Author Topic: NBA is now investigating Bowen  (Read 3644 times)

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2007, 10:42:14 PM »
Don't have a problem with the Nash incident.  But as a completely neutral observer (I'm rooting for the Spurs to win the series, in fact), I have no doubt that the Amare incident was intentional, and a dirty play.  I could pretty much re-type everything, JoMal's pretty much said everything I wanted to say. The closeout (both the timing of it, and the manner in which he did it) was not a natural basketball act, and couple that with his past, and you lose the benefit of the doubt IMO.

Offline JoMal

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 10:39:05 AM »
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I understand that JoMaL.  What I am saying is it is not the same as dribbling a basketball.  That was not a good analogy.


I know you understand, koast. The dribbling analogy was strictly regarding how basketball players, because of the work and effort they put into the mechanics of the game, tend to be better then the rest of us in anticipating where the ball is going, and where jumpers will land.


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The last 2 times someone came down on Bowen's foot it is because he is trying to close out on them and gets too close.  If you don't get close enough guys like Ray Allen drill shots.  If you get too close you are bound to get yourself into trouble.   I just don't see how Bowen could decide when to do it and when not to do.  Or when he could 'get away' with it and not get away with.  To me I don't see how you focus in on playing the game of basketball and at the same time know that.  Does he have a dirty instinct?

Basically, yes, he has a dirty instinct. If you watch him, he gets in and often under his opponents regularly, with twisted ankles an occasional result. Years ago, I played against a guy like that. He regularly undercut me during games every time I went up around the basket. I finally came down full force on my left arm and hyper-extended it.

It only takes one time to get the right alignments to fall and get your opponent off the court. 

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I give him the benefit of the doubt because of who is complaining, replays, and the fact that if he was a real dirty player.... Why is he so selective who does it to?  Why didn't he do it to Allen Iverson last series?  Why didn't he do it to Dirk last year when they got eliminated?   Why doesn't he do it to Kobe Bryant, Gilbert Arenas, Carmelo Anthony or Baron Davis?  Those guys have success against him and have been shut down by him.    He always guards the best scorers in the league night in and night out and only the whiners seem to complain.  Things like this (calling someone dirty)  stick in the NBA and when guys are frustrated it couldn't possibly be because they are not playing well...it is because he is 'cheap' or getting calls.

Not so fast. Kobe once went after Bowen in a regular season game. Iverson is simply too fast for Bowen, too little and tends to bounce back up after getting decked. What on earth was he doing guarding him, anyway? Physically, Nash isn't Arenas, or Anthony, or Baron Davis. If Bowen did some of this stuff against those guys, we would be reading an obit on Bowen now instead of what a dirty player he is. Think Bonzi Wells. Against certain opponents, Bowen doesn't seem to deter them much. This is, in fact, the best arguement against Bowen you could have come up with. Why doesn't he pick on all his opponents? Because he knows he would be overmatched against them, while he can bully guys like Ray Allen and Nash to distraction, or hopes to. He seems not to affect Nash as much as his antics would indicate he is trying to.
 
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Does everyone seem to forget 10 or so years ago when John Stockton and Steve Kerr were doing moves like Manu, they were 'vet moves' and not 'dirty'  (And it pains me to defend Manu right here just to put it out there).  I've heard Marv Albert actually commend John Stockton for pulling a 'vet move' in the middle of a playoff game.

Um....yeah. Years back, when the Kings seemed to match up with the Jazz in every playoff, Bibby would be covered with scratch marks after playing against John Stockton. He would be oozing blood during post game interviews. Why do you think Webber put a shiver into Stockton early one series as he drove the lane and put Stockton ten feet sliding across the hardwood?

That is how you deal with it. That is what Phoenix must do as well regarding Bowen.   
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 11:02:23 AM »
If I were Nellie and Steven Jackson pulled even one of his not running back on D while he cries to the ref ... I would bench his butt in to the middle of next week.  He literally does it on almost every possession where he shoots and doesn't score.  Of course, Nellie's probably just ecstatic that Jackson hasn't been arrested in like 4 weeks, so he doesn't want to rock the boat. 

If you were Nellie and you benched Jackson for anything, you had better explain in your next interview for a heading coaching job, after getting fired, why you benched one of the key players that got you into the post season to begin with.

Without Jackson, the Warriors are sitting at home right now.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 12:10:07 PM »

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I know you understand, koast. The dribbling analogy was strictly regarding how basketball players, because of the work and effort they put into the mechanics of the game, tend to be better then the rest of us in anticipating where the ball is going, and where jumpers will land.

Agreed.  You are right that they have a bit better anticipation then most people.  Even us weekend warriors.




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Basically, yes, he has a dirty instinct. If you watch him, he gets in and often under his opponents regularly, with twisted ankles an occasional result. Years ago, I played against a guy like that. He regularly undercut me during games every time I went up around the basket. I finally came down full force on my left arm and hyper-extended it. 

Dirty instinct or vet experience?  Depending on the player the wording changes.  I understand your POV, as far as what you are saying about instinct, but I don't feel he wants to go around and hurt people on purpose.  Maybe that is a little bit of my personality coming through because when I compete I want to play the best possible people.  I would never try to harm a player that was getting the best of me.  It would make me want to try harder.


It only takes one time to get the right alignments to fall and get your opponent off the court. 

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Not so fast. Kobe once went after Bowen in a regular season game. Iverson is simply too fast for Bowen, too little and tends to bounce back up after getting decked. What on earth was he doing guarding him, anyway? Physically, Nash isn't Arenas, or Anthony, or Baron Davis. If Bowen did some of this stuff against those guys, we would be reading an obit on Bowen now instead of what a dirty player he is. Think Bonzi Wells. Against certain opponents, Bowen doesn't seem to deter them much. This is, in fact, the best arguement against Bowen you could have come up with. Why doesn't he pick on all his opponents? Because he knows he would be overmatched against them, while he can bully guys like Ray Allen and Nash to distraction, or hopes to. He seems not to affect Nash as much as his antics would indicate he is trying to.

Kobe has never called him a dirty player.  I've seen him try to go at him in the course of the game but everytime talks about Bowen he talks about how much he enjoys to play against him because he is a great defender.  This is coming from Mr. Ego, who one would think if he was shut down by Bowen, he would have to blame something rather then give props, that is not the case.  That is where I see someone like Ray Allen, he has such an ego that he cannot admit Bowen gets the best of him, it has to be he does it cuz he is cheap.

He plays the same way against those other guys but they are a bit more talented as far as offensive moves go.  He can't get away with things with a Kobe or Melo because of their talent.  It is not like he doesn't get all up on Kobe or doesn't close out very very close on Melo.

To me it seems like he is  frustrating Nash...Did you see the game last night?  Or the game before it?  He has had him making more turnovers and bad decisions then you normally see him make.
 


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Um....yeah. Years back, when the Kings seemed to match up with the Jazz in every playoff, Bibby would be covered with scratch marks after playing against John Stockton. He would be oozing blood during post game interviews. Why do you think Webber put a shiver into Stockton early one series as he drove the lane and put Stockton ten feet sliding across the hardwood?

That is how you deal with it. That is what Phoenix must do as well regarding Bowen.   

What has changed then?  While trying to get a player to roll their ankle wouldn't be considered a vet move alot of the grabbing of jerseys, holding arms and falling backwards to get fouls called, and all those small tiny things they do get an advantage.

Pheonix doesn't have a player who is going to do that.  Amare is not going to do that for them.  Kurt Thomas is not quite that kind of guy.  Who else would fill that enforcer role?  Alot of teams had that type of guy but PHX seems a little 'soft'

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« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 12:13:06 PM by westkoast »
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Offline JoMal

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 12:31:14 PM »
westkoast -

I would opt for Raja Bell, maybe, but in general, if it is physicality that the Suns will need, they are no match for the Spurs. If the Jazz get into the next series agains the Spurs, forget the regular season - Sloan will release the dogs then.

And I never said Kobe called Bowen a dirty player, and regardless of his "media" opinion voiced after a game against him, Kobe DID go after Bowen in a regular season game a while back.

I totally agree that Bowen seems the same defender against those other players, but guys like Anthony and Davis and Arenas - they are going to overpower Bowen if it comes to that. And those players will give Bowen lots of opportunities to stick a foot where it might do the most damage, since they do so much shooting.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline msc

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 12:51:04 PM »
If I were Nellie and Steven Jackson pulled even one of his not running back on D while he cries to the ref ... I would bench his butt in to the middle of next week.  He literally does it on almost every possession where he shoots and doesn't score.  Of course, Nellie's probably just ecstatic that Jackson hasn't been arrested in like 4 weeks, so he doesn't want to rock the boat. 

If you were Nellie and you benched Jackson for anything, you had better explain in your next interview for a heading coaching job, after getting fired, why you benched one of the key players that got you into the post season to begin with.

Without Jackson, the Warriors are sitting at home right now.

Yes, it's truly unfortunate that a jack-hole like Stephen Jackson is indeed one of the reasons the Warriors are still in it.  Although the heightened play of Davis, Barnes, Harrington and others are obviously a big factor as well.  And while Jackson was a stud against Dallas, his shooting % has been gawd-awful against Utah. 

All that being said, I don't care.  If you are crying to a ref after a play instead of getting back on defense you should be benched.  Ideally Nellie would have done this during the regular season and the precedent would already be well defined come playoff time. 

But hey, the Warriors are in the second round of the playoffs for the first time since the ice age and Nellie and Jackson can do no wrong in the eyes of their fans and management.  Pass me the kool-aid, but I can’t help but wonder how well they’d be doing if they were actually disciplined?  So far they've managed to get deep in to the second round while playing like completely undisciplined vigilantes.  It's really astonishing.  However, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see the GSW up 3-1 right now if they played ½ as disciplined as the Sloan coached Jazz.  As tightly contested as some of the games have been every little thing makes a difference in the outcome. 

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: NBA is now investigating Bowen
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2007, 01:27:58 PM »
I'm with Derek.  I have no problem with the knee to Nash, but the Stoudemire thing was unquestionably dirty.  Down-right filthy.

The league has let the dirty stuff go in this series, and now, it has to deal with it thanks to Horry's check of Nash.

Unquestionably, the two players who DESERVE suspensions for their actions are Horry and Bowen.  If the NBA's discipline doesn't take care of both, then it has failed.

Joe

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