Anyone still think Shaq is running out of gas?

[guest-koast]

Since we've had a few debates going on about Shaq and the Heat I thought that tonights game would be a nice follow up to the debates.  One of those being the amount of gas Shaq is going to have left and his conditioning over the last 3 seasons.  Once again Shaq is out, this time with pain on the other side of his body from game one.  According to the Heat he is currently playing at 80% and only played 26 minutes in a playoff game.  Following up Game 1's light minutes.  Do you think its because of his conditioning (or lack of) or is Shaq just having bad luck??

The other debate brought up inside the Nash MVP thread discussing if Shaq should have been the MVP there was talk of the Heat having a much more crappy team than the Suns.  The Heat have yet to lose a playoff game, Wade scores 31 and 15 tonight to squeak out a playoff win, everyone pitched in and Shaq hasnt been healthy since the start of the playoffs.  Really are the Heat THAT BAD without Shaq???

[jn]

Tough to say.   How old is Shaq now?  I saw remarkable stat a couple years ago about how 34 is the magic age for star centers to decline.  RAPIDLY decline, in fact.  If I recall correctly the Admiral was the only one on the list who continued playing well after that age.  Dream, Ewing and others just plain tanked. Isn't Shaq pushing that age?

My point is that you could be right but then again, it could be that Shaq's slowing down is just a natural function of age and size.  Sometimes big guys, even ones who take good care of their bodies just hit a wall.  

[Reality]

Anyone think prior to JOneal ramming Shaqs thigh he was looking fine?

jn that is an interesting age thing.  However in 2000+ we are seeing athletes in all the major sports play well longer then previous eras.

Roger Clemons
Ricky Henderson

Some Hockey dude who was on the Dallas Stars cup.
Ditto Anaheim Mighty Duck dude 40+

Deke MuTumble

[westkoast]

Anyone think prior to JOneal ramming Shaqs thigh he was looking fine?

jn that is an interesting age thing.  However in 2000+ we are seeing athletes in all the major sports play well longer then previous eras.

Roger Clemons
Ricky Henderson

Some Hockey dude who was on the Dallas Stars cup.
Ditto Anaheim Mighty Duck dude 40+

Deke MuTumble

Shaq has been a "lawn mower' since the begging of the playoffs.  Instead of his normal diesel truck big rig self.  I forget what was bugging him last night but it was the opposite side of the body from game 1.

Jn...Age def has a hand in this.  I believe Shaq is 33 this year (someone correct me because im not sure) and the beating he takes would cripple some players by the time they hit that age.  However, I think that the lack of conditioning sped up the process of him getting to the point where Ewing and Keem were at.  That extra weight he gained put an even bigger strain on joints/bones that were already weakning because of age.  I also think not working out hard in the offseason for a few years then really pushing the issue this past summer had some negative effects.  Really if you think about how large Shaq is compared to Ewing and Hakeem its amazing hes still can play at a high lvl only being a few years younger than when they took a dive.  IMO if he was good about conditioning he may very well have played well past the cut off age.

Malone is a good example to bring up.  He is 40+ and still would be effective if he played this year.  Last year we saw how good of shape he was really in at 40.  He was outrunning Lakers half his age!!  Horry is up there also and hes playing very well for the Spurs also.  Bad back and all.

[jn]

Shaq's relative lack of injuries for a man of his size has been one of the remarkable things about him.   I've wondered aloud on this board when we would really start to see some these types of injuries.  Given his gimungousness and lack of conditioning he was probably just plain due.

When talking about a how players are now playing well at advanced ages perhaps hockey players should be excluded.  Prior to 2000 there have been a number of NHL players who were effective in their late 30's and beyond.  Gordie Howe is the most obvious one, but there is also Guy Lafleur of Montreal who made a solid comeback at age 46 and some other old schoolers like Maurice Richard who were very solid even on the brink of 40.  Those guys were not the product of improved training techniques, they were just tough as nails.  

[JoMal]

Tough to say.   How old is Shaq now?  I saw remarkable stat a couple years ago about how 34 is the magic age for star centers to decline.  RAPIDLY decline, in fact.  If I recall correctly the Admiral was the only one on the list who continued playing well after that age.  Dream, Ewing and others just plain tanked. Isn't Shaq pushing that age?

My point is that you could be right but then again, it could be that Shaq's slowing down is just a natural function of age and size.  Sometimes big guys, even ones who take good care of their bodies just hit a wall.

Anyone here remember Kareem Abdul Jabber??

Seems like he was doing pretty well at 7'2" well into his forties.

Wilt Chamberlain? If he wanted to, he could have dunked the entire opposing team with ease at fifty, if he wasn't off playing volleyball then.

Mystery-aged Vlade Divac managed somehow to stay competitive until.....at least 36 or 40.  

Shaq may or may not be breaking down slowly. I thought his toes were going to put him into pre-mature retirement back several years ago, but he came back after having his feet operated on. But he is just a big man who plays a game that requires constant pounding on his legs. So, yeah, it might mean he can't do what he used to do.

As for the rest of the heat being competitive, that is an interesting point. If Shaq were out, could that team really compete for a title?

My initial thought is no.

[westkoast]

Tough to say.   How old is Shaq now?  I saw remarkable stat a couple years ago about how 34 is the magic age for star centers to decline.  RAPIDLY decline, in fact.  If I recall correctly the Admiral was the only one on the list who continued playing well after that age.  Dream, Ewing and others just plain tanked. Isn't Shaq pushing that age?

My point is that you could be right but then again, it could be that Shaq's slowing down is just a natural function of age and size.  Sometimes big guys, even ones who take good care of their bodies just hit a wall.

Anyone here remember Kareem Abdul Jabber??

Seems like he was doing pretty well at 7'2" well into his forties.

Wilt Chamberlain? If he wanted to, he could have dunked the entire opposing team with ease at fifty, if he wasn't off playing volleyball then.

Mystery-aged Vlade Divac managed somehow to stay competitive until.....at least 36 or 40.  

Shaq may or may not be breaking down slowly. I thought his toes were going to put him into pre-mature retirement back several years ago, but he came back after having his feet operated on. But he is just a big man who plays a game that requires constant pounding on his legs. So, yeah, it might mean he can't do what he used to do.

As for the rest of the heat being competitive, that is an interesting point. If Shaq were out, could that team really compete for a title?

I initial thought is no.

They wouldnt be competeting for a title run......but neither would the Suns this year.  If the heat were so bad how are they undefeated in the playoffs with Shaq playing such limited minutes and being less than 80-90%?  Shaq's comment earlier this year about Wade irks me when "his child" comes out and drops 31 and 15 to throw this team on his back and hold homecourt advantage.

Last year the Heat made it to the second round and went 7 games with no Shaq.  Last year the Suns did jack diddly (not to be confused with P Diddy).

[jn]

Follow up:  After reviewing some stats it appears some of what the article claimed (or what I remember of it) was a bit off.  Hakeem hit the wall at 35 or 36 and yes, Kareem and Wilt did continue to put up resectable numbers.  However around the mid thirties some of their numbers did drop considerably.  In particular Kareems rebounds went into single digits when he was 34 and steadily declined.  Wilts scoring dropped from 20 to 14 around that same age.  Kareems scoring and field goal percantage held up well though.  You're never to old for a sky hook apparently.

Also I was wrong about the Admiral.  His numbers did drop quickly too.

 

[Reality]

Malone while not a Center is one of the most ripped 40s I've seen.  In a gym or not.  On roids or not.

JOneal pounded Shaqs thigh.  Don't see how you all discount that.
Would Shaq have wound down anyways?  I dont think so.  The Heat did a fine job of keeping him around 30-35 minutes and he was going to sit out some reg season end games simply to rest prior to the JOneal slam.  Which i did not find that accidental.  Not calling it a fullon cheapshot by any means.  But i do wonder if in the back of JOneal mind he thought "here's a blast back Dieslebutt...or hey i know how the Pacers can have a better chance."

Leave out the JOneal slam.  Keep Shaq at 325 and in shape over the summer and into next year.  Keep Zo healthy and give him even more minutes.  He and Heat have same type season 2005-6.

[Skandery]

At over 315 pounds and 12 years of hack-a-Shaq, I'd be surprised if he can wake up in the morning without something hurting.  It's pretty much a given that Shaq is slower and probably physically weaker than he used to be.  And I think those trends will continue as he ages.  But I do believe, the Shaq of today remains a valuable asset and addition to the team he plays for.  So in answer to JoMal's question.  The Heat's chances at a title without Shaq are virtually non-existent.  

I got a chance to see the closing minutes of game 2 and when Shaq or Wade weren't shooting free throws, the Wizards were on the other end hoisting desperation shots.  The Wizard big men were so busy trying to clamp Shaq down, Wade would just swoop in and grab the board.  It's these intangibles provided by a Shaq that don't go on stat sheets that makes a good team a champion.  If Chris Mihm was the Heat Center, I don't think Wade would have the opportunity to use his talents in the most meaningful way.  A hard lesson learned by Kobe this year!!          

[Joe Vancil]

Look, when it comes to top-notch, back-to-the-basket offensive threats, we're left with two of them in the league - Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal.  Any guard (that isn't named Kobe Bryant) can tell you that a back-to-the-basket post threat makes the game a lot, lot easier.  Not only does such a player create foul trouble, but he has the ability to see the outside players, making it easier for him to pass to them when they're open...meaning they'll get better looks.  In addition, that means eye contact is quickly and easily available.

Any face-up player is going to have an advantage playing with Shaq, no matter how old and washed-up he's reputed to be.  Add to the fact that O'Neal has good footwork, and a great passing eye, and it's going to be hard for his basketball skills to decline appreciably just because of a few steps backward on the physical skills.

Sure, Shaq's slowing down.  But so far, only Detroit has shown any real signs of understanding how to exploit that.

The only place on the basketball court where Shaq is truly ineffective is on the sideline.  And I don't see that changing.

 

[Laker Fan]

You beat me to the punch JoMal. Jabar and Chamberlain immediately lept tp mind as not winding down and as for Kareems rebounds winding down at that age, it seems to me Magic had a little something to do with that.

[guest-koast]

Shaq DNP......because of a bruise?  I thought he is the best football player to play basketball?  Football players play with broken bones and sprains.

Something is up but his ego will not let him admit that his lack of conditioning is the reason for him running out of gas.