OT: Proud to be an American?

[Guest_Randy]

What has been done is deplorable, indefensible and beyond justification.  The abusers and those who took part need to be held accountable.

However, I'd like to point out the reverse of this as well.  The "international community" is "outraged" by these events -- and justifiably so -- but where is the outrage for what has happened to American (and other nations as well) soldiers who have been desecrated?  Who've been dragged through the streets -- their bodies stripped, mutilated, etc.  Where is the "outrage" about that? 

I am truly sickened and upset by these pictures of enemy prisoners of war -- but I'm also quite upset that worse than this can happen to American soldiers and the fact is that NOBODY in the international community seems to care.  How many countries owe the US?  Because of our strength?  Because of our economy?  And it's okay for American soldiers to be beaten, killed, mutilated, stripped and desecrated -- that's okay.  But the things that our soldiers have done have created an "outrage"?  

The fact is that American people, as a whole, will place value on the lives of the Iraqi soldiers and their rights when the International Community seems to feel that the US doesn't have the right to insist that Iraqi's respond with the same values.  This is an injustice -- and it's about time to make sure that the International Community is faced with this inequality.  That we treat ALL nations to the same standards and not just the US.

I completely agree Randy but bear in mind the hypocracy of the people of US thinking we're somehow better or more rightgeous than the people we despise and/or are fighting.

Side note, after reading some of the things the prisoners where forced to do I think the military is full of fags.  Maybe Cuban and the Maloof brothers should be made honorary Generals?

Bear in mind the hypocrisy of the rest of the world to condemn the US soldiers and remain silent while Iraqi's parade dead soldiers through the streets.  IF the US did this, the rest of the world would go ballistic -- but when the Iraqi's do it, it's silence.  That is hypocrisy.

WTF Randy? What part of "I completely agree" don't you understand?

Don't EXCUSE our behavior because someone else is doing it as well.  I don't give a rat's arse what the rest of the world is or isn't doing, the US is still what it is despite that.  Not to mention you don't hear/see all the BS the US commits because the we are 1000X better at hiding it.  I have no problem shooting first and asking questions later when it comes to one's life and safety (i.e. launching a grenade into a building because it's safer then going in there with a rifle, then later discovering 3 dead families ), but to think that only OTHERS do that because it doesn't get reported in the media is ignorance.  Put me in that situation and I would do the exact same thing, better them than me, but I'm not going to kid myself and think I'm better than the next guy.

I'm not sure that I believe that the US, as a whole, believes we are better than the rest of the world -- more fortunate, sure, stronger, absolutely but better?  I think history shows that isn't the case.  We have dealt with injustice and will continue to do that even in this case.  IMO, I don't think anyone was rushing to put this in the press -- why?  Because leaders WERE ashamed of what happened.  And I would never justify what they did -- far from it but think about this for a moment (and try to set aside your political distaste for Bush why you do it):

1)  These soldiers are young -- very young.

2)  These soldiers have seen what Iraqi soldiers and "freedom fighters" have done to their comrades by torturing, humiliating them, killing them and then desecrating their bodies.  

3)  The rest of the world (esp. the International World) response to their comrades and friends death, etc.

Now, how would you have reacted?  I, personally, do not believe it would have caused me to take the action that some of these soldiers have taken and I certainly believe that they must be held accountable but I would tell the rest of the world EXACTLY what I think of their hypocrisy -- and I would tell them that I (the US) would answer to them as soon as they answer to their own hypocrisy.  This is an internal matter -- not an external one.

[WayOutWest]

Actually Rumsfeld did tell the American people about it.

Back in February he announced an investigation into severe mistreatment and abuse of prisoners in Coalition detention facilities in Iraq. Look it up. I'm practically quoting his briefing. He did not go into details of what kind of abuse because he didn't want to compromise the Pentagon investigation. But he was quite forthright about the fact that such abuses occurred. The secretive bastard.

Then why is Bush now claiming that Rumsfeld didn't inform him?  Rumsfeld told the American people but forgot to tell his boss?

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Rumsfeld hiding it from the American people. My bad.  :huh:

As far as why President Bush didn't hear about it directly and why he doesn't hear about what his own Secretary of Defense says in a press briefing, well . . . maybe the President was too busy play Navy Seals SOCOM on his PS2 to watch that briefing.

FYI Ted,

Bush is part of the "American People".  

Goddamit!  We have a coke-snorting, drunk driving, draft dogging, documentation hiding, election stealing moron running the country.  I can't believe how much BS the "American People" are willing to swallow from Bush.  The manufacturor of the new voting machines stated publicly that he wants Bush to win.

Did anybody see "Jesus Factor"?  Bush's obsession with Jesus and the Bible is down right scary.  Bush needs to be removed from office by any means neccesary.

[WayOutWest]

I'm not sure that I believe that the US, as a whole, believes we are better than the rest of the world -- more fortunate, sure, stronger, absolutely but better?  I think history shows that isn't the case.  We have dealt with injustice and will continue to do that even in this case.  IMO, I don't think anyone was rushing to put this in the press -- why?  Because leaders WERE ashamed of what happened.  And I would never justify what they did -- far from it but think about this for a moment (and try to set aside your political distaste for Bush why you do it):

First off, I'm not political.  I don't immediately takes sides of an issue based on what party is involved.  I just call it as I see it and Bush is IMO a POS from day one.  I have some serious issues with the BS policies he's trying to implement to govern MY life, I also have issues his life long dishonesty and corporate bedfellows.  Bush is just so blatent I can't help but call BS.

Don't kid yourself Randy, the US thinks it's the good guy, I think we are the good guys but we're far from perfect.  The only reason we are the good guys is because we are less of the bad guys than our enemies.

1)  These soldiers are young -- very young.

So are our enemies soldiers, again no difference.

2)  These soldiers have seen what Iraqi soldiers and "freedom fighters" have done to their comrades by torturing, humiliating them, killing them and then desecrating their bodies.

So have our enemies.  Do I have to beat this point into your head Randy?  The US, and other enemies, has done the same thing in the past.  PLEASE don't think for a second that JUST because this is the first time the media has reported these types of atrocities that it's the FIRST time it's actually happened.  I've spoken with a guy who was there to witness similar types of acts commited against "freedom fighters" in the past.  He would get there way before the media and witnessed the acts as well as the clean up.  Again, we are not better, we just hide it better.

3)  The rest of the world (esp. the International World) response to their comrades and friends death, etc.

See point 2

Now, how would you have reacted?  I, personally, do not believe it would have caused me to take the action that some of these soldiers have taken and I certainly believe that they must be held accountable but I would tell the rest of the world EXACTLY what I think of their hypocrisy -- and I would tell them that I (the US) would answer to them as soon as they answer to their own hypocrisy.  This is an internal matter -- not an external one.

I would have put holes in peoples heads, that's how I would have reacted.  Again my point is we are NO better, I don't care what the rest of the world has to say about facing their own issues because WE DO NOT FACE OUR OWN!

You need to get outside of the country and/or get your news from non-US sources.  You are not seeing the US for what it really is, you are seeing it through gov. colored glasses.

[Guest_Randy]

First off, I'm not political. I don't immediately takes sides of an issue based on what party is involved. I just call it as I see it and Bush is IMO a POS from day one. I have some serious issues with the BS policies he's trying to implement to govern MY life, I also have issues his life long dishonesty and corporate bedfellows. Bush is just so blatent I can't help but call BS.

Oh, please -- I don't think that I've read of post of yours yet that hasn't sided itself with anything akin to the "republican" party -- and when you espouse the opposite opinion of a party on an ongoing basis -- you do have a political ideology whether you admit it or not.

I will have to address some of this further in the future -- I have to go.

[WayOutWest]

First off, I'm not political. I don't immediately takes sides of an issue based on what party is involved. I just call it as I see it and Bush is IMO a POS from day one. I have some serious issues with the BS policies he's trying to implement to govern MY life, I also have issues his life long dishonesty and corporate bedfellows. Bush is just so blatent I can't help but call BS.

Oh, please -- I don't think that I've read of post of yours yet that hasn't sided itself with anything akin to the "republican" party -- and when you espouse the opposite opinion of a party on an ongoing basis -- you do have a political ideology whether you admit it or not.

I will have to address some of this further in the future -- I have to go.

LOL!  I AM a goddam republican!

[Guest_Randy]

First off, I'm not political. I don't immediately takes sides of an issue based on what party is involved. I just call it as I see it and Bush is IMO a POS from day one. I have some serious issues with the BS policies he's trying to implement to govern MY life, I also have issues his life long dishonesty and corporate bedfellows. Bush is just so blatent I can't help but call BS.

Oh, please -- I don't think that I've read of post of yours yet that hasn't sided itself with anything akin to the "republican" party -- and when you espouse the opposite opinion of a party on an ongoing basis -- you do have a political ideology whether you admit it or not.

I will have to address some of this further in the future -- I have to go.

LOL!  I AM a goddam republican!

Hmm, perhaps of the variety of Ralph Nader or Ted Kennedy?

[Ted]

Actually Rumsfeld did tell the American people about it.

Back in February he announced an investigation into severe mistreatment and abuse of prisoners in Coalition detention facilities in Iraq. Look it up. I'm practically quoting his briefing. He did not go into details of what kind of abuse because he didn't want to compromise the Pentagon investigation. But he was quite forthright about the fact that such abuses occurred. The secretive bastard.

Then why is Bush now claiming that Rumsfeld didn't inform him?  Rumsfeld told the American people but forgot to tell his boss?

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Rumsfeld hiding it from the American people. My bad.  :huh:

As far as why President Bush didn't hear about it directly and why he doesn't hear about what his own Secretary of Defense says in a press briefing, well . . . maybe the President was too busy play Navy Seals SOCOM on his PS2 to watch that briefing.

FYI Ted,

Bush is part of the "American People".  

Goddamit!  We have a coke-snorting, drunk driving, draft dogging, documentation hiding, election stealing moron running the country.  I can't believe how much BS the "American People" are willing to swallow from Bush.  The manufacturor of the new voting machines stated publicly that he wants Bush to win.

Did anybody see "Jesus Factor"?  Bush's obsession with Jesus and the Bible is down right scary.  Bush needs to be removed from office by any means neccesary.

Geez WoW, get a grip.

We were talking about Rumsfeld not telling the American people about abuse of prisoners. All of a sudden you're slavering out of control about pot-smoking, coke-snorting.

My only point was that Rumsfeld DID tell the American people about it.

As far as Bush saying Rumsfeld didn't tell him about it . . . I'm quite perplexed about that too.

Also, be careful about saying things like "by any means necessary." You're likely to move up a few spots on the Secret Service's "threat" list.

[WayOutWest]

We were talking about Rumsfeld not telling the American people about abuse of prisoners. All of a sudden you're slavering out of control about pot-smoking, coke-snorting.

My only point was that Rumsfeld DID tell the American people about it.

As far as Bush saying Rumsfeld didn't tell him about it . . . I'm quite perplexed about that too.

Also, be careful about saying things like "by any means necessary." You're likely to move up a few spots on the Secret Service's "threat" list.

If I get into hot water I'll just say "God told me to post that", because..well..he did.
 

[Ted]

We were talking about Rumsfeld not telling the American people about abuse of prisoners. All of a sudden you're slavering out of control about pot-smoking, coke-snorting.

My only point was that Rumsfeld DID tell the American people about it.

As far as Bush saying Rumsfeld didn't tell him about it . . . I'm quite perplexed about that too.

Also, be careful about saying things like "by any means necessary." You're likely to move up a few spots on the Secret Service's "threat" list.

If I get into hot water I'll just say "God told me to post that", because..well..he did.

Well, with this President, that just may work.

[gaither]

The whole thing sickens me. Reports of abuse were circulating as early as last May and no one intervened. One year later, the military and our government leaders want to act like this is the first they heard of this. Despicable liars!

I particularly loved Bush's comments about this kind of behavior "not being us"...well it damn sure was us. The soldiers that did this might not have been the best example of Americans, but they were Americans. They represent the rest of Americans in this war and this occupation. Little wonder the world thinks we are a bunch of hypocritical imperialists. That's exactly how our government has been acting this past 1-1/2 years.

[WayOutWest]

The whole thing sickens me. Reports of abuse were circulating as early as last May and no one intervened. One year later, the military and our government leaders want to act like this is the first they heard of this. Despicable liars!

I particularly loved Bush's comments about this kind of behavior "not being us"...well it damn sure was us. The soldiers that did this might not have been the best example of Americans, but they were Americans. They represent the rest of Americans in this war and this occupation. Little wonder the world thinks we are a bunch of hypocritical imperialists. That's exactly how our government has been acting this past 1-1/2 years.

We are hypocrites, some of us just don't want to admit it.

I remember the story from the BBC about a UK Muslin who told of these types of abuses and eveyone just brushed it off.

[Guest_Randy]

The whole thing sickens me. Reports of abuse were circulating as early as last May and no one intervened. One year later, the military and our government leaders want to act like this is the first they heard of this. Despicable liars!

I particularly loved Bush's comments about this kind of behavior "not being us"...well it damn sure was us. The soldiers that did this might not have been the best example of Americans, but they were Americans. They represent the rest of Americans in this war and this occupation. Little wonder the world thinks we are a bunch of hypocritical imperialists. That's exactly how our government has been acting this past 1-1/2 years.

Actually, my understanding is that the investigation began into these events at the beginning of January -- in fact, the pictures and report that the media released was actually the Army's investigation report, not their own fact findings.  

Is it a shame it happened?  Absolutely!  Should the soldiers be punished?  Absolutely -- to the greatest letter of the law.  

Should America act like every soldier over there is involved?  No.  Should we let the rest of the world berate us?  No.  As soon as the international community reacts to what has happened to our soldiers, then I will care what they say about our treatment of POW's.  I will care about our treatment of POW's but I just won't care at all what they think about it.  And if they have too big a problem with it, I'd begin to write down EVERY country that wants to ride a high horse and the next time they come begging the US for support, I'd tell them what they can do with their request.

Right now, this presents a HUGE safety issue for our soldiers and the International Community is just making it worse by responding this way.  If they want to respond to this, then they make a critical address to the treatment in BOTH directions -- not just one.  But they are unwilling to do that because they don't want to take a stand that is unpopular and take a chance of making Muslim terrorists focus on them.

[JoMal]

Our so-called “exit” strategy just took a u-turn.

It is one thing to invade another country under completely false pretenses, then commit our best and our youngest to sacrifice their lives in the most inhospitable country imaginable. But any country invaded is going to despise the occupiers. That is to be expected. For the Bush administration to continuously compromise itself by forcing this “We are the good guys bringing you democracy” crap to the Iraqi people as they throw rocks at us and shoot us and blow us up and kidnap us to then murder and desecrate the bodies of civilian American workers while all the while we are shooting them one minute then handing them a bundle of food the next…..

All that time up to now trying to accomplish something that never was going to happen anyway, then the prisoner abuse scandal breaks. Now that exit strategy is going to look like a big time retreat on our part and they are going to celebrate their “victory” as we roll out of their country looking like we have our tails safely tucked between our legs.

Bush personally has destroyed all the worldwide sympathy generated from 9/11, isolating the US and creating more enemies then this country has ever had before. Did someone mention US arrogance?