Tim Duncan fizzle is becomming common place

[westkoast]

...and the underestimating of what Ben Wallace is doing out there goes on.

Blame it on Duncan, blame it on Pop...whatever, but I put the issue on the fact that Wallace is just being brutal to how the Spurs use Duncan in their offense. Blame the other Spurs for not getting the ball in to Duncan as well....Wallace is also leading the post season in steals.

Thats like Laker fans giving Shaq a pass for missing free throws because he takes twice as much damage to his arms and legs than Duncan ever has.  Its nothing more than a cheap excuse for him being soft the last two games.  Shaq has choked and Duncan is choking now.  He was shooting like 30% between the end of the 3rd in game 5 and all of game 6.

I wish I knew I could have used this cop out for the Lakers last year in the Finals! :rofl:

Get Duncan the ball?  He didnt do anything with it the last 5 minutes of the game.  He was getting touches then moving it away.

[JoMal]

I wish I knew I could have used this cop out for the Lakers last year in the Finals! :rofl:

What stopped you?

The same thing is happening to the Spurs' Duncan that happened to Shaq last year. But whatever you do, follow the crowd and do NOT give props to Wallace for any of this.

Oh, no. It can't be that Wallace is being that effective against both Shaq and Duncan. It has to be that Shaq and Duncan have suddenly become "soft" players.

Yeah, that makes for a better excuse.

Get Duncan the ball?  He didnt do anything with it the last 5 minutes of the game.  He was getting touches then moving it away.

um......yeah.

[westkoast]

I wish I knew I could have used this cop out for the Lakers last year in the Finals! :rofl:

What stopped you?

The same thing is happening to the Spurs' Duncan that happened to Shaq last year. But whatever you do, follow the crowd and do NOT give props to Wallace for any of this.

Oh, no. It can't be that Wallace is being that effective against both Shaq and Duncan. It has to be that Shaq and Duncan have suddenly become "soft" players.

Yeah, that makes for a better excuse.

Get Duncan the ball?  He didnt do anything with it the last 5 minutes of the game.  He was getting touches then moving it away.

um......yeah.

Duncan is the greatest player in the game and according to some "the best PF to ever play the game"....even if you dont agree with those two statements you can agree Duncan is a better player than Wallace is.  Why cant Duncan rise to the occasion?  Because hes soft and that keeps him from taking his game to the next level, where it needs to be for the Spurs to win.  When a great player misses free throws when the game is close, when he is unable to defend effectively, and is too hesitant to take it at Wallace then yes hes choking.  Theres no way getting around this.  Hes the best player on the floor on the better team.

Im not discrediting Wallace, I am discrediting Tim for getting shook and backing down.  He did this same thing against the Lakers 3 years ago.  What tough guy was guarding him then??  Surely not Wallace.

"um...yeah"  JoMaL you watched the game and saw him go to the rack strong over and over?   I must have seen a different game because I saw Tim make one strong move and the rest of the time he looked unsure of himself or tossed it away many times.

[JoMal]

Well, if we must discuss this, fine.

Ben Wallace is not the best player in the League, granted. That has been bestowed on Tim Duncan. Wallace has, however, been voted the best DEFENSIVE player in the League several times.

As has often been said, when it comes to the playoffs, better defense beats better offense. It is certainly up to the player getting upended time and again by Wallace to try to overcome that. But a seven game series, played against the same guy...with no letup....it could be we have seen the limit by Duncan and this is it.

As rick has been claiming, the game is not the same now. The League allows this type of team...Detroit, to flex and pound its way to the finals and perhaps on to a championship. Until they change the way the playoff games are called, we will see teams more apt to copy the Pistons style then the Spurs.

And if that isn't upsetting to the NBA fanbase, I don't think the just adverted chance of a potential lockout for next season was a bad idea.    

[westkoast]

The same can be said last year and three years ago?  Cuz there was no defensive players of the year guarding him then.  He is not the kind of player who gets mad and takes it to teams.  Im not talking with fouls, Im talking about going to the rack.  He doesnt need to elbow Sheed Wallace, he needs to rebound with authority.  His name is Duncan.....why isnt he dunkin?  He had missed put backs because he wont slam em down.    None of this "oh hes bruising me I better give it to Parker who cant penetrate because 8 Pistons and the coaching staff are in the lane"  

I think blame should be placed on Duncan's shoulders for not doing whatever it takes to win.   That was go at the heart of the defense until the buzzer sounds.  No one could hit the outside shot plus there was no spacing why wasnt he attacking???

IMO  Duncan is a better offensive player than Wallace is a defensive player.

[jn]

Are we talking about the Tim Duncan the two time Finals MVP who has two triple doubles in playoff series closeout games?  Plus a 31 and 9 boxscore in the closeout of the 99 finals? The Tim Duncan who in 2003 playoffs averaged more than 24 points and 15 boards?  The Tim Duncan who is averaging more than 14 boards in this series?  

wk if you would be so good as to explain the difference between and authoratative rebounding and 14 rebounds per game that would be super.

 

[JoMal]

The same can be said last year and three years ago?  Cuz there was no defensive players of the year guarding him then.  He is not the kind of player who gets mad and takes it to teams.  Im not talking with fouls, Im talking about going to the rack.  He doesnt need to elbow Sheed Wallace, he needs to rebound with authority.  His name is Duncan.....why isnt he dunkin?  He had missed put backs because he wont slam em down.    None of this "oh hes bruising me I better give it to Parker who cant penetrate because 8 Pistons and the coaching staff are in the lane"  

 

That I can't explain. He has missed some put backs that he should have just dunked, but for whatever reason he did not. His missed free throws are also hard to figure out. But what Wallace has been able to do is still a key factor.

I think blame should be placed on Duncan's shoulders for not doing whatever it takes to win.   That was go at the heart of the defense until the buzzer sounds.  No one could hit the outside shot plus there was no spacing why wasnt he attacking???

There are limits even the 'best' player in the League can reach. And going at the heart of the Detroit defense has clearly, and I can not emphasize this enough, it has clearly not been effective. Against other teams, it was fine, but tossing the ball in to Duncan and letting him face off against the Wallace's...in playoff sensitivity mode where the calls do not come like they do in the regular season anyway.... it seems you may be expecting a bit too much from him. His failures against Shaq are also noteworthy for the same reason. And it is not like the Spurs don't have other options. His failures at the line, unfortunately, are going to be his cross to bear. But he also has historically been streaky at the line, so that could change tonight.  

IMO  Duncan is a better offensive player than Wallace is a defensive player.

No, he is not. This series is proving that.

[Reality]

Whichever side of the fence one sits on for Duncas vs Detroit these past 4 games, it's a fact:

Nazr has been little or no help at all offensively.

In fact he has been a hinderance.  Many times when Duncar is doubled and either he or the Spurs guards get Nazr the ball 6 inches from the hoop, Nazr can't manage the dunk and turns it over.

Point being it would help Duncan tremedously if ButterFingers could convert.  As it stands whomever is guarding Nazr can totally cheat over onto Duncan/ get ready for rebound as Nazr requires zero attention at present.

Also, Spurs can and should outrun Detroit.  When SA plays killer D and gets the rebound and outlet quickly, they are slowing it up once they cross halfcourt.  Yes Det can run also, but SA can run better.  GNob, Barry, Parker, Bob Horry.  But nooooo, after coming across half court, we have to slow it down and look for Tim, whether he gets the ball or not.  On the plays where Tim catches it, turns around and does his 7 second analysis of the Detroit D, finally either shooting the banker or driving slowly to the hoop, its wayy too late.  Dets D has simply been able to rest, postition, everyone in the gym knows whats coming.  Det is in complete position for the defend and the D rebound.

Solution:  Once passed the ball, Duncan should immediately do what he's gonna do.  Shoot a banker, put ball on floor to drive and shoot.  Put ball on floor drive then pass.  Or simply pass out.  Whatever, do what you're gonna do offensively quickly.  It would all be good, keep Detroits D off guard.  At it stands it merely allows Detroits D to rest and postion.

Duncans not gonna get the ball?  Then Spurs O upon crossing halfcourt should immediately do whatever they are gonna do, work the ball to each other.  Don't slow the ball up, stagnate, stand around and look/wait for Duncan.  Getting into action immediately after crossing halfcourt would make Duncan a super effective Offensive rebounder.  Spurs would wear down the Pistons and win the 2nd half and game.

westkoast is entirely right about Duncan needing to go hard at BenWa.  In the Bob Horry SuperGame 5, Duncan had yet another shot blocked (ha ya right *blocked*) by BenWa.  Instead of pouting, Duncan got torked off, got his blocked shot back and went up super hard for the putback vs BenWa.  Also got the foul call.  Made it 76-75.  Duncan was all fired up from the play, pumping his fists as he walked back to the foul line.  If the refs are going to allow  banging, and they obviously are, then Duncan needs to adjust and take it very hard at BenWa.  I believe as wk does that Duncan is better on O then BenWa is on D.  That is not a diss of BenWa at all.  Simply that Duncan has tons hard O under the hoop if he wants to take it hard at Det.  We'll have to see how the refs call it tonight but if banging is allowed then Duncan needs to adjust immediately.

[westkoast]

wk if you would be so good as to explain the difference between and authoratative rebounding and 14 rebounds per game that would be super.

Just because someone gets 14 rebounds in a game does not mean the are rebounding with authority thru out.  Rebounding with authority is what Shaq does...goes up hard and with force and starts snatching balls away from anyone elsr.  Ben Wallace is also rebounding with some aggression and authority like "this is my F'in ball you bum ball players".  Perfect example of Duncan's soft rebounding at the end of the game is the Sheed put back.  Duncan did go up hard for the ball, he just jumped.  He didnt try to snatch it out of the air, he was hoping it would come to him.  He was wrong and Sheed slammed it home shutting up the crowd real quick.

JoMaL I disagree.  Great offensive players are going to beat great defensive players.  Duncan has to take it to Wallace hard and catch him off guard or get him in foul trouble.  Not expect to get good looks and take his sweet time.  Ive seen Duncan take it to Wallace a number of times and come up with a bucket.  Too bad he decided at the end of the game to play at a grandfathers pace.  Duncan needs to make the ref make the call...not sit back with that look on his face like he got lost at the bolling alley and cant find his mom.

[jn]

Congrats.  :cheers:  You have reached a level of sillines I didn't think you were capable of. This is easily the most ridiculous argument you have ever posted.  Duncan has a career playoff rebound average of 13.  Shaq's is 12.5.   Perhaps Shaq is lower because he doesn't try and get them unless he is surrounded by opposing players so people will "respect his authoritah!!" ?



 

[westkoast]

Congrats.  :cheers:  You have reached a level of sillines I didn't think you were capable of. This is easily the most ridiculous argument you have ever posted.  Duncan has a career playoff rebound average of 13.  Shaq's is 12.5.   Perhaps Shaq is lower because he doesn't try and get them unless he is surrounded by opposing players so people will "respect his authoritah!!" ?

What does their average have to do with the way in which they go up for rebounds during crunch time??  :huh:

You and I must not talking about the same thing.  Im talking about guys like Ben Wallace/Shaq who go after rebounds like a shark when their team needs them to rebound strong and how Duncan is playing soft in the paint on both ends of the floor.  He wasnt even making attempts to go after the ball on a number of plays.

[jn]

Style over substance then.

By the way, when was the last time Shaq "went up" for a rebound?  


 

[westkoast]

Style over substance then.

By the way, when was the last time Shaq "went up" for a rebound?

2002 LOL

I am speaking on old Shaq when the Lakers were still winning.

As for Duncan, he is a very good rebounder (im not saying he isnt) I just think he isnt being tough enough on the boards down the stretch.  Whether hes just soft like I think or hes too beat up like JoMaL thinks.....doesnt matter.  Hes looking mighty wussy to Big Ben right now and hes playing him even more tough because of it.

[JoMal]

JoMaL I disagree.  Great offensive players are going to beat great defensive players.  Duncan has to take it to Wallace hard and catch him off guard or get him in foul trouble.  Not expect to get good looks and take his sweet time.  Ive seen Duncan take it to Wallace a number of times and come up with a bucket.  Too bad he decided at the end of the game to play at a grandfathers pace.  Duncan needs to make the ref make the call...not sit back with that look on his face like he got lost at the bolling alley and cant find his mom.

Oh, I DO agree that great offensive players will figure out how to score regardless of who is defending them.

My point exactly, in fact.

Duncan may be a good offensive player, but he certainly is not among the best ever, while Wallace appears to be in the realm of the great defensive players of all time.

 

[westkoast]

JoMaL I disagree.  Great offensive players are going to beat great defensive players.  Duncan has to take it to Wallace hard and catch him off guard or get him in foul trouble.  Not expect to get good looks and take his sweet time.  Ive seen Duncan take it to Wallace a number of times and come up with a bucket.  Too bad he decided at the end of the game to play at a grandfathers pace.  Duncan needs to make the ref make the call...not sit back with that look on his face like he got lost at the bolling alley and cant find his mom.

Oh, I DO agree that great offensive players will figure out how to score regardless of who is defending them.

My point exactly, in fact.

Duncan may be a good offensive player, but he certainly is not among the best ever, while Wallace appears to be in the realm of the great defensive players of all time.

LOL @ bolling I just noticed that typo.  Its hard to type one handed and then trying to do it fast enough before someone comes in to tell you their mouse is broken.

I guess tonight we will see who Duncan really is.....