has been upheld by the courts for years.

"Good luck turning back that clock," said Paul Rodriguez, a spokesman for the association.

Ashcroft vs. consent

In a speech in 2002, Ashcroft made it clear that the Justice Department intends to try. He said pornography "invades our homes persistently though the mail, phone, VCR, cable TV and the Internet," and has "strewn its victims from coast to coast."

Given the millions of dollars Americans are spending each month on adult cable television, Internet sites and magazines and videos, many may see themselves not as victims but as consumers, with an expectation of rights, choices and privacy.

Ashcroft, a religious man who does not drink alcohol or caffeine, smoke, gamble or dance, and has fought unrelenting criticism that he has trod roughshod on civil liberties in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, is taking on the porn industry at a time when many experts say Americans are wary about government intrusion into their lives.

The Bush administration is eager to shore up its conservative base with this issue. Ashcroft held private meetings with conservative groups a year and a half ago to assure them that anti-porn efforts are a priority.

But administration critics and First Amendment rights attorneys warn that the initiative could smack of Big Brother, and that targeting such a broad range of readily available materials could backfire.

"They are miscalculating the pulse of the community," said attorney Paul Cambria, who has gone head to head with Taylor in cases dating to the 1970s.

"I think a lot of adults would say this is not what they had in mind, spending millions of dollars and the time of the courts and FBI agents and postal inspectors and prosecutors investigating what consenting adults are doing and watching."

The law itself rests on the landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision in Miller vs. California, which held that something is "obscene" only if an average person applying contemporary community standards finds it patently offensive. But until now, it hasn't been prosecuted at the federal level for more than 10 years.

Since the last time he faced Taylor, Flynt's empire has grown into a multimillion-dollar corporation with a large, almost conservative-looking headquarters in California, where he and executives in dark suits oversee the company's dozens of men's clubs, sex stores and more than 30 magazines.

"He's basically crusaded against everything I've fought for for the past 30 years," Flynt said. "This is for consenting adults. They have the right to view what they want to in the privacy of their own home. And even if they don't enjoy these materials, they still don't want to be looking over their neighbors' shoulders."

Cases and results

Taylor, who has been involved in the prosecution of more than 700 pornography cases since the 1970s, including at the Justice Department in the late 1980s and early '90s, declined to be interviewed. But he did talk to reporters for the PBS program Frontline in 2001, when he was president of the National Law Center for Children and Families, an anti-porn group.

"Just about everything on the Internet and almost everything in the video stores and everything in the adult bookstores is still prosecutable illegal obscenity," he said.

"Some of the cable versions of porno movies are prosecutable. Once it becomes obvious that this really is a federal felony instead of just a form of entertainment or investment, then legitimate companies, to stay legitimate, are going to have to distance themselves from it."

The Justice Department pursued obscenity cases vigorously in the 1970s and '80s, prosecuting not necessarily the worst offenders in terms of extreme material, but those it viewed as most responsible for pornography's proliferation.

Oosterbaan said the department is employing much the same strategy this time, targeting not only some of the most egregious hard-core porn but also more conventional material, in an effort "to be as effective as possible."

"I can't possibly put it all away," he said. "Results are what we want."

The strategy in the 1980s resulted in a lot of extreme pornography - dealing in urination, violence or bestiality - going underground. Today, with the Internet, international producers and a substantial market, industry officials say there is no underground.

Obscenity cases came to a standstill under Janet Reno, President Bill Clinton's attorney general, who focused on child pornography, which is considered child abuse and comes under different criminal statutes. The ensuing years saw an explosion of porn, so much so that critics say that Americans' tolerance for sexually explicit material rivals that of Europeans.

That tolerance could prove to be the obscenity division's biggest obstacle. Americans are used to seeing sex, experts say, in the movies, in their e-mail inboxes and on popular cable shows such as HBO's Sex and the City. There is no real gauge of just how obscene a jury will find pornographic material.

The majority of defendants indicted in federal courts over the past year have taken plea agreements when faced with the weight and resources of the Justice Department. More than 50 other federal investigations are under way.

In 2001, though, one interesting case emerged from St. Charles County, Mo., the heart of Ashcroft's conservative Missouri base. First Amendment lawyer Cambria defended a video store there against state charges that it was renting two obscene videotapes that depicted group sex, anal sex and sex with objects.

Cambria won, convincing a jury of 12 women, all between the ages of 40 and 60, that the tapes had educational value and helped reduce inhibitions. They reached the verdict in less than three hours.

The department's most closely watched case involves "extreme" porn producer Rob Zicari and his North Hollywood company Extreme Associates. The prolific Zicari is charged with selling five allegedly obscene videotapes, which he now markets as the "Federal Five," that depict simulated rapes and murder.

Almost reveling in the charges, Zicari's Web site says, "The most controversial company in porn today! Guess what? Controversy ... sells!"

The case hangs on a strategic move by the Justice Department that could make or break hundreds of future cases. Instead of bringing charges in Hollywood, where Zicari easily defeated a local obscenity ordinance recently in a jury trial, department officials ordered his tapes from Pittsburgh, Pa., and charged him there, hoping for a jury pool less porn-friendly.

Industry lawyers and top executives contend that the courts should rule that because the tapes were ordered on the Internet, the "community standard" demanded by the law should be the standard of the whole community of the World Wide Web.

The Internet is filled with ample evidence of even more hard-core or offensive material from abroad, they say, and someone in Pittsburgh should not be able to determine what someone in Hollywood can order.

Either way, Nguyen, father of a 2-year-old girl, and his co-workers spend their days scouring the Internet for the most obscene material, following leads sent in by citizens and tracking pornographers operating under different names. The job wears on them all, day after day, so much so that the obscenity division has recently set up in-house counseling for them to talk about what they're seeing and how it is affecting them.

"This stuff isn't the easiest to deal with," Nguyen said recently while at his computer. "But I think we're going after the bad guys and we're making a difference, and that's what makes it worthwhile."
 
Paul

Offline spursfan101

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2004, 09:13:35 AM »
Quote
Good luck turning back that clock," said Paul Rodriguez, a spokesman for the association.

In a speech in 2002, Ashcroft made it clear that the Justice Department intends to try. He said pornography "invades our homes persistently though the mail, phone, VCR, cable TV and the Internet," and has "strewn its victims from coast to coast."

Given the millions of dollars Americans are spending each month on adult cable television, Internet sites and magazines and videos, many may see themselves not as victims but as consumers, with an expectation of rights, choices and privacy.

Ashcroft, a religious man who does not drink alcohol or caffeine, smoke, gamble or dance, and has fought unrelenting criticism that he has trod roughshod on civil liberties in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, is taking on the porn industry at a time when many experts say Americans are wary about government intrusion into their lives.

The Bush administration is eager to shore up its conservative base with this issue. Ashcroft held private meetings with conservative groups a year and a half ago to assure them that anti-porn efforts are a priority.


He dosen't drink, smoke, gamble or dance?  In public! In private, he's probably maintains one of the biggest porn collections in DC!  Hypocricy at its best.[/size]
Paul

Offline Ted

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2004, 12:00:35 PM »
Quote
He dosen't drink, smoke, gamble or dance?  In public! In private, he's probably maintains one of the biggest porn collections in DC!  Hypocricy at its best.[/size]
LOL 101! You really are passionate about this stuff aren't you! In the matter of a mere three lines, you've climbed into John Ashcroft's life and proclaimed the truth about his porn addiction to the world!

Just take a few deep breaths, calm down, wipe the spit off your computer screen, and think for just a minute. It's a sad fact that there are too many of us Americans who can't get through a day without seeing a dog pee on a girl or something like that. Don't worry. The food of life will not be torn from you just yet.

 ;)  
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Offline WayOutWest

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2004, 12:41:16 PM »
""Just about everything on the Internet and almost everything in the video stores and everything in the adult bookstores is still prosecutable illegal obscenity," he said."

The word Nazi get's thrown around alot in heated debates, there's even a Nazi argument rule in place.  Do a search it's quite funny.

That comment is so stupid that it's kinda scary.  I'm amazed that people actually think this way.  It's obviously a push from the religious hypocrites of the world, how far will they go?  

There are several hints of Nazi Germany going on in the US today it's erie.  After 9/11 the sense of nationalism was at the highest in my lifetime.  Our gov used that sentiment to strengthen thier positions including wealth and military power.  They got the country focused on an "enemy" and let domestic issues slide way to the back of the line.  Any opposition to the new "nationalist" ideals was labeled a traitor and vilified while the true villianous acts went unchecked (Iraq).  

Now that the "enemy" is not holding the attention of the nation we begin to identify and target new enemies.  The gay rights situation is a perfect example of that line of thinking.  We are not at the point of stripping them of their possesions and moving them away from the gen pop but we're limiting their rights the same way the rights of cripples, gypsies, jews, etc... were limited early on in the Nazi plan.  The victims of Nazi Germany didn't start out being thrown in ovens, it was more subdued than that.  They first lost certain rights, school, buisness free speach etc... and then the abuse began to escalate.

While the religous hypocrites that allegedly crusade for the "children" have been around for a long time and have been trying to do my job for decades (raising MY kids), I can't remember a time when so much money and gov help was available.  While there is no way in hell I expect the atrocities of Nazi Germany to occur here I'm afraid we're going to give up some ground in the fight to regain our freedoms as Americans.  Kinda like the negotiating tactic of aiming above your target to make your actual target seem like a "deal".  

These type of stories, not just this one, kinda leans me towards thinking we are heading down the road that China has traveled but I'm not as familiar with the events/history that lead up to the masacre at Tiemimen (sic?) square.  What a great job the US did in regards to that incident.  Flock we are such POS's sometimes!
 
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Offline Ted

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2004, 12:50:39 PM »
I think it's T-Eminem square.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

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Offline spursfan101

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2004, 12:54:48 PM »
Seriously, WHAT GUY, and I DARE YOU TO NAME ONE has not watched or owned something pornographic in their lifetime. WE ARE GUYS. THAT IS WHAT GUYS DO, were programmed that way.

Give me a guy who tells me he is disgusted by some fine arse babe getting plowed in a porn movie, and i would have serious issues about that guy's sexuality.

I'm sure even priests have their own private stash. Those that don't are probably the abusers of the world.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 01:05:41 PM »
Quote
I think it's T-Eminem square.
Thanks Ted, maybe you could get a job as the Microsoft Office Assistant?
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Ted

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2004, 01:08:10 PM »
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""Just about everything on the Internet and almost everything in the video stores and everything in the adult bookstores is still prosecutable illegal obscenity," he said."

The word Nazi get's thrown around alot in heated debates, there's even a Nazi argument rule in place.  Do a search it's quite funny.

That comment is so stupid that it's kinda scary.  I'm amazed that people actually think this way.  It's obviously a push from the religious hypocrites of the world, how far will they go? 

There are several hints of Nazi Germany going on in the US today it's erie.  After 9/11 the sense of nationalism was at the highest in my lifetime.  Our gov used that sentiment to strengthen thier positions including wealth and military power.  They got the country focused on an "enemy" and let domestic issues slide way to the back of the line.  Any opposition to the new "nationalist" ideals was labeled a traitor and vilified while the true villianous acts went unchecked (Iraq). 

Now that the "enemy" is not holding the attention of the nation we begin to identify and target new enemies.  The gay rights situation is a perfect example of that line of thinking.  We are not at the point of stripping them of their possesions and moving them away from the gen pop but we're limiting their rights the same way the rights of cripples, gypsies, jews, etc... were limited early on in the Nazi plan.  The victims of Nazi Germany didn't start out being thrown in ovens, it was more subdued than that.  They first lost certain rights, school, buisness free speach etc... and then the abuse began to escalate.

While the religous hypocrites that allegedly crusade for the "children" have been around for a long time and have been trying to do my job for decades (raising MY kids), I can't remember a time when so much money and gov help was available.  While there is no way in hell I expect the atrocities of Nazi Germany to occur here I'm afraid we're going to give up some ground in the fight to regain our freedoms as Americans.  Kinda like the negotiating tactic of aiming above your target to make your actual target seem like a "deal". 

These type of stories, not just this one, kinda leans me towards thinking we are heading down the road that China has traveled but I'm not as familiar with the events/history that lead up to the masacre at Tiemimen (sic?) square.  What a great job the US did in regards to that incident.  Flock we are such POS's sometimes!
WoW, I'm one of your religious hypocrites, so I thought I'd share my point of view. Now it's important to understand that, even though I'm a drone-like, neo-conservative religious zealot who wants to burn the part of the world that doesn't agree with me, I try really hard to be objective about stuff like porn and civil liberties.

Porn: For adults who want to find it, who need to find it, who shake and sweat if they can't find it, I think porn is okay. For me, I try to stay away from it because it doesn't do me any good. But this is a free country, and the right to choose for yourself is THE foundation of my belief system. However, I DO NOT like that the porn industry tries to ram itself into my home where I or my kids are exposed to something we choose not to see. As I see it, my right to choose NOT to see the porn is as important as your right to choose to see it. And the two don't have to conflict. You don't have to have plastered all over billboards and spam emails, and I don't have to have it removed from your favorite web sites. Does that sound fair?

Civil liberties: I've been doing some reading on the Patriot Act, and I still have some to do before I develop an opinion one way or another. But from what I've seen, I personally haven't lost any civil liberties as a result of this law. There are no searches without a judge-issued warrant (they are secret warrants, but they are still issued by a judge), and the only U.S. citizens held without a lawyer or a trial are those captured in foreign countries fighting for terrorists. If I'm wrong, I apologize, I still have some reading to do. But from what I've seen so far, I don't have a huge problem with the Patriot Act. Do I want things to go any farther? Absolutely not. And from what I understand, they probably won't. Isn't the Patriot Act a temporary measure that has to be re-ratified in the future?

Gay rights: What rights has the government "taken away" from homosexuals? As I understand it, gays have more rights than they ever have. In many states they are allowed civil unions. In some, they can marry. They are protected from discrimination through several labor and employment laws. I haven't heard of them being herded into rail cars just yet either. In fact, I think they're gaining ground rather than losing ground. Funny how you totally switch sides of the fence on this issue when it gives you a chance to attack the Bush Justice Department. I thought you were opposed to gay marriage because it's "unnatural?" Suddenly you're picketing for their diminishing civil liberties. LOL!

P.S. What would you have had us do in Tiananmen Square? Go in with military? Cut all trade ties? If we had done that, you probably would have lost your job in the resulting economic effects, and then you'd be bitching at the government for that, too. Come up with some solutions for once. Complaining is too easy.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2004, 01:19:37 PM by Ted »
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Offline Ted

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2004, 01:18:24 PM »
Quote
Seriously, WHAT GUY, and I DARE YOU TO NAME ONE has not watched or owned something pornographic in their lifetime. WE ARE GUYS. THAT IS WHAT GUYS DO, were programmed that way.

Give me a guy who tells me he is disgusted by some fine arse babe getting plowed in a porn movie, and i would have serious issues about that guy's sexuality.

I'm sure even priests have their own private stash. Those that don't are probably the abusers of the world.
I have, and you're right, we are programmed to do it.

Does that mean it's good for us? I've never seen a piece of porn that doesn't encourage men to use women as objects, pieces of meat with a hole in them (I'm not talking about the pot roast in your fridge 101).

Porn is now an anti-abuse weapon? Is that the story you tell yourself? Men who don't watch porn end up abusing children? C'mon 101, come back to the real world. Countless studies have shown the connection between porn and rape, porn and child abuse, porn and violent crime.

Look. You have every right to view whatever you want. You are right. I have the same predisposition to look at that kind of stuff as you or any other man. But I don't agree with the argument that says "we're programmed to like it so it must be okay." So much scienctific research and common sense tells us it isn't.
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Offline Lurker

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2004, 01:39:00 PM »
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I'm sure even priests have their own private stash. Those that don't are probably the abusers of the world.
Right, but their stash can be prosecuted under the child pornography laws.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2004, 01:42:34 PM »
Quote
Porn: For adults who want to find it, who need to find it, who shake and sweat if they can't find it, I think porn is okay. For me, I try to stay away from it because it doesn't do me any good. But this is a free country, and the right to choose for yourself is THE foundation of my belief system. However, I DO NOT like that the porn industry tries to ram itself into my home where I or my kids are exposed to something we choose not to see. As I see it, my right to choose NOT to see the porn is as important as your right to choose to see it. And the two don't have to conflict. You don't have to have plastered all over billboards and spam emails, and I don't have to have it removed from your favorite web sites. Does that sound fair?

That does sound fair but that's NOT what this discussion is about.  It's about ACTUALLY HAVING it removed and not allowing access to it.  It's not about what your beliefs/opinions Ted, it's about the actions of some nuts with some gov money and backing embarking on some BS crusade.

Quote
Civil liberties: I've been doing some reading on the Patriot Act, and I still have some to do before I develop an opinion one way or another. But from what I've seen, I personally haven't lost any civil liberties as a result of this law. There are no searches without a judge-issued warrant (they are secret warrants, but they are still issued by a judge), and the only U.S. citizens held without a lawyer or a trial are those captured in foreign countries fighting for terrorists. If I'm wrong, I apologize, I still have some reading to do. But from what I've seen so far, I don't have a huge problem with the Patriot Act. Do I want things to go any farther? Absolutely not. And from what I understand, they probably won't. Isn't the Patriot Act a temporary measure that has to be re-ratified in the future?

Ever heard of the team "loop hole"?  Do you think for a pico-second the rules will not be bent or broken in regards to the Patriot act like they have been for EVERY OTHER rule?  Income tax was supposed to be a temporary measure as well Ted.

Quote
Gay rights: What rights has the government "taken away" from homosexuals? As I understand it, gays have more rights than they ever have. In many states they are allowed civil unions. In some, they can marry. They are protected from discrimination through several labor and employment laws. I haven't heard of them being herded into rail cars just yet either. In fact, I think they're gaining ground rather than losing ground. Funny how you totally switch sides of the fence on this issue when it gives you a chance to attack the Bush Justice Department. I thought you were opposed to gay marriage because it's "unnatural?" Suddenly you're picketing for their diminishing civil liberties. LOL!

Ted, I don't know if it's a reading comprehension issue with you or you just like to debate like some punk bitch politician (sorry Dan).  What I've stated in the past on several occastions is that IMO what gays are and do is wrong and un-natural, if I was religious it would also be wrong in the eyes of God.  That does NOT mean they should have FEWER rights, and they DO, than the rest of us.  The gays are not having existing rights taken away from them, they are having certain rights not given to them (limiting) that should be theirs because those same rights are ours.  Now the gov is trying to amend the gawddarnflogging constitution because some idiots think they speak and think for the entire country.

Quote
P.S. What would you have had us do in Tiananmen Square? Go in with military? Cut all trade ties? If we had done that, you probably would have lost your job in the resulting economic effects, and then you'd be bitching at the government for that, too. Come up with some solutions for once. Complaining is too easy.

That's exactly my point about what a POS we can be, we'll step in when its PROFITABLE, not when it really matters.  Cutting trade with China would have been a start, a painful one no doubt.  I don't know if it's the poor reading comprehension posting or the punk bitch politician but I did lose my job because of Bush BS and posted that tidbit on this board.  I didin't bitch, I just got another job.  I don't know what the other 400 So-Californians did from the same company, nor do I know what the other 1200 Californians did up north who lost their jobs.
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"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

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"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

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Offline westkoast

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Administration wages war on pornography
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2004, 02:53:56 PM »
Quote
Seriously, WHAT GUY, and I DARE YOU TO NAME ONE has not watched or owned something pornographic in their lifetime. WE ARE GUYS. THAT IS WHAT GUYS DO, were programmed that way.

Give me a guy who tells me he is disgusted by some fine arse babe getting plowed in a porn movie, and i would have serious issues about that guy's sexuality.

I'm sure even priests have their own private stash. Those that don't are probably the abusers of the world.
I don't think should even be something brought up when you are speaking about porn.  You shouldnt have to say 'This is what guys do'.  If you are an adult and you want to watch porno in your bedroom then you should be allowed to do so.  Plain and simple.

I can't wait for Bush's attempts at a second term burn up in flames.  I am sick of all this policing of adults with the smoke screen of 'well its for the children'.  The government doesn't need to handle this.......parents need to start being parents instead of passing the buck to the government.
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