The Denver-New York brawl

[Reality]

After the Indy-Detroit fiasco last year.....
Didn't Stern have every player sign off on what the consequenses would be of future brawls and specific player involvement?

This one spilled into the stands, albeit no fans were hurt.
To me Stern has got to stop this right now.

Will Marshmellow Anthony get the star treatment?

[WayOutWest]

Finally got a chance to see the incident, Melo should definately pay a major penalty.  Not only did he take a big swing but he connected.  The two other guys who took it into the stands, not aimed at a fan like Detroit but, and knocked over some fans should also face some stilff penalties.  It's one thing for a player to knock you over in a hustle play, quite another when they are fighting.

I've heard all the "disrespect" talk but nothing justifies what happened.  While the NY players did rough up the Denver guys because they were being "disrespected", it was the Denver guys who started it.  I'd say at least half the games JO was suspened, not served, would be about right.  Too bad Isiah didn't catch a arrant punch, too bad for NY fans anyway.

[Derek Bodner]

I don't think Mardy Collins tried to foul him hard.  I think it was stupid, but I think all he was trying to do was stop him from getting the shot off.  Wrong, but not malicious.

it didn't appear to me that Nate Robinson threw a punch, I thought he was pushing, but no punches.

Carmelo was just stupid.  Then to run away like that, LOL.  He'll be gone at least 10 games.

[Randy]

Can anyone affirm Isaiah's comments before the hard foul though?  I don't think a coach should be allowed to threaten players -- I think, as much as Melo issued his cheap shot, that the league needs to look into a coach threatening a player and then having one of his players deliver.  I don't think a clothesline is just a hard foul -- but that doesn't justify Melo's reaction.

Melo - 10 games
Isaiah - 10 games (threatening a player and then having a player deliver a cheap hard foul that could have produced an injury)
Collins - 3 games (it's not his first hard foul and there are better ways to deliver a hard foul than wrapping your arms around someone's neck when going up for a lay-up)

[Reality]

I don't think Mardy Collins tried to foul him hard.  I think it was stupid, but I think all he was trying to do was stop him from getting the shot off.  Wrong, but not malicious.

Carmelo was just stupid.  Then to run away like that, LOL.  He'll be gone at least 10 games.

Dabods I agree 100% on Mardy.  My beef is he could have stopped the shot just as easily by slapping down with one hand.  The neck "wrap" was unneccessary.  However Mardy and Knicks felt like message needed to be sent that you aren't going to elevate period like your last showboat trip down the floor.  I side with Knicks up until this point.

Mr *Steet* Carmelo swingin and running.  Typical punk.  Maybe Snoop Doggy Doo taught him that one.
15 games.  I would have liked to have seen 30 and also more for the ones who spilled into the stands.

[Lurker]

Stern has spoken....and Isiah got off free.

Nuggets-Knicks Suspensions
Posted Dec 18 2006 12:59PM
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NEW YORK, December 18, 2006 – In response to the events at Saturday's game between the New York Knicks and the Denver Nuggets, Commissioner David Stern issued the following statement:

“The NBA and its players represent a game of extraordinary skill, athleticism and grace, and, for good or bad, set an example for the entire basketball world, on and off the court. On the positive side, there is our players’ passion for the game, engagement with our fans, commitment to their communities and respect for the history and tradition of the game. With respect to the negative, while we have worked diligently to eliminate fighting from our game, there are failures such as Saturday night at Madison Square Garden that demonstrate there is still more to be done.

“It is our obligation to take the strongest possible steps to avoid such failures in the future and to make a statement to all who follow the game of basketball that we understand our obligations and take them seriously. Accordingly, I am issuing the penalties listed below, and will take the occasion to set forth some of the considerations that have influenced my decision here and will continue to guide us as we seek to demonstrate our determination that the NBA and its players be viewed as standing for the best in sports.

“Among the considerations that influenced my decision:

“Teams will be held accountable for the actions of their employees – management and players alike.

“Players must take advantage of a break or pause in a heated situation to stop and restore order, instead of escalating the situation.

“Players must heed directions from referees and others who are trying to maintain order and not continue to put fans, referees and peacemakers in harm’s way.”

The suspensions and fines are below:

The Knicks and Nuggets organizations have each been fined $500,000 each as a result of the altercation.
Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony has been suspended for 15 games.
Knicks guard Nate Robinson has been suspended for 10 games.
Nuggets guard J.R. Smith has been suspended for 10 games.
Knicks guard Mardy Collins has been suspended for six games.
Knicks forward Jared Jeffries has been suspended for four games.
Knicks center Jerome James has been suspended for one game for leaving the bench during an on-court altercation.
Nuggets forward Nene has been suspended one game for leaving the bench during an on-court altercation.

[Reality]

Can anyone affirm Isaiah's comments before the hard foul though?  I don't think a coach should be allowed to threaten players -- I think, as much as Melo issued his cheap shot, that the league needs to look into a coach threatening a player and then having one of his players deliver.

'Dolph,
allegedly the NBA is:
Report: NBA investigating if Knicks' Thomas ordered hard foulDaily News Wire ServicesThe NBA is investigating whether Isiah Thomas, the president and coach of the Knicks, ordered a hard foul that touched off a brawl with the Denver Nuggets on Saturday night at Madison Square Garden, several people involved in the investigation told the New York Times yesterday.
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/basketball/16264801.htm

[Skandery]

Well.......Isiah didn't get off totally free.  He just cost his boss another $500,000 and with the losses starting to pile on, I'm guessing this fine came at a pretty bad time for him. 

I haven't seen any video of the play at all so I don't whether these fines were (un)just.

I like what one Yahoo journalist said, "When 5'6 Nate Robinson is your team's enforcer...."  Eddy Curry, you are seven foot panzy.  From the various accounts, Carmelo comes off looking like a punk, too.

[JoMal]

Ah, if only the Knicks had shown that toughness and fire in the first 46 minutes of this game. Or in any game, for that matter.

If Thomas thought he was defending the dignity of his team by this display, he might try actually getting his players to play better basketball so they won't wind up on the receiving end of a home blowout in the first place.

Once that 'special' investigation of Thomas concludes, Isiah may find himself sitting by himself in some hotel room for a month every time the Knicks play, because Stern should clearly make an example of him as well, not that it will change much of anything.

[Reality]

You guys buying what Karl says about not running up the score?  Im not.  The games he references are much smaller leads with much more gametime left.  Nuggets up 19 with 90 seconds.  That's time to stop the showboat dunking or do not be surprised when you get Mardy roped.  Stop the lead paranoia line.
To be clear, i think Mardy should have slapped and not roped, but as dabads and the pictures show it was not a vicious neck roping.

DENVER (AP) - George Karl blasted Knicks coach Isiah Thomas for his role in the brawl between New York and the Nuggets, calling him a "jerk" who acted despicably by blaming Denver for the fight.

"He should be accountable for what his actions are," Karl said.

Karl was livid with Thomas for telling Carmelo Anthony not to go into the lane in the final minute-plus of the Nuggets' 123-100 win at Madison Square Garden on Saturday night. Ten players were ejected after Mardy Collins' hard foul on J.R. Smith started the fight.

Karl also said Thomas' actions "after the game were despicable."

"There's no question in my mind it was premeditated," Karl said in an obscenity-laced news conference on Denver's practice court Monday morning. "He made a bad situation worse. He's a jerk for what he's trying to do."

Thomas maintained that it wasn't what he said or didn't say to Anthony, but Karl's actions at the end of the game that may have instigated the brawl. Thomas felt Karl should've taken his starters out before the Nuggets were up nearly 20 points.

"I can't speak for him, but he put his players in a tough situation," Thomas said Monday morning. "I'm not here to place blame, we all shared in it."

When informed that Thomas wasn't suspended by the league for his role, Karl just shook his head. He lost his two leading scorers when commissioner David Stern handed out the suspensions - Anthony for 15 games and Smith for 10 games.

"If that's the truth (about Thomas) then there's no question it was wrong," Karl said.

Stern said he'd talk to the Nuggets' organization about Karl's comments regarding Thomas.

"We believe that the heat of the moment allows certain overstepping of traditional bounds," Stern said. "We understand that we've got some original characters among our coaching staff and we allow a one-time outburst. But over time we have to realize that a lot of people are watching us, many of them young."

Karl and Thomas already had tension in their relationship over the way Larry Brown was fired by the Knicks. Karl and Brown are close friends.

But Thomas said he didn't mean to provoke anything Saturday.

"I just said to those guys (Anthony and Marcus Camby) that this isn't a way that you should act," Thomas said. "You shouldn't be rubbing it in, but it wasn't a threat. It was more like this isn't how you do it. It wasn't necessarily not to go to the basket but basically don't rub it in."

Karl claimed he wasn't doing that by leaving his starters in the game.

"Where were we running the score up?" he said. "He had the same team in the game that pressed us and trapped us and cut a 25-point lead to 10 in about two minutes. Same team. Same pressure. Same 3-point shooters. Exact same. He didn't throw in no towel. He didn't take his best team off the court and say, 'Hey, the game's over.' He never gave one (darn) signal to it. It's absurd."

Karl said he's seen big leads by the Nuggets evaporate before and wanted to guard against it. After losing three of the first four on the road trip, Karl wanted to make sure the Nuggets put the win away.

"My team has blown 10-point leads, 11-point leads with two minutes to go," Karl said. "I watched Utah blow a 12-point lead to Sacramento two nights before that with four minutes to go in the game and you're telling me that I'm running the score up?"  Karl fumed for a few seconds longer and then ended his news conference.

"I'm done," he said as he walked away.

[Lurker]

Funny thing is that Karl did basically the same thing against Atlanta a few nights earlier and there were no charges of running the score up or disrespecting the Hawks.

Do I think Karl was trying to run up the score - YES!  Does this entitle Thomas to send out a headhunter and specifically warn the opponent's star to "stay out of the lane" - HELL NO!  Karl has every right to leave his starters in the game...although I would say it would be a bad coaching decision.


IMO Anthony got a fair assessment…20 games may have been better since his punch came as the fight was starting to cool off.

Nate Robinson should also have gotten 15-20 games as he seemed to be the main instigator and wouldn’t let the thing go.

Smith & Collins got too many games.  Collins should serve a 2 or 3 game suspension for handing out flagrants in back-to-back blowouts establishing that the league won’t condone headhunting.  Smith reacted like any player taken down by the neck would have.  And IMO would have ended up walking away if not for Robinson’s actions.  At most should also have gotten 2-3 games for wrestling with Robinson in the fans’ laps.

Jeffries got 4 games for chasing after Melo AFTER the sucker punch??  He never threw a punch, he was already on the court and only reacted after Anthony punked his teammate.  A couple games tops.

Nene & Jerome James – 1 game each for leaving the bench area.  Well documented and no room for argument.

Isiah Thomas – 0 games.  Big market bias at its best.  This guy has threatened other players this year.  He encourages his team to go out and hurt other players.  Hell he should be fined/suspended just for the stupid personnel moves he has made.  But to let him off completely blameless because there is no “definitive” evidence is the league giving the management/ownership group in their biggest market an early Xmas gift.

[JoMal]

The NBA should ALWAYS hand out game suspensions according to the intent of the instigator, NOT because of a player standing on the receiving end of a punch or being the guy who got clotheslined. That just sends a ridiculous message, if you ask me. 

To me, Collins and Smith should have gotten much fewer games off.

Especially Smith. He essentially was attacked by both Collins, by the original foul, then by Robinson, for being, what, angry for getting clotheslined in the first place? So Stern slaps him with ten games? Talk about excessive.

Those games should be given to both Carmelo and Robinson, who are by far the most at fault for what happened and the suspensions should reflect that.

Thomas should be suspended for life. Not so much over this incident, but because the guy is destroying the professional game of basketball as we know it, so for the good of the game, he needs to be removed.

[Joe Vancil]

On the suspensions:

Carmelo may have thrown the punches, but he wasn't the instigator, in my opinion. 

Let's start with Mardy Collins.  He got 6 games.  Under my system - he gets 6 games.  Flagrant-2, which is immediate ejection plus one game suspension, plus as Ben Wallace got for the Detroit embarrassment, 5 games as an initiator of the conflict.

Nene and Jerome James.  1 game.  Dead on.

Now where I disagree:

J.R. Smith.  He got 10 games.  In my system, he gets 5 - that for being involved in the fight in the stands.  Outside of that, he might have gotten nothing.

Jared Jeffries.  4 games seems a bit steep.  I'll give him 3, because it appears he was about to start the fight all over again.

Carmelo Anthony:  10 games, not 15.  Yes, his punch escalated the brawl, and that's why he gets 10 games.  But that's ESCALATED, not INSTIGATED, and Anthony did keep the fight on the floor.

Nate Robinson:  20 games, not the slap-on-the-wrist 10 he got.  *THIS* is the instigator of the fight, and the player who took the fight into the stands.  10 games as the instigator, 5 games for being in the stands, and 5 games for taking it into the stands.

Denver organization:  $250,000 for involvement.

New York organization:  $500,000 for involvement.

George Karl:  $25,000 fine for comments after the fight.  Being right doesn't get you off the hook.

Isiah Thomas:  $10,000 fine for "warning" players - there's no reason for him to be talking to opposing players, and as such, he was a contributor to the situation.  3 game suspension.

One year (82 games) probationary period for each team.  Any on-court fight resulting in multi-player suspensions will result in $1-million dollar escalating fine.  Critics will point that this gives other teams more lee-way to go "head-hunting" against these two teams.  My answer?  Yes, it does.  This could have been avoided at SEVERAL points along the way - by Karl, by Thomas, by Collins, by Smith, by Robinson.  Take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.  If you take some knocks along the way, you earned them.