Author Topic: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?  (Read 2799 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2007, 01:28:41 PM »
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And maybe while you are at it you can ignore the intentional fouls at the end otherwise the Cavs would have had more FTs.   And less fouls.

Would YOU ignore them, if the other way around? You have never shown an inclination to, so let's cut that BS out right now.  

When trying to use numbers to back up a point...yes, I ignore obvious things that skew the results.

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Or maybe you could ignore the inconsistancy of what is an offensive foul on one end of the court negating a basket or and1 but giving the and1 on the other end of the court.  Even Van Gundy saw the inconsistancy in THAT!


Please, of all people, you should never invoke a call about inconsistancy. Calls for consistancy regarding referreeing has never been highly noticed in any of your posts. As Skandery pointed out, why did you not mention Van Gundy's comments about the so-called continuation foul that favored Parker? Little things like that might help my reading comprehension that you so helpfully would like to improve.

I didn't volunteer that info but I address Skander's post on the subject.  If you would like to bring up any additional SPECIFIC examples I would be happy to discuss those also.  But if you entire contribution is to attack the poster then I will tire of this exercise and let it go.


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Maybe you could get better reading comprehension and see that I didn't whine about the refs but pointed out that in the spirit of consistancy there shouldn't have been a whistle at the end.

Oh, really?

The refs were already giving the benefit of the doubt to the Cavs.

Did I not copy that statement of yours correctly? Please, use the "edit" mode to correct it if there was any misreading or "incomprehension" on my part.

The incomprehension came when you isolated one sentence...and failed to read the intention in my mind.  Or see my facial expression and body language.  You shouldn't read with your eyes closed.   ;)



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Maybe if the Kings ever had a post presence you would understand watching a game where your big man is called for a touch foul in the lane while constantly trying to shoot with a couple players hanging on him.

We played the Lakers yearly for several seasons in the playoffs. We hacked the hell out of Shaq. What happens to Duncan is hardly in the same league as what we did (and others, including the Spurs) to derail O'Neal. The difference was that Shaq more or less accepted the banging. I guess weetle Timmy and his whiney ref-baiting requires more help.

Really...Shaq just took it?  I remember several times when Shaq would complain after losses that he took much more of a beating than he was allowed to dish out.  I don't recall ever seeing Duncan comment in the press. 

And my comment on the consistancy still stands...if what Duncan did on that play warrants a foul then why didn't Z or Varejao get called for the same contact on the other end?  Because Z is a bigger star that Duncan?

Again, bring up  specific plays.  Let's discuss the officiating.  Let's discuss the game.

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All of my "whining" as you like to call it is targeted at CONSISTANCY.
 

Lurker, then SOUND LIKE THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO!!!

For crying out loud, reread YOUR OWN posts OBJECTIVELY and then come back here and talk about how you are actually arguing for "consistency".

I did read it.  I called for the Cavs to be called for the same pushing in the post as Duncan was called for.  I called for consistancy in when an offensive player goes to the hole and initiates contact.

As for objectivity...bring me an example where the Spurs got a favorable call and the Cavs with a similar situation got a different call.  We can discuss it.  Objectivity does not mean that I have to provide the arguments for the other side.

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And I don't care if you consistantly call touch fouls or go by the old "no blood, no foul" rule.  Just call the same game on both ends of the court.  Either call it an offensive foul EVERY time the offensive player initiates contact, a no-call, or a defensive foul.  But call it the same for all 10 players on the court.

Non Spurs fans? Non-Cavelier fans?

What is your opinion about how fair the games have been called?

My take, in general, has been that the Spurs get away with more then the Cavs do and provide the majority of uncalled contact.

My take is that the officiating has been, IN GENERAL, very balanced.

Also my take is that if the "majority of uncalled contact" were being generated by the team you are rooting for then you would call it solid aggressive basketball.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2007, 02:38:16 PM »
I didn't volunteer that info but I address Skander's post on the subject.  If you would like to bring up any additional SPECIFIC examples I would be happy to discuss those also.  But if you entire contribution is to attack the poster then I will tire of this exercise and let it go.

Lurker, it is completely pointless to bring up SPECIFIC examples unless you address the discrepancies for BOTH teams in the SAME post. That is the issue I wish to address. Otherwise, you are just rattling off examples that start to appear rather unobjective. This is also a good reason to avoid mentioning specific plays, because it would require analyzing the entire game for that purpose alone and frankly, this series is boring enough without having to sit through these games twice.   

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The incomprehension came when you isolated one sentence...and failed to read the intention in my mind.  Or see my facial expression and body language.  You shouldn't read with your eyes closed.   ;)

That does not address what you said at all, Lurker. Your "intent", apparently, was quite Freudian. ::)

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Really...Shaq just took it?  I remember several times when Shaq would complain after losses that he took much more of a beating than he was allowed to dish out.  I don't recall ever seeing Duncan comment in the press. 

But during the game? How does Tim deal with it during the games? Does he compare with Shaq then? Talk about reading comprehension? Did you not know I meant how they acted during the games? Eyes wide what????

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And my comment on the consistancy still stands...if what Duncan did on that play warrants a foul then why didn't Z or Varejao get called for the same contact on the other end?  Because Z is a bigger star that Duncan?

Okay, please help me comprehend your personal intent here. Duncan has been abused by the refs in all three games so far. According to you, he apparently plays the center/forward position without ever fouling and the hardnosed refs have it "out" for his superstar butt while allowing his inept non-superstar opponents, Ilgauskas, and Varejao virtually a free rein to clobber Duncan with no fears of reprisals.

This has resulted in these stats for the three games:

Game 1, Duncan had 2 fouls called on him, while he went to the line twice; Igauskas had two fouls called on him and he never went to the foul line; Varejao had three fouls called on him and he had seven free throws.

Game 2, D had 4 fouls and 7 FT's; I had 3 fouls and zero FT's; V had 4 fouls and 7 FT's.

Game 3, D had 4 fouls and 2 FT's; I had 2 fouls and attempted one FT; V had 1 foul and zero FT's.

So, Duncan was apparently NOT fouling either Ilgauskas nor Varejao much in the last game, at least not in penalty or shooting situations.

From the games stats, it would appear much more likely that neither team's big people are getting much in the way of calls, and I did not even look at the Gooden/Marshall or the Oberto/Horry contributions to all this.

I don't know, what exacly are you trying to argue here about fairness again? Clearly I don't "comprehend" your arguement in favor of discrepancies against Duncan here.

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Again, bring up  specific plays.  Let's discuss the officiating.  Let's discuss the game.

It is this love affair you have with citing "specific plays" that is burying you under a S-load of data that is impossible to support unless every, single possession is analyzed objectively and from every angle. This is why is makes little sense, because by the end of the game, do individual plays have any bearing on how fair the game was called or its outcome? The Spurs won all three. Did the refereeing hinder SA from quadrupling the differential? Are you concerned with the betting line? What, exactly, is the big deal about one or two plays per game NOT going in the Spurs favor, and what is the point of citing them without also citing plays that DID go in their favor.

I mean, if you truly are interested in my understanding what your intent was in writing what you did, perhaps a few contrary examples on your part to begin with would have shaken things lose in my dense mind.

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I did read it.  I called for the Cavs to be called for the same pushing in the post as Duncan was called for.  I called for consistancy in when an offensive player goes to the hole and initiates contact.

As for objectivity...bring me an example where the Spurs got a favorable call and the Cavs with a similar situation got a different call.  We can discuss it.  Objectivity does not mean that I have to provide the arguments for the other side.

No Cav player was called for an offensive foul in this game? LeBron certainly might argue about that. But how did the Cavs big men end up with any fouls on them, then? What is it I am missing from your "unbiased" and call for the same favorable calls on both sides arguement? Why are the statistician padding the box score with bogus fouls on Cavs players? Gooden did not garner six fouls last night? Maybe we should investigate that issue instead.

You see, Lurker, not to lecture you about how you should post, but if you ONLY bring up these so-called biased calls on specific plays, that all of your examples, just by coincidence, go against the Spurs and not the other way around, it just sounds like you are being....unobjective.

Am I not comprehending your intend again? Dang! My one flaw.

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My take is that the officiating has been, IN GENERAL, very balanced.

That's a relief!!! For a second there, I thought it was me.

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Also my take is that if the "majority of uncalled contact" were being generated by the team you are rooting for then you would call it solid aggressive basketball.

Spoken by a fan of the team that has Bruce "majority of uncalled contact' Bowen on it.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Reality

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2007, 02:59:55 PM »
The Spurs did not have a foul to give.

If Lebron did not have contol of the ball (already gathered) and he did not start the customary motion that preceeds his try for goal, then it would be a penalty situation 1+1.

That point can be argued.
At issue is did Bowen grab Lebron before he gathered the ball?

Here is what i see.  Bowen grabs with his right hand and clutches at Lebrons right hand/wrist.  LeBron has not yet released ball towoards the floor.  Bam!  That could have and should have been called foul right there.  Instead, Lebron muscles his right arm thru Bowens clutch and procedes stepping to his (Lebrons) left.  He puts the ball on the floor with his left hand as he is stepping left.  Now Bowen grabs at Lebrons r shoulder and elbow with his (Bowens) left hand.  This occurs just as ball is bouncing back from floor into Lebrons left palm.  Does that constitute "already gathered"?  Perhaps.  I'm gonna wait till ref in training sees it on tape.  He also can discuss stuff with upline NBA trainer refs.

So Bowen almost, or perhaps did do a completely amatuerish attempt at a clear intentional foul.  Or did he?
The initial clutch grab with his right hand was well before Lebron had gathered.  So technically, Bowen did foul before any gather.

Was refs motive to burn Lebron, or was he actually cutting Lebron a break and making sure he got the 3 pt attempt off?  I think ref did the best he could and let it go on as he did.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 03:08:20 PM by Reality »

Offline Lurker

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2007, 03:02:35 PM »
JoMal I would quote you but it makes the posts too long.   ;)


If you don't/can't bring specific examples then all I can base your objections on is the fact that 1) you are arguing for arguments sake, 2) you really can't find any examples to support your position, or 3) you just don't like my posting.  I'll bet on #3.   ;D


Instead you want me to find instances that contradict my own points.  Why should I?  I provided instances that supported my position.  I discussed the instance that Skander brought up which contradicts my stance.  I didn't call him names or vilify his posting.  I responded with my opinion and take on it.


Also posting foul statistics doesn't prove anything.  And this example is just for you....

If Bowen grabs LeBron's jersey 10 times but is called for anly one foul while LeBron grabs Bowen's jersey only once and is called for it then by stats it is a very fairly called game.  One foul on each player.

In short: 10 violations, 1 foul = 1 violation, 1 foul under your method of analysis.

Also your analysis of Duncan vs Ilgauskas fails to take into account the number of possessions in the paint.  My guess would be that Duncan operates in the paint with more touches than Cleveland's entire contingent of big men combined.

It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2007, 03:16:11 PM »
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I did read it.  I called for the Cavs to be called for the same pushing in the post as Duncan was called for.  I called for consistancy in when an offensive player goes to the hole and initiates contact.

As for objectivity...bring me an example where the Spurs got a favorable call and the Cavs with a similar situation got a different call.  We can discuss it.  Objectivity does not mean that I have to provide the arguments for the other side.

No Cav player was called for an offensive foul in this game? LeBron certainly might argue about that. But how did the Cavs big men end up with any fouls on them, then? What is it I am missing from your "unbiased" and call for the same favorable calls on both sides arguement? Why are the statistician padding the box score with bogus fouls on Cavs players? Gooden did not garner six fouls last night? Maybe we should investigate that issue instead.

Am I not comprehending your intend again? Dang! My one flaw.


This part I had to quote. 

If you want to be so big on comprehension show me where I said there were no offensive fouls on the Cavs?

Where did I say that there was or was not padding of calls?

Where did I say that there should have been no calls on the Spurs?

See now you are putting words into my posts that are not there.  My point is that the same level of calls/non-calls for physical play should be used on both ends of the court.  And I gave two examples that supported my argument.  Of course they are both in the Spurs favor...that is who I follow.  But I'm not so biased as too ignore EVIDENCE to the contrary. 

So far you have not provided any evidence...real or anecdotal...to say otherwise.  If you can come back with Finley took 5 steps on that layup but Gibson was called for travelling with 3 steps then I would agree that the Spurs benefitted.  Also I would say that the refs will always miss calls, a rookie won't get that call, that I am sure it was a makeup call for when _____ got called for stepping on the endline, and every other excuse that I can't think of right now.  And agree with whoever posts that evidence that the refs should be more consistant in the way they call the game.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2007, 03:45:02 PM »
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If you don't/can't bring specific examples then all I can base your objections on is the fact that 1) you are arguing for arguments sake, 2) you really can't find any examples to support your position, or 3) you just don't like my posting.  I'll bet on #3.


Actually, if it has not occurred to you, at issue here is that we are arguing two different things, which clearly points to (3) in your above commentary. Because under (1), while is is certainly true at times on my part, it does not apply here; and (2) since my arguement has absolutely nothing to do with the foul-calling in this or any other game in the series, I have completely passed on doing this because I am not arguing with you about specific calls on specific plays so there is no point in my bring up examples on something I could care less about. So stop asking.

No, what I am "discussing" with you is that the way you presented your arguement did not fulfill my expectations on the issue.

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Instead you want me to find instances that contradict my own points.  Why should I?

While that might be fun, I never asked for you to do that and I never would. 

Now.

You should have been more unbiased in your first posting if your real intent was to show inconsistent foul calling by the refs in this series, or this game. Instead, you just brought up what you perceived as inconsistent foul calling against only the Spurs, which your examples only amplified .

Am I typing in a vacuum here?


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I provided instances that supported my position.  I discussed the instance that Skander brought up which contradicts my stance.  I didn't call him names or vilify his posting.  I responded with my opinion and take on it.

Sorry if you think I am calling you names. By the way, for future avoidance, what were they?

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Also posting foul statistics doesn't prove anything.  And this example is just for you....

If Bowen grabs LeBron's jersey 10 times but is called for anly one foul while LeBron grabs Bowen's jersey only once and is called for it then by stats it is a very fairly called game.  One foul on each player.

In short: 10 violations, 1 foul = 1 violation, 1 foul under your method of analysis.

MY method of analysis? I think that was just YOU doing some kind of voodoo analysis that I would never consider.

But honestly, where is all this going? How much more help do you expect for the Spurs to receive?

Honestly, I would like to know.

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Also your analysis of Duncan vs Ilgauskas fails to take into account the number of possessions in the paint.  My guess would be that Duncan operates in the paint with more touches than Cleveland's entire contingent of big men combined.

Lurker, my analysis does not take into account one hell of a lot more then just the number of possessions in the paint.

Let's just call that analysis an homage to you.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Lurker

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2007, 03:51:32 PM »
Let's just call that an homage to you.



That's all I was waiting for...you to give homage to a superior poster.    :D :D :D
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2007, 04:16:43 PM »
Let's just call that an homage to you.


That's all I was waiting for...you to give homage to a superior poster.    :D :D :D

Freely admitted.

You are a beacon of consistency, Lurker.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

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Re: How many FT shots should Lebron have rec'd?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2007, 04:24:39 PM »
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This part I had to quote. 

If you want to be so big on comprehension show me where I said there were no offensive fouls on the Cavs?

Where did I say that there was or was not padding of calls?

Where did I say that there should have been no calls on the Spurs?

Sorry, but this was just too good to pass up as well.

That is what is called "irony", Lurker. It is called playing the game of contradiction. I thought you might appreciate it more, considering.......

But more to the point, when you stated:

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I called for the Cavs to be called for the same pushing in the post as Duncan was called for.  I called for consistancy in when an offensive player goes to the hole and initiates contact.

....i did take that as you believing that the Cavs were not being called for offensive fouls, the Spurs being called for more then their share, and the Cav not getting the refs' attention for the same violations. Call it "creative interpretation" on my part for thinking you actually MEANT what you were posting.



« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 04:26:45 PM by JoMal »
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."