The Players speak...

[Lurker]

Really?  You think that Pop could make a better defensive team out of the current Lakers squad?  I certainly don't!

This Laker team isn't a good defensive team....they were a good defensive team in the month of December and part of January but have taken 2 steps back since then IMO.  Part of the blame, whether warranted or not, has to fall on Phil Jackson's shoulders (and before the non-Laker fans try to twist that quote around, I think he has done a good job this year just not getting through some of their thick skulls on that end of the floor)

Do I think Pop could improve the Lakers defense? Honestly, yes I do.  Like I said he seems to get his players on the same defensive page very quickly and has never had a team that played less than great defense.  The Lakers were a good defensive squad when they were winning championships but were not the best in the league 2 of those years.  I believe SA had the better defense during the 3rd championship....so its more than just personel.

Phil Jackson has yet to get it through the guard's heads that one of them is suppose to stay back to cover quick outlet passes when they are on offense.

The coach can preach defense all he wants to your apathetic squad, but to really get them to buy into it, you need a guy on the team who inherently understands the concept in the scheme of the NBA arena.

While offense can be practiced and executed by rote, there just are too many subtleties to the actual gametime defensive experience that can't be understood watching film or being told how to properly move your feet and anticipate passing lanes in practice.

If you are lucky enough to have a Bowen, a Christie, a Kirilenko, or an Artest already on your team, your other guys will pick up the defense that much quicker. If you don't, the coach is preaching to the wall.

Therefore, one of the strengths of a good coach is to realyze your team needs that defensive stopper to make your defense work. That makes a Jerry Sloan an excellent defensive coach, but a mediocre offensive one. Defensive-minded coaches will tend to seek out defensive players first and hope they can also play some offense.

Then Jomal...who is that defender on the Mavs?  Or maybe AJ just knows how to get walls to listen.


And as far as PJ being a great....or even good...offensive coach well, I disagree strongly with that.  Tex Winters was a great offensive coach.   PJ is best as a motivator and drawing a team together.  Offensively he has run Winter's schemes and usually with the best one-on-one player in the game.  

The Bulls great offense was predicated off of their defense and transition scoring.  In the half court set they ran the triangle but more times than not MJ made something happen.

The same thing holds true with the Lakers.  During the title years the Lakers were a much better defensive team.  And in the half court sets you knew who was going to make it happen....Shaq the first couple years then Kobe.  And usually outside of the true triangle offense.

Or another way to put it....if PJ is such a great offensive coach then why aren't the Lakers a better TEAM offensively?  Basically they rely on Kobe and hope that one or two others show up.  The triangle doesn't create the good looks and easy baskets that it should for the Lakers as a team.

[JoMal]

Then Jomal...who is that defender on the Mavs?  Or maybe AJ just knows how to get walls to listen.


 

There is a slight difference regarding the Mavs. That knowledgible on-court defensive stopper happens to be AJ himself. He isn't that far removed from playing not to be an on-court teacher.

[westkoast]

Really?  You think that Pop could make a better defensive team out of the current Lakers squad?  I certainly don't!

This Laker team isn't a good defensive team....they were a good defensive team in the month of December and part of January but have taken 2 steps back since then IMO.  Part of the blame, whether warranted or not, has to fall on Phil Jackson's shoulders (and before the non-Laker fans try to twist that quote around, I think he has done a good job this year just not getting through some of their thick skulls on that end of the floor)

Do I think Pop could improve the Lakers defense? Honestly, yes I do.  Like I said he seems to get his players on the same defensive page very quickly and has never had a team that played less than great defense.  The Lakers were a good defensive squad when they were winning championships but were not the best in the league 2 of those years.  I believe SA had the better defense during the 3rd championship....so its more than just personel.

Phil Jackson has yet to get it through the guard's heads that one of them is suppose to stay back to cover quick outlet passes when they are on offense.

The coach can preach defense all he wants to your apathetic squad, but to really get them to buy into it, you need a guy on the team who inherently understands the concept in the scheme of the NBA arena.

While offense can be practiced and executed by rote, there just are too many subtleties to the actual gametime defensive experience that can't be understood watching film or being told how to properly move your feet and anticipate passing lanes in practice.

If you are lucky enough to have a Bowen, a Christie, a Kirilenko, or an Artest already on your team, your other guys will pick up the defense that much quicker. If you don't, the coach is preaching to the wall.

Therefore, one of the strengths of a good coach is to realyze your team needs that defensive stopper to make your defense work. That makes a Jerry Sloan an excellent defensive coach, but a mediocre offensive one. Defensive-minded coaches will tend to seek out defensive players first and hope they can also play some offense.

Jeff Van Gundy is a good defensive coach...who exactly on his squad is that type of player you are reffering to? Kobe Bryant is a good defender and a very hard worker yet your scenario does not apply to the Lakers.  When Christie was moved off Sac-Town he did not improve the defense of the team he went to.  Rick Fox was a good defender and that did not seem to rub off on Shaq (only scoring points helped improve his defense).  There have been good defensive teams that don't have defensive stoppers of the caliber you mentioned.  Who on Memphis is a defensive stopper of that caliber?  What about Indiana?  Those are the 2nd and 3rd best defensive teams in the league right now.  New Orleans is right behind Detroit in defensive ranking and who on that team is a stopper that makes players pick up defense faster???  Obviously Byron Scott isnt preaching to the wall.  I don't think JVG or Rick Carlisle are either.

There are plenty of things that you don't need a Ron Artest or Andre Kirlenko on your team to get your players to do.  I understand that they could help point things out or lead by example. However, if LA was to land Ron Artest that doesn't mean all the sudden that Parker and Sasha would be in the right position in the triangle to stop leak outs.  Those are mental lapses on their part.  Having a defensive stopper in the middle is not going to change that.

I agree watching tape is not the answer to teaching someone how to play defense.   It certainly helps.  There is a special instinct on defense that only the best of the best have and that is what seperates them from the other defenders in the league.  Tape however does help and so does practice.  Especially when you are trying to point out how rotations are suppose to go in help situations.  Or better yet when you are preparing to play certain teams who have offensive players who like to shoot from the same spots all night (See Bruce Bowen, Richard Hamilton's curls).  You dont need a stopper of the caliber you mentioned on your team to play very good team defense...NO, Memphis, and Indiana prove that.

Lurker, the triangle does create good looks for this team when the spacing is correct.  The problem is that it hasnt been.  Also the lack of a decent back to the basket player doesnt really help the spacing problem either.  In the big Laker wins this year (Like against Detroit for example) they won because the triangle offense was getting them better shots and easy baskets.

[JoMal]

 

Jeff Van Gundy is a good defensive coach...who exactly on his squad is that type of player you are reffering to? Kobe Bryant is a good defender and a very hard worker yet your scenario does not apply to the Lakers.  When Christie was moved off Sac-Town he did not improve the defense of the team he went to.  Rick Fox was a good defender and that did not seem to rub off on Shaq (only scoring points helped improve his defense).  There have been good defensive teams that don't have defensive stoppers of the caliber you mentioned.  Who on Memphis is a defensive stopper of that caliber?  What about Indiana?  Those are the 2nd and 3rd best defensive teams in the league right now.  New Orleans is right behind Detroit in defensive ranking and who on that team is a stopper that makes players pick up defense faster???  Obviously Byron Scott isnt preaching to the wall.  I don't think JVG or Rick Carlisle are either.

Not very good examples. Artest HAD been on Indiana long enough for him to impart what he knew about defense to the Pacer players still there. Bryant is not what I would call a defensive stopper. He relies more on putting pressure on his opponent with his offense enough to where the other guy becomes a non-factor on offense himself. Christie was done once he left Sacramento, or he never would have been traded. What he could do on defense on the court was no longer there. There was absolutely no way either Kobe or Shaq would have listened to just about anyone, least of all Fox, with their respective egos, and neither was as concerned with defense as much as scoring at any point. Superstars, you might be surprised to know, do not think they need to be taught anything by a nonsuperstar - at any time, place, or setting. As for Memphis, Battier and both Jones's are tough defenders, Bobby Jackson has slowed some, but his defense once was stellar, and none of their teammates ignore defense. Scott and Avery Johnson of the Mavs both were defensive stallwarts in their day, so can relate to on-the-court defense better then most.  

There are plenty of things that you don't need a Ron Artest or Andre Kirlenko on your team to get your players to do.  I understand that they could help point things out or lead by example. However, if LA was to land Ron Artest that doesn't mean all the sudden that Parker and Sasha would be in the right position in the triangle to stop leak outs.  Those are mental lapses on their part.  Having a defensive stopper in the middle is not going to change that.

There I think you are totally wrong. Before Artest came to SacTown, our defense stunk far more then the Lakers defense does now. If you don't think that Artest would have (physically if need be) pointed Parker and Sasha to exactly where they could do the most good on defense, and have them doing it within a month of his arrival, you aren't listening.

Artest is the kind of guy who allows your other guys to feel like they can gamble a bit on defense, knowing he is backing them up. Steals go up, tipped passes go up, blocks go up, all kinds of little things that these players would not dare try suddenly start to happen. When a teammate comes up to you after one of those mental lapses and tells you exactly what you should have done, somehow that makes a bigger impact then a coach doing it, maybe because that player is out there with you and when a peer says it, you just might react differently.

[Joe Vancil]

For my money, the best offensive coach is Flip Saunders.  The best defensive coach is Phil Jackson.

I don't value Popovich that highly.  He's Jeff Van Gundy with good players.

I'm a big believer in Jerry Sloan (although his stock is falling fast in my book), Rick Carlisle, Nate McMillan, George Karl, Dwane Casey, Doc Rivers, Pat Riley, Eddie Jordan, Mike D'Antoni, Maurice Cheeks, Avery Johnson, and Terry Stotts.  I give a grudging acknowledgement to Larry Brown.  

I'm not a believer at all in Lawrence Frank, Mike Brown, Scott Skiles, Sam Mitchell, Mike Woodson, Rick Adelman,  Bernie Bickerstaff, Greg Popovich, Jeff Van Gundy, Mike Fratello and Mike Montgomery.

Jury is still out on Bob Hill, Brian Hill, Byron Scott, and Mike Dunleavy.

Right now, the first person on my coaching ejector seat is Bernie Bickerstaff.  17 and 45 for Charlotte is ridiculous.

 

[westkoast]

Not very good examples. Artest HAD been on Indiana long enough for him to impart what he knew about defense to the Pacer players still there. Bryant is not what I would call a defensive stopper.

They are still playing good defense although he hadn't played on the team really in 2 years on top of that they lost their best shot blocker.  So I dont agree with you here at all.  That's like me saying Christie was on Sactown long enough to where he should have impacted the Kings....yet he didnt.  Not to use your own teammate and players against you but wouldnt what your saying apply to your own team?  He was one hell of a defender yet no one else bought into it.

As for Memphis, Battier and both Jones's are tough defenders, Bobby Jackson has slowed some, but his defense once was stellar, and none of their teammates ignore defense. Scott and Avery Johnson of the Mavs both were defensive stallwarts in their day, so can relate to on-the-court defense better then most.

But who on that team is the defensive stopper ala AK, Bowen, Artest?!?  No one.  Certainly Pau Gasol, Battier, and Eddie Jones don't make their teammates feel like they can gamble more.  They are solid defenders but not stoppers.  Certainly nowhere near a Bruce Bowen or AK type defender.

Scott and Avery were defenders in their day but I thought a coach needs a defensive stopper in order to get through to their players?  You are hinting to the fact that they dont....which is what I am saying.  Not everyone needs a defensive stopper to get their team to play good defense.  Now I do agree to be considered a great defensive team you need a Tim Duncan or a Ben Wallace.  I also do agree that it is contagious.  The thing is so is offense.  When players share the ball and score it infects the rest of the team.  There are lots of teams who were pretty good offensive teams without a Jordan, Kobe, Tmac, or Allen Iverson.  Chris Webber wasn't the same caliber scorer as the above mentioned but Sactown had the best offense in the league for a while (I know your loving all my Kings references instead of Laker ones in this post haha).

There I think you are totally wrong. Before Artest came to SacTown, our defense stunk far more then the Lakers defense does now. If you don't think that Artest would have (physically if need be) pointed Parker and Sasha to exactly where they could do the most good on defense, and have them doing it within a month of his arrival, you aren't listening

Right...but wasnt Christie a defense stopper just as much so as Ron Artest?  Did he not try to help his teammates on defense by pointing things out?  I am sure he did.  He seemed like a nice stand up guy who wanted to do whatever helped the team.

And I dont think Ron Artest would have pointed parker and sasha exactly where they could do the most good on defense because alot of their problem is where they are positioned on the offensive end.  In the triangle there is always at least one guard back to prevent leak outs and to try to slow down fast breaks.  If you think Artest would pick up the triangle the minute he got there then I dont think you are listening  :nod:   The positioning ive been complaining about is actually starting on the offensive end for those two.  This has been pointed out to them by Phil and Kobe on a few occasions.

Artest is the kind of guy who allows your other guys to feel like they can gamble a bit on defense, knowing he is backing them up. Steals go up, tipped passes go up, blocks go up, all kinds of little things that these players would not dare try suddenly start to happen. When a teammate comes up to you after one of those mental lapses and tells you exactly what you should have done, somehow that makes a bigger impact then a coach doing it, maybe because that player is out there with you and when a peer says it, you just might react differently.

I agree with you on this.  A player like Artest does make a difference.  However not in every case.  AK-47 is a better defensive player than Artest is at this point yet the Jazz are not one of the best teams on the defensive side.   Again tho I do agree...even on the offensive side someone like Artest gives guards weavos to take it at big men and get into the paint knowing if they get beat up Artest is going to take up for them.  Rodman did it for Jordan.  Laimbeer did it for Isiah.  Malone did it for Stockton.

And for my Laker reference...why is it when Ron Artest comes to point something out to a teammates you want to buy him dinner and gifts.  When Kobe points something out to his teammates its him belitteling them in front of millions?   I just dont get the double standard.  Not that I ever did or will just pointing something out that maybe you didnt realize you were doing.

[JoMal]

And for my Laker reference...why is it when Ron Artest comes to point something out to a teammates you want to buy him dinner and gifts.  When Kobe points something out to his teammates its him belitteling them in front of millions?   I just dont get the double standard.  Not that I ever did or will just pointing something out that maybe you didnt realize you were doing.

westkoast, I am going to respond to all your good points by directing my reply to this last item in your post. There IS something else that is involved here that I neglected to point out and it manifests itself with the difference between the perceptions of Ron Artest and Kobe Bryant in regards to their peers on their respective teams.

Bryant has an image problem in regards to his teammates. Artest has an image problem as well, of course, but NOT in regards to his new King's teammates. His SacTown pals are paying close attention to Ron's instructions, and Artest, to say the least, has been very mouthly.

It is apparent that Bryant's Laker teammates are not listening to him, IF Kobe is actually trying to talk to them about this. Artest's teammates were essentially a ship with no rudder before Ron's arrival and were desparate for someone to point out the obvious to them. They were ready to respond, which says something about the players to begin with - they were not leaders and a bit slow in the uptake of defensive instruction as layed out by the coaches. The Lakers that you have accummulated this year to back up Kobe don't seem to be too interested in change to begin with. Kwame Brown is a lost cause; Odom is apparently happy with the contributions he gives each night; Parker isn't getting what he needs at least for defensive assignments, and if Kobe has been telling them anything at all, they do not care to listen.

This is a key point, though, for any defensive-minded team. The players have to be coachable and listen to someone they respect to improve. Memphis, Dallas,  and Indiana are successful defensive teams while not having a defensive stopper amongst them because the players they have accummulated as a whole can be instructed; while a coach with a reputation for having good defensive teams in the past (Phil Jackson) apparently can't make his new players understand the concept.

Maybe a good defensive coach starts with getting players whom he can actually reach and instruct instead of inheriting players that do not possess those skills to begin with.  

[westkoast]

This is a key point, though, for any defensive-minded team. The players have to be coachable and listen to someone they respect to improve. Memphis, Dallas,  and Indiana are successful defensive teams while not having a defensive stopper amongst them because the players they have accummulated as a whole can be instructed; while a coach with a reputation for having good defensive teams in the past (Phil Jackson) apparently can't make his new players understand the concept.

Maybe a good defensive coach starts with getting players whom he can actually reach and instruct instead of inheriting players that do not possess those skills to begin with.

Sasha and Kobe Bryant are best friends on this team.  So you can toss out the assumption that they don't care to listen to him.  I know how badly you wanted to continue to use this as an example of Big Bad Kobe getting snubbed by his teammates because of his image problem.  That is not the case.  

Kobe has a history of having problems with Shaq and vice versa.  Yet for some odd reason Shaq isn't pinned as having a image problem with teammates either.  Yes yes I know you are going to cite unnamed sources from a vague article you read during an obvious slow time for the journalists.....but Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel both have also had problems with Shaq.  Not to mention comments made by others saying Shaq has major ego problems (Kobe was included in that too).

As for Phil Jackson getting to them, he did and that is why the Lakers were at one time the 10th best defensive team in the league.  The problem is they are having mental lapses during certain games then turn around and play well on the defensive side.  What is the cause of that I am not exactly sure.  I can point out things that are not helping, like spacing in the triangle and position, but cannot pin point exactly what it is.  Apparently he did get to them or else they wouldn't be a top 10 defensive team at one time.

Ill be back to finish the rest of my post because I am about to take lunch...id love to pass up lunch for a good bball debate with ya but my stomach is getting pissy  :nod:  

[guest-koast]

This is a key point, though, for any defensive-minded team. The players have to be coachable and listen to someone they respect to improve. Memphis, Dallas, and Indiana are successful defensive teams while not having a defensive stopper amongst them because the players they have accummulated as a whole can be instructed; while a coach with a reputation for having good defensive teams in the past (Phil Jackson) apparently can't make his new players understand the concept.

Maybe a good defensive coach starts with getting players whom he can actually reach and instruct instead of inheriting players that do not possess those skills to begin with.

I agree with that.  Sometimes you get players who dont listen because their ego, they are too stoned at practice or in games (see JR Rider), or they just lack the ability to hold in defensive concepts.  You also need one or two players on the team who are not defensive stoppers per se but have some shred of defensive instinct.  Eddie Jones and Battier have that and I think that is part of the reason why they are a strong defensive ball club.

Well you can't count players out right away that are trying to learn which is what you are doing.   I know your dislike for PJ and Lakers is making you jump to conclusions here     I can tell you they are trying to learn but have only been working on his defense for half a season.  Right now they are 10x the better defensive club than they were the previous year yet still very inconsistant.  Part of that is younger players still trying to grasp defensive concepts and being asked to focus in on defense first and offense a distant second (see Sasha and Smush) that they haven't before.  Only Phil Jackson would be expected by you to turn this team into a defensive juggernaut in 60 games.   Now if they dont continue to improve and play more consistant defense next year and the last year of PJs contract then I will agree with you.  Right now though I think you are jumping to conclusions.

Memphis, Dallas, and Indiana all have also played together as a team for a few seasons.   Actually I shouldn't say Dallas because they have alot of new faces and a new coach.  Still...theyve had some time together to realize things like Eddie Jones like to push perimeter players he feels he can out muscles to the strong side block or that Dirk rotates slower on help situations so you cannot always count on that weak side block if you are outmatched in the post etc etc etc