Author Topic: OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home  (Read 3134 times)

Offline spursfan101

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« on: February 19, 2004, 09:22:01 AM »
WHY do our friends, our brothers,  our fathers and our sisters  have to keep dying for democracy in another part of the world?  Oh I forgot. Were in Iraq because of 9-11.  GW, let's bring our boys home from this middle east Vietnam. [/size]



Pentagon Tight-Lipped as Self-Inflicted Deaths Mount in Military [/size]
By Theola Labbé
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 19, 2004; Page A01


LUFKIN, Tex. -- Two-year-old Jada Suell tumbled out of the car and ran ahead of everyone -- her grandmother, her mother, her cousins and her 4-year-old sister, Jakayla -- toward the grave of Joseph Dewayne Suell.

Dada," said the little girl. In the Sunday afternoon quiet of Cedar Grove cemetery, her toddler voice reverberated like a shout.

"Yes, we're going to Daddy's grave," her grandmother Rena Mathis said reassuringly.

The silver grave cover bore colorful wreaths and American flags -- a nod to Suell's three years of military service. He was deployed to Iraq in April 2003 as an Army petroleum supply specialist out of Fort Sill, Okla. Less than two months later, he was dead.

A report provided to the family at their request says that the 24-year-old died of a drug overdose on Father's Day, one of 22 suicides reported among troops in Iraq last year.

According to William Winkenwerder Jr., assistant secretary of defense for health affairs, who discussed the suicides in a briefing last month, that represents a rate of more than 13.5 per 100,000 troops, about 20 percent higher than the recent Army average of 10.5 to 11. The Pentagon plans to release the findings of a team sent to Iraq last fall to investigate the mental health of the troops, including suicides.

The number Winkenwerder cited does not include cases under investigation, so the actual number may be higher. It also excludes the suicides by soldiers who have returned to the United States. For instance, two soldiers undergoing mental health treatment at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington reportedly committed suicide there, in July 2003 and last month. In its weekly report on the treatment of returning battlefield soldiers, the hospital never mentioned the deaths. An official at Walter Reed said the deaths are "suspected" suicides and are being investigated by the Army's criminal division.

Stephen L. Robinson, who visits the hospital regularly and is executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center, a nonprofit advocacy group for veterans and soldiers, said there was no public record of the deaths. "They just covered it up," he said.


'A Different Kind of War'
The 130,000 troops stationed in Iraq are fighting the first prolonged ground war since Vietnam. What the two conflicts have in common is a public debate over the war itself, which can cause soldiers to question themselves, said Ronald W. Maris, a professor emeritus of psychiatry at the University of South Carolina.

"World War I and World War II seemed a little more righteous in that there was an initial aggression by an enemy that we didn't start," he said. "That would not apply to Vietnam and not to Iraq."

The rate of military suicides is traditionally lower than that in the general population when looking at comparable age groups. And it usually decreases during wartime. A spike in the number in July prompted the military to send a mental health team to Iraq to investigate.

"Once the fighting is over, that's when people have time on their hands in an austere environment and 24-hour access to guns," Pentagon spokeswoman Martha Rudd said. "And they have the time to brood on their problems."

The postwar troops stationed in Iraq have to contend with roadside bombs, mortars launched into their base camps and the plaintive cries of women and children that are sometimes a ruse for an ambush. Although units are starting to be rotated and replaced, the length of deployment is uncertain.

By contrast, there were four days of ground war in the 1991 Persian Gulf War, after which the U.S. coalition declared victory. Two suicides were recorded during that conflict.

Other recent U.S.-led engagements "were more like video games," Maris said. "When you have hands on, face to face, see the dying, see the injured, see the blood, see the suffering, it's a lot more difficult."

Robinson, of the resource center, who is a retired Army ranger and fought in the first Gulf War, said Iraq is without a front line.

"Everybody's the enemy, there are no lines in front of you or behind you and the dangers are everywhere. . . . Every trash pile is your potential death," he said.

"It's a different kind of war."

Staff writer Tamara Jones and researchers Madonna Lebling, Julie Tate and Rob Thomason contributed to this report from Washington.



 
 
 
Paul

Offline Ted

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2004, 12:24:34 PM »
Oh geez. While the preponderence of suicides and the overall worth of the occupation of Iraq DESERVES to be closely examined, to call this war another Vietnam is pure political bullsh*t and ludicrous drivel, and it's disrespectful to the soldiers who suffered through a hell-hole of a war so mismanaged and poorly conceived that soldiers came home convinced that their government had not really wanted victory. You could expect 60 to 80 casualties EVERY weekend in Vietnam. Over the course of the decade-long war in Vietnam, we lost nearly 60,000 men. To match that number in Iraq at the current rate, we would have to be there, under today's circumstances until the year 2124 (120 years!).

This article isn't worthy to line my birdcage, if I had a birdcage. The author is nothing but a political hack. I find it curious that the author neglects to mention the absurd suicide rate in Vietnam (which the DOD tries to keep under wraps), or that she also fails to mention that the military suicide rate for Iraq is LOWER than the current civilian suicide rate for males of any ethnicity (according to the National Institutes of Health), or that the current suicide rate is lower than in 1993, in peacetime under a different administration.

Another note of interest on the Vietnam War: since the end of the war, 180,000 Vietnam veterans have taken their own lives (according to Veterans of Foreign Wars).

The war in Iraq sucks. I hate it that our guys are over there as walking targets. Still, I have talked to four guys in the Utah Army Reserves who have just finished tours in Iraq; in their minds, they were there not only to remove a threat named Saddam (he may not have been as dangerous as we thought), but they were there to take the fight out of America. You and I may not like the ramifications of attacking another country, but the fact of the matter is that the people who hate us are going after our military now, not our cities and our skyscrapers. And get this, no matter how much we debase ourselves and wet our pants in fear for them, they are not going to like us, EVER. If our safety were left to the dribblers who whine and pontificate on the evils of war, we would not have our freedom, plain and simple.

101, I respect you for your interest and involvement in our democracy. You're obviously a thinker, and you obviously want what I want: truth, justice, freedom and the American way. Although we may differ on some of the methods used to preserve it, that which unites us is greater than that which divides us, and I hope it always stays that way. You care, and that counts for a lot. But to call this war another Vietnam makes it seem like you either don't know all of the facts, or are deliberately ignoring the ones that don't serve your purpose.

Now let me say this: President Bush, get our boys out of Iraq by the end of the summer and get control of spending or lose my vote! I sure hope there's an independent running this year, cuz I don't know if I can vote for Kerry.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

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Offline WayOutWest

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2004, 12:47:26 PM »
".......you either don't know all of the facts, or are deliberately ignoring the ones that don't serve your purpose."

"You and I may not like the ramifications of attacking another country, but the fact of the matter is that the people who hate us are going after our military now, not our cities and our skyscrapers."

Take your own advice, don't kid yourself into thinking that's a fact.  I kind of agree with that sentiment but at the same time I don't think the "bad guys" are that stupid.  Their biggest weapon is to attack us on our own soil, I'm sure they haven't lost sight of that, it's just harder now but IMO it's still VERY easy to slip something into one of our sea-ports, especially on the west coast.  :unsure:

"And get this, no matter how much we debase ourselves and wet our pants in fear for them, they are not going to like us, EVER. If our safety were left to the dribblers who whine and pontificate on the evils of war, we would not have our freedom, plain and simple."

I agree that pretty much everyone hates us, even our allies, we should have just accidentally dropped a nuke somewhere.  Sure we would catch some flak but it would have been worth it.  You don't hear any Japs talking shyte do you?  I'm only half kidding.  :ph34r:  
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Offline Ted

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2004, 01:18:50 PM »
You're right: the word "fact" isn't the best choice there. I don't pretend to think that the Iraq war is going to make the U.S. safer in the future. Remember how much it pisses Fundamentalist Muslims to have our guys on Islamic soil. That's the whole thing that got us in this mess a decade ago.

I also don't pretend that the American homeland isn't still in danger. But we haven't had an attack in 2 1/2 years, mainly because all of the militants from Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran are heading to Iraq or Afghanistan to drive out the infidels.

About the nuke thing: I personally don't want us to get meaner than we have. If we reacted to terrorism the way the Soviets did, or even Russia of today does in Chechnya, we'd wreak some serious havoc. Killing a terrorist's family, children, acquaintances, dogs, cats, sprinkling their remains with bacon bits. At least we are civilized about our unlawful encarcerations and nation "building."  <_<
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 01:21:57 PM by Ted »
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline WayOutWest

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2004, 01:28:29 PM »
Sometimes I wish the US would get "China" on some terrorist arses!  They just draw a circle on a map and everything within that circle DIES.  Then low and behold, no terrorists.  No families, pigs, horses, chickens or cockroaches either but hey, you can't cut out a tumor with a toothpick.  
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

jn

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2004, 01:36:42 PM »
CHINA?????  What the **** are you talking about??? They are terrorists, sell weapons to terrorists, kill students for wanting to vote, imprison cafe owners for having internet connections, and thank God they kill those terrorist Tibetans.  If they hadn't invaded Tibet you just know that the monks would be downing airplanes by chanting OOMMMMMMMM.....

Offline WayOutWest

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2004, 01:43:54 PM »
Did I mention anything about China other than their treatment of terrorists?

The answer is NO!

Please check yourself.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

jn

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2004, 01:55:00 PM »
Yeeesss... and the aformentioned people are what China considers terrorists.  Name some actual terrorists they've gone after?  There's a small number of Muslim separatists in one region near Mongolia.  

So which terrorists are you talking about? Falun Gong? The Taiwanese who spread deadly terror through the right to vote?
 

Offline spursfan101

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2004, 01:55:35 PM »
I'm all for the war on terror, but terrorism WILL NEVER GO AWAY. We can't divulge all of our resources and piss off all of our allies and let our economy, our jobs, and our educational system go to shyte.

And I don't think the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with the war on terror. It's been pretty clear, even among people in his own admistration, that he used 9-11 as an excuse to go to war. HE wanted to go to war against Iraq from the beginning.

And I don't think that taking down Sadaam has made us any safer in the US.  Terrorist cels exist all over the world, including in our backyard. I hate Sadaam, I was a reservist called up during Desert Storm 1, and I felt we were going there with a purpose. To liberate Kuwait.  We had the whole world on our side. It's really hard for me to think we had real purpose going in there and risking American lives.

ANd you had had apoint. Iraq, not the US, is not the major battlefront for the war.    Glad Bush was forward thinking, I'm sure he planned it that way.  


 
Paul

jn

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2004, 02:05:10 PM »
Aaaah WOW, the quotations around China make a slight difference.  Slight.  ;)

 

Offline WayOutWest

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OT: Suicides in Iraq, Questions at Home
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2004, 02:13:51 PM »
China = Brutal (Can't beleive I had to S-P-E-L-L it out for ya)  ;)

Technically, Turkestan Islamic Movement is a terrorist organization in China.

Technically = Bush can act like a POS scum sucking criminal and not get called on it.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"