Individual +/- score

[ziggy]

Interesting web site I recently happened upon.
http://www.82games.com/index.htm

They rate all players on how well team does when they are on the court and how well the team does when they aren't.  Here are the top 25 in the league.
Rank Player Team On Court +/- Off Court +/- Roland Rating

1  Kidd NJN +8.3, -13.8, +22.1
2  Garnett MIN +8.8, -13.0, +21.8
3  Jefferson NJN +6.2, -9.1, +15.4
4  Cassell MIN +8.5, -6.0, +14.5
5  Collins NJN +9.3, -4.7, +14.0
6  Davis NOH +2.7, -9.8, +12.5
7  Cardinal GSW +5.9, -6.4, +12.3
8  Martin NJN +7.2, -4.1, +11.2
9  Kirilenko UTA +2.0, -9.0, +11.0
10  Foster IND +10.1, -0.1, +10.3
11  Miller SAC +9.6, -0.4, +10.0
12  O'Neal IND +7.5, -2.4, +9.9
13  Nowitzki DAL +6.2, -3.3, +9.4
14  Brown NOH +2.0, -7.4, +9.4
15  Hassell MIN +8.7, +0.1, +8.6
16  Artest IND +6.8, -1.7, +8.5
17  Nene DEN +4.9, -3.3, +8.2
18  McGrady ORL -4.1, -12.0, +7.9
19  O'Neal LAL +7.1, -0.7, +7.7
20  Divac SAC +10.5, +3.0, +7.5
21  Sprewell MIN +6.5, -0.9, +7.4
22  Francis HOU +4.2, -3.1, +7.4
23  Abdur-Rahim ATL -3.6, -10.8, +7.2
24  Jackson HOU +4.5, -2.7, +7.2
25  Boozer CLE -0.5, -7.4, +7.0
26  Miller IND +7.6, +0.6, +7.0
27  Hinrich CHI -4.1, -10.9, +6.8
28  Turkoglu SAS +10.3, +3.6, +6.7
29  Miller DEN +3.5, -3.0, +6.6
30  Butler MIA +0.8, -5.7, +6.5

Here are some well known players not on the list
Paul Pierce  -1.4, -0.3, -1.1

Scottie Pippen -21.3 -3.4 -17.9
Jalen Rose in Chicago  -17.0, -5.6, -11.4
Jalen Rose in Toronto  +0.2, -4.0, +4.2

LeBron James -3.5, -2.4, -1.1
Carmello Anthony +0.9, +4.7, -3.8

Antoine Walker +1.4, +11.0, -9.6

Ben Wallace +3.2, +1.7, +1.5
Chauncy Billups +2.9, +2.8, +0.1

Mike Dunleavy -4.6, +4.8, -9.4

Steve Francis +4.5, -3.6, +8.1
Cuttino Mobley +3.7, -0.5, +4.3
Yao Ming +3.4, +2.0, +1.5

Karl Malone +11.2, -0.8, +12.0
Shaq O'Neal +6.7, -0.7, +7.4
Devan George +5.6, -0.5, +6.0
Kobe Bryant +5.2, +0.5, +4.7
Gary Payton +4.3, +0.1, +4.1

Michael Redd -0.7, +6.8, -7.5

Drew Gooden -10.1, -0.4, -9.7

Glenn Robinson -2.2, +0.1, -2.3

Rasheed Wallace -0.5, -6.6, +6.1
Zach Randolph -2.0, -4.2, +2.2
Damon Stoudamire  -4.4, +4.0, -8.4

Kwame Brown -2.4, -7.1, +4.7
Eddie Curry  -5.4, -7.1, +1.7
Tyson Chandler  -6.7, -6.2, -0.5


The Worst of Known Players
Jalen Rose in Chicago
Antoine Walker
Mike Dunleavy
Drew Gooden
Damon Stoudamire
 

[Guest]

1 Kidd NJN +8.3, -13.8, +22.1
2 Garnett MIN +8.8, -13.0, +21.8
3 Jefferson NJN +6.2, -9.1, +15.4
4 Cassell MIN +8.5, -6.0, +14.5
5 Collins NJN +9.3, -4.7, +14.0
6 Davis NOH +2.7, -9.8, +12.5
7 Cardinal GSW +5.9, -6.4, +12.3
8 Martin NJN +7.2, -4.1, +11.2
9 Kirilenko UTA +2.0, -9.0, +11.0
10 Foster IND +10.1, -0.1, +10.3
11 Miller SAC +9.6, -0.4, +10.0
12 O'Neal IND +7.5, -2.4, +9.9
13 Nowitzki DAL +6.2, -3.3, +9.4
14 Brown NOH +2.0, -7.4, +9.4
15 Hassell MIN +8.7, +0.1, +8.6
16 Artest IND +6.8, -1.7, +8.5
17 Nene DEN +4.9, -3.3, +8.2
18 McGrady ORL -4.1, -12.0, +7.9
19 O'Neal LAL +7.1, -0.7, +7.7
20 Divac SAC +10.5, +3.0, +7.5
21 Sprewell MIN +6.5, -0.9, +7.4
22 Francis HOU +4.2, -3.1, +7.4
23 Abdur-Rahim ATL -3.6, -10.8, +7.2
24 Jackson HOU +4.5, -2.7, +7.2
25 Boozer CLE -0.5, -7.4, +7.0
26 Miller IND +7.6, +0.6, +7.0
27 Hinrich CHI -4.1, -10.9, +6.8
28 Turkoglu SAS +10.3, +3.6, +6.7
29 Miller DEN +3.5, -3.0, +6.6
30 Butler MIA +0.8, -5.7, +6.5

Here are some well known players not on the list
Paul Pierce -1.4, -0.3, -1.1
Karl Malone +11.2, -0.8, +12.0
Shaq O'Neal +6.7, -0.7, +7.4
Devan George +5.6, -0.5, +6.0
Kobe Bryant +5.2, +0.5, +4.7
Gary Payton +4.3, +0.1, +4.1

That's pretty cool -- Shaq is number 19 but also not on the list -- well, with Shaq life is always a dichotomy.  

[Randy]

Sorry, guest is Randy -- I need to remember to log into this place.

[spursfan101]

How could Two-time MVP Tim Duncan not be on that list?? :huh:  

[jn]

This is an interesting stat that basketball has started using in the last few years and of course hockey fans will recognize it.  I think it means more in hockey though, where less scoring is involved.  

 

[ziggy]

As you can see there is a couple of days difference between the 2 lists.

Randy  -  I didn't mean to miss state on Shaq.  My point with in the second group among other things was just to show the numbers for the 4 Lakers together.  I thought Malones high number was quite revealing.  I haven't watched the Lakers alot this season, but IMO the Lakers played substantially better when Malone was in the lineup, and I think these numbers bear that out.  Malone wasn't on the first list because he hadn't played enough games.  His passing, rebounding, and another lost post option to Shaq, makes Malone very valuable to the Lakers.

SF101  -  Didn't mean to leave Duncan off.  Hard to remember every player.  Here is the entire Spurs roster.

Player
 Duncan +8.5 +1.6, +6.9
 Heal +13.3, +6.4, +6.9
 Turkoglu +10.0, +3.8, +6.2
 Hart +11.4, +5.4, +6.0
 Garcia +12.2, +6.6, +5.6
 Ginobili +8.8, +3.6, +5.2
 Horry +7.8, +6.1, +1.7
 Bowen +6.4, +7.0, -0.6
 Parker +5.5, +8.5, -2.9
 Nesterovic +4.9, +9.1, -4.1
 Willis +2.5, +6.9, -4.4
 Brown +2.6, +7.2, -4.6
 Rose +2.4, +8.1, -5.7
 Ward +1.4, +7.2, -5.9
 Mercer +0.2, +8.1, -7.9
 Carter -1.1, +6.9, -8.0

No surprise on Duncan.  I was surprised with Turkoglu.  I have never been as impressed with him as others.  The Nesterovic numbers are surprising, as is the numbers for Malik Rose.

One thing about a number like this is it is dependant upon the other 4 players on the court as well.  Trenton Hassell scores high (#15 at +8.6), but no doubt that is because he plays a high % of his minutes with Cassell and Garnett.  I think the relationship between Cassell and Garnett is very revealing.  It is quite obvious that having Garnett on the floor at the same time is making Cassell a better player.  I don't think it is coincidental that as soon as he plays with Garnett that Cassell suddenly becomes and all-star.  Not only does Garnett have monster stats, but Minnesota would lose more without him in the lineup that any other team would if they lost their star, and Garnett is also the type of player who makes his teammates better.  He is clearly the MVP favorite right now.
 

[westkoast]

Nice thread.  Especially for the nerds around the board.

If only hustle and on court energy could be logged some how.  

[Derek Bodner]

Keep in mind, a player on a bad team will have a horrible +/- because, well, the team's always in the minus.  For superstars who log heavy minutes, the stat's not really all that reliable, IMO, because it has more of a reflection on the team and not the player's impact on the team.

[ziggy]

Derek,
No question the number like anything else has it's limitations.  On thing it does do is sompare the time on the court and the time off the court.  An example is Rahim is Atlanta.  During his time on the court they were -3.4, but when he was on the bench it way -10.7.  The fact that both are minus, states an obvious, the Hawks were a BAD team.  When he was on the court the were a bad team, when he was off they were horrible.

Looking at Dallas it shows a different picture
Nowitski was +8.8
Finley was +4.5
Jamison +1.5
Nash -1.6
Walker -9.6

I think some of Nash's poor number relates to who he is playing with, but Walker's I think is a clear reflection of his impact on that team.  Walker plays with the best players often, so when it is just him and not Nowitski on the floor they are a horrible team.  I think it shows that though Nowitski may not be a very good defender, Walker is one of the worst in the league.,