Lets hear it for JImmy Rollins and Curtis Granderson

[Reality]

Any truth to the "A-Rod for MVP based on a historic season" rumors?

    Jose Canseco said in his next book he might give the goods on A-Rod.
*they all use them, I'm not singling out ARod.  Just making point that a lot of these incredible stats are chemical aided.

To me the guy who has a legit 600 homers soon will be Ken Griffey Jr.

[rickortreat]

I really don't get the steroid bit-  it doesn't help players see any better all it does is make them stronger than they would be otherwise.

How much of an advantage is that to a ball player facing a pitcher throwing 90+?

SO before you start putting astericks next to the names of ballplayers who you KNOW FOR SURE used performance enhancing drugs, shouldn't there be a study to see how much of a difference it really makes?

A case in point- there used to be all kinds of stories about people using "juiced bats" - putting cork in the middle to "give the bat a bit more spring"  Well, mythbusters proved that the cork bat was weaker and could not hit the ball as far as a solid wood one! 

For all you know, using steroids may make them stronger, but may impair them in other ways, making them LESS effective than they might otherwise be.

Steroids won't make a non-athlete into a great one. It won't turn my scrawny nephew into someone who I wouldn't worry about getting hurt playing high school football.  Using them appears to make some people mentally deficient and subject to serious health problems.

[ziggy]

I really don't get the steroid bit-  it doesn't help players see any better all it does is make them stronger than they would be otherwise.

How much of an advantage is that to a ball player facing a pitcher throwing 90+?

SO before you start putting astericks next to the names of ballplayers who you KNOW FOR SURE used performance enhancing drugs, shouldn't there be a study to see how much of a difference it really makes?

A case in point- there used to be all kinds of stories about people using "juiced bats" - putting cork in the middle to "give the bat a bit more spring"  Well, mythbusters proved that the cork bat was weaker and could not hit the ball as far as a solid wood one! 

For all you know, using steroids may make them stronger, but may impair them in other ways, making them LESS effective than they might otherwise be.

Steroids won't make a non-athlete into a great one. It won't turn my scrawny nephew into someone who I wouldn't worry about getting hurt playing high school football.  Using them appears to make some people mentally deficient and subject to serious health problems.

Barry Bonds is the absolute poster boy to prove the steroids helps dramatically.  There is a huge number of records that shows that a players performance steadily declines after the age of 32.  A player at 36, will produce 25-30% less than that same player did at 28, which is the typical age of peak performance.  At age 28 Bonds hit 46 HR, which was the most he hit in any one season prior to his aggressive use of steroids.  At age 36, you would expect a player like Bonds to hit about 32 HR, and he hit 73, 27 more than his peak season, and 37 some the what you would have predicted.

How about Mark McGwire.  At 28 he hit 42 hr.  At 34 you would expect him to hit 32, about 10 less than his peak, yet at 34 he hit 70, 38 more than you would have expected.

At 28-29 Micky Mantle hit an average of 47 hr.  At 35-36 he averaged 20.
At 28-29 Willie Mays hit an average of 32 hr.  At 36-37 he averaged 22.
At 28-29-30 Frank Robinson hit an average of 37 hr.  At 35-36-37 he averaged 26.
At 28 Harmon Killerbrew hit 49 hr, at 36 he hit 26.
If you want I can give 30 more players just like these 4.  Show me any other players like Bonds, and McGwire, and in almost all cases they have been linked to or are known users of steroids.

I think it very obvious that steroids help you increase strength, which allows you to hit the ball harder and farther, and it allows you to come back from injuries faster, and allows you to recover from intense training faster.

[Reality]

would you guys tell me where blown saves % in postseason lifetime are recorded?
Trevor Hoffman.

sorry for the hijack.

[rickortreat]

Ziggy, you can't compare players in the 50's with modern players, with the advancements in training, nutrition and medicine.

As time has gone on players have lasted longer and longer playing at a very high level even near the end of their careers.  Mike Schmidt, who had 548 Homers, only tailed off in the last two years of his career.  In his 16th season he had 35 home runs and batted .293.  In his 18th season, Willie Stargell had 32 homers and batted .281.  Hank Aaron hit 40 homers and batted over .300 in his 19th season. 

Barry Bonds hit 45 home runs and batted 362 in his 18th season.  Since then he's only hit 26 and 28 homers, and a season where he only had 5. 

I don't see anything so amazing about Bonds in the context of these players, unless you're saying Aaron, Stargell, and Schmidt were juicing too!

[Derek Bodner]

I don't see anything so amazing about Bonds in the context of these players, unless you're saying Aaron, Stargell, and Schmidt were juicing too!

Huh? 

Mike Schmidt's best year, power wise, was when he was 30 (48 HR's and 121 RBI).  During his 34-38 playing days he averaged 35 HR/year and 107 RBI/year.  There's a dropoff. 

By contrast, Bonds had his best year at the age of 36.  Not only that, it was far and away his best year.  His 73 home runs were 24 more than his previous best.

Players don't do that.  None of the players you mentioned had far and away their best years in their mid 30's.  No, schmidt didn't trail off to the point of uselessness in his mid 30's.  But that's not what's being argued.  Bonds had far and away his best years after 35.  None of those guys mentioned did.

Bonds went from a mid 30's home run guy in his late 20's to a 70 home run guy at 36.  To admit that he used steroids, but that it didn't help him, is absurd.

[Reality]

I really don't get the steroid bit-  it doesn't help players see any better all it does is make them stronger than they would be otherwise.

How much of an advantage is that to a ball player facing a pitcher throwing 90+? 

Guy with talent to put bat on ball hits flyball to deep outfield.  It's an out.
Same guy HGH-roids up and ball travels 20 more feet for an HR.  It's a huge advantage.

Also in recovery.  Repetetive motions of baseball players had/has all of them complaining of aches and pains especially at the end of the season with no days off in between.  Roids-HGH have long been known to help the recovery time.  Again, huge advantage.

[JoMal]

Before vilifying all the possible hitters who may or may not be enhancing their batting feats in their later years by performance-enhancing drugs, you might also consider that the pitchers they are going against are not excluded from steroid use either.

If both are doing it, where does the outrage line get crossed? Recently, there have been some hefty forty year old pitching performances as well as late-career hitting feats. And while steroids does nothing to alter the wiggle of a pitch, neither does it affect the swing of the bat. But it strengthens the user beyond the norm so he can utilize and  maximize his other skills.

[Reality]

But of course Barroid didn't.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-jones-dopingrun&prov=ap&type=lgns

Marion Jones admitted using steroids before the 2000 Olympics in a recent letter to close family and friends, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

Jones, a triple gold medalist in Sydney, said she took "the clear" for two years, beginning in 1999, and that she got it from former coach Trevor Graham, the newspaper reported. Graham told her it was flaxseed oil.

"The clear" is a performance-enhancing drug linked to BALCO, the lab at the center of a federal steroids investigation. Until now, Jones had steadfastly denied she ever took any kind of performance-enhancing drugs.

Jones also said she will plead guilty Friday in New York to two counts of lying to federal agents about her drug use and an unrelated financial matter, the Post reported.

"I want to apologize for all of this," the newspaper reported, quoting a person who received a copy of Jones' letter and read it to the paper. "I am sorry for disappointing you all in so many ways."

[Reality]

And while steroids does nothing to alter the wiggle of a pitch, neither does it affect the swing of the bat.

Stronger, quicker muscles = more bat speed = ball travels further.
Pitchers i would say the same, more ball mph, more wiggle.

Recovery time from muscle soreness much better but both, but especially pitchers.
I think indeed Roger Clemens used the Balco cream or similiar.  Would not surprise me if Curt Schill did also.  Schills trying to discredit Canseco to the Senate was lame.  Actually the entire hearings were lame.  What are corrupt politicians supposed to hold as to moral compass with corrupt business MLB people.  

I did not touch that woman.

[rickortreat]

Ha!  Excellent point Reality.  This is why congressional investigations never are about the truth! Instead, they are about the illusion that they are responsive to the people.  But they never come to any conclusions, and the problems are never solved, because they like things the way they are, and those who benefit from current conditions, want things to stay the way they are, and use their power and influence to ensure that the same things continue to occur.

This is why the Republican Leadership is terrified of Ron Paul.  He is actually an honest man in politics, true to the philosophy of the Republican party, and true to the constitution of the US.  The Republicans would rather loose the White House then let Ron Paul get in!

The Republican party is hard at work, trying to change the laws in various states primaries, to prevent non-Republicans from voting in their primaries- thus forcing any independents or Democrats who want to support Paul to change their affiliation before hand.  I am more of a Democrat than a Republican, but I am more of an American who believes in the Constitution, and I would rather have Ron Paul for President than any other Democratic or Republican candidate.

Everyone tries to discount Ron or say that he can't win, but he has raised more money than John McCain.  Money talks and the people who are sending money to Ron aren't special interests.  They are the people who need to be PROTECTED from the evil machinations of the special interests.  Both the Democratic and Republican party are in bed with special interests, which is why we the people constantly get the short end of the stick!

   

[Derek Bodner]

oh jesus.  This is NOT a political thread.