PhillyArena Forums
PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: Rolando Blackman on January 14, 2011, 10:59:25 AM
-
Hey y'all!
As I reflect on how my disinterest in the fortunes of the LAL (and thereby the NBA in general for quite a while due to life issues) developed over time, I realize that my tendency to 'blame it all on the Mamba' is unfair. Why is Kobe so hated, such a polarizing figure amongst the NBA fan base ever? None 'a y'all will believe what follows...
(1) He's a winner, and has been pretty much since the inception of his NBA career. America prefers the story line in which after much struggle, through effort and perserverance the protagonist achieves the goals he/she sought. We do not give consistent, perennial achievers much love, e.g. Yankees, Patriots, SA, Federer, and so on ~ that's just how it is here in the good ol' Hew~Hess~Hay.
(2) He is perceived to be (and rightly so, IMHO) to be the epitome of the self~absorbed, me~only superstar of the times. This is assuredly a byproduct of (1) above, but it is what it is, as Belichick would mumble.
(3) He has never asked publicly for forgiveness for his actions (still the source of various and sundry speculation) that led to his legfal troubles in CO and further rejection by the Laker~hating base (thanks WoW). A redemption story is not complete without replete devastating consequences on the subject's life appearing to be overcome (or not ~ see the story of 'Golden Voice' radio personality Ted Williams).
Gotta go...more later.
Shaq #1
-
Hey y'all!
As I reflect on how my disinterest in the fortunes of the LAL (and thereby the NBA in general for quite a while due to life issues) developed over time, I realize that my tendency to 'blame it all on the Mamba' is unfair. Why is Kobe so hated, such a polarizing figure amongst the NBA fan base ever? None 'a y'all will believe what follows...
(1) He's a winner, and has been pretty much since the inception of his NBA career. America prefers the story line in which after much struggle, through effort and perserverance the protagonist achieves the goals he/she sought. We do not give consistent, perennial achievers much love, e.g. Yankees, Patriots, SA, Federer, and so on ~ that's just how it is here in the good ol' Hew~Hess~Hay.
(2) He is perceived to be (and rightly so, IMHO) to be the epitome of the self~absorbed, me~only superstar of the times. This is assuredly a byproduct of (1) above, but it is what it is, as Belichick would mumble.
(3) He has never asked publicly for forgiveness for his actions (still the source of various and sundry speculation) that led to his legfal troubles in CO and further rejection by the Laker~hating base (thanks WoW). A redemption story is not complete without replete devastating consequences on the subject's life appearing to be overcome (or not ~ see the story of 'Golden Voice' radio personality Ted Williams).
Gotta go...more later.
Shaq #1
I do not agree with #1. Have you forgotten about Kobe's airballs vs Utah? He is the hardest working NBA player I have ever seen but I think it has more to do with having success with the Lakers, a franchise that has been successful through out history. Had he taken a team like say..uhmm...Cleveland to the promise land then it would be a very different story. Not to mention winning three titles with Shaq is the main gun, he was percieved as more of a side kick than Batman.
The other points I agree with, can't argue against the truth.
-
Hey WoW!
Prior to hitting 'send', I thought about that bricklaying session Veinte~quattro had in the playoffs (PLAYOFFS?!) of his rookie season ~ however, after consideration I decided that incident only portended the deadly 'Mamba' he was to become. Sure, it must have stung for a 19~year~old to gag like that, but by the time of his incredible performance in the 'Milk Money' Western Conference Finals he had gotten over it. Even the most vitriolic Kobe hater cannot deny his all~around greatness. Once he picks up his defense as his career winds down (a la MJ), his GOAT status is assured. I'm just sayin'!
And, the Batman/Robin comparo is appropos, IMHO...how that for poetry? LOL
It's good to be back! Thanks, Dabods.
Shaq #1
-
Greatest of all times? Not while Russell figures into the equation. Not while Kareem Abdul-Jabbar figures into the equation. After those two, THEN we'll talk Kobe.
The one notable think about Russell and Abdul-Jabbar (and Chamberlain) was that they changed the game. Kobe really hasn't done that.
-
Greatest of all times? Not while Russell figures into the equation. Not while Kareem Abdul-Jabbar figures into the equation. After those two, THEN we'll talk Kobe.
The one notable think about Russell and Abdul-Jabbar (and Chamberlain) was that they changed the game. Kobe really hasn't done that.
:D :D :D Keep going about 45 more names.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2mycj9l.jpg)
-
Greatest of all times? Not while Russell figures into the equation. Not while Kareem Abdul-Jabbar figures into the equation. After those two, THEN we'll talk Kobe.
The one notable think about Russell and Abdul-Jabbar (and Chamberlain) was that they changed the game. Kobe really hasn't done that.
:D :D :D Keep going about 45 more names.
No, I don't think so. At this stage, I don't think I can place Kobe any lower than the top 20 in NBA history, and very likely top 10. Just because I dislike the guy, it's not enough to keep him out. After all, I'm not *THAT* big of a fan of Jordan, Chamberlain, or Baylor, either, and at least two of those guys have to be top 10 (at worst).
Bryant may very well figure in the Jordan category. He may figure in with the Bird/Magic category. I don't think these are unreasonable things. I *DO* think it's unreasonable to put him with Russell and Abdul-Jabbar.
A REALLY interesting debate would ensue in the "Who's greater: Shaq or Kobe?" argument. My reasoning here is that O'Neal *DID* trigger a rule change (illegal defense softening), and that's a big thing when describing a "game changer" to me.
Make no mistake - I can argue *EITHER* side of the "Jordan vs. Kobe" coin, and handle it respectably, even though, for my take, Jordan was the greater of the two. I can't argue Kobe's side against Abdul-Jabbar or Russell well enough to convince myself it's not completely done just for the sake of argument.
-
No, I don't think so. At this stage, I don't think I can place Kobe any lower than the top 20 in NBA history,
This part comes within the real of reasonableness.
Bryant may very well figure in the Jordan category.
:D How so?
Jordan lead the Bulls to 6 Championships with Bill Wentington at Center for a time.
Kobme most assurably did not lead the 1st repeat and you and i can agree to disagree that he lead the 2nd one.
6-24 in a game 7 and yet named the MVP? Tell me when any legit star has been given that kind of pampering. What fertilizer. Bailed out by Gasol, Ray Allens choking etc.
He may figure in with the Bird/Magic category.
I don't think he comes close to Magic but to say he may figure in with Bird is just absurd.
Take away Shaq, the Kings fix, the Gasol/Fisher collusion and the gawd awful ongoing reffing favoritism and does he have much more of a career then Dominique Wilkens?
Does he even exceed 'Nique?
See 2004-07 for your answer.
Anywho i posted the pic mostly for RoBlackman sake who's been out.
-
No, I don't think so. At this stage, I don't think I can place Kobe any lower than the top 20 in NBA history,
This part comes within the real of reasonableness.
Bryant may very well figure in the Jordan category.
:D How so?
Jordan lead the Bulls to 6 Championships with Bill Wentington at Center for a time.
Kobme most assurably did not lead the 1st repeat and you and i can agree to disagree that he lead the 2nd one.
6-24 in a game 7 and yet named the MVP? Tell me when any legit star has been given that kind of pampering. What fertilizer. Bailed out by Gasol, Ray Allens choking etc.
He may figure in with the Bird/Magic category.
I don't think he comes close to Magic but to say he may figure in with Bird is just absurd.
Take away Shaq, the Kings fix, the Gasol/Fisher collusion and the gawd awful ongoing reffing favoritism and does he have much more of a career then Dominique Wilkens?
Does he even exceed 'Nique?
See 2004-07 for your answer.
Anywho i posted the pic mostly for RoBlackman sake who's been out.
Jordan won 6 championships, with Scottie Pippen a common teammate for every one of them. Kobe's "common teammate" is Derek Fisher. Jordan was "the leader," but he had a MINIMUM of two all-stars with him on every championship team he had. He also appeared in 6 finals - one LESS than Kobe Bryant *SO* *FAR*. And as for having Bill Wennington as a center, I could point out that Kobe had Greg Foster. Wennington, like Foster, was never a starter.
The fact that Jordan was "the man" is over-emphasized. He was the feature player. While Bryant was not the feature guy on the first three Laker championships with him on the team, that does not invalidate his place. Jordan was the league's top 2 guard at the time of his championships, and Bryant has been the league's top two-guard at the time of his. The fact that Bryant played alongside the league's best center at the time shouldn't invalidate his own place.
Why shouldn't he come close to Bird? After all, Bird wasn't even the MVP of one of his championship teams, using the same argument you used for Jordan against Kobe. Bryant wears more rings, and had even fewer stars alongside him. And I have Magic in front of Bird.
Take away the Parish and McHale for Joe Barry Carrol trade, Johnson for Rick Robey, stealing plays from the 76er huddle via the TV in the locker room when you're thrown out of games, ridiculous numbers of excellent players, some stars on their former teams, flocking to your team to play, and what has Bird accomplished? You cannot start taking away the good fortune ANY top player enjoyed from them when considering where they were in regard to the rest of the league. It's blatantly unfair - and ANY star level player will have his share of baggage.
-
Jordan won 6 championships, with Scottie Pippen a common teammate for every one of them. Kobe's "common teammate" is Derek Fisher.
And here a lot of us thought it was Shaq and Gasol who benefitted Kobme the most.
So lets see, Fisher is as good as Shaq? And Gasol?
The fact that Jordan was "the man" is over-emphasized. He was the feature player. While Bryant was not the feature guy on the first three Laker championships with him on the team, that does not invalidate his place. Jordan was the league's top 2 guard at the time of his championships, and Bryant has been the league's top two-guard at the time of his. The fact that Bryant played alongside the league's best center at the time shouldn't invalidate his own place.
6 legit championships as the unquestionable leader is = to 2 as the (debateable) leader. Mmmmkay.
And as for having Bill Wennington as a center, I could point out that Kobe had Greg Foster. Wennington, like Foster, was never a starter.
Get this weak stuff out.
Classic Laker posterism.
Foster played 3 freaking minutes the entire playoffs! The one and only season he was with Kobme.
Foster started 8 games for the Lakers.
Wentington started 50+ games for the Bulls during 3 seasons of their second 3 peat.
Minutes? Foster 7.3
Wentington double digits pretty much thruout. 15 13 and 10.
Oh i guess we need to go on to Luc Longely. Since he is just as good as Shaq and Gasol too. ::)
Now tell me who Jordans *minimum of two All Stars on every team* were.
Then tell me who Lebron James were in Cleveland.
NO comparison.
Bird had plenty of help? You betchya.
He was playing against Mo Malone, Dr. J, and Bobby Jones just to win the Division, let alone the Conf.
Kobme lined up against Golden State. :D
You go ahead and slobber over his last two *Championships*.
I'll take quality over quantity any time.
-
Jordan won 6 championships, with Scottie Pippen a common teammate for every one of them. Kobe's "common teammate" is Derek Fisher.
And here a lot of us thought it was Shaq and Gasol who benefitted Kobme the most.
So lets see, Fisher is as good as Shaq? And Gasol?
Not my point. My point is that Kobe has done it with DIFFERENT teammates. His only common teammate for all the championships is Derek Fisher. Jordan *ALWAYS* had a common teammate for *ALL* his teams that won, and that guy was one of the best at his position. Kobe's teammate in such a similar situation has changed.
The fact that Jordan was "the man" is over-emphasized. He was the feature player. While Bryant was not the feature guy on the first three Laker championships with him on the team, that does not invalidate his place. Jordan was the league's top 2 guard at the time of his championships, and Bryant has been the league's top two-guard at the time of his. The fact that Bryant played alongside the league's best center at the time shouldn't invalidate his own place.
6 legit championships as the unquestionable leader is = to 2 as the (debateable) leader. Mmmmkay.
And, again, you over-emphasize the importance of being "the man." The fact that Worthy and Abdul-Jabbar were MVPs in the playoffs for the Lakers doesn't diminish the fact that Magic Johnson was instrumental to the picture. Heck, one year, Abdul-Jabbar was the LEAGUE MVP, but Magic was the PLAYOFF MVP. So which one was "the man"? Answer: it doesn't matter. BOTH were critical to the mix. Just like Shaq/Gasol and Kobe or Pippen and Jordan.
And as for having Bill Wennington as a center, I could point out that Kobe had Greg Foster. Wennington, like Foster, was never a starter.
Get this weak stuff out.
Classic Laker posterism.
Foster played 3 freaking minutes the entire playoffs! The one and only season he was with Kobme.
Foster started 8 games for the Lakers.
Wentington started 50+ games for the Bulls during 3 seasons of their second 3 peat.
Minutes? Foster 7.3
Wentington double digits pretty much thruout. 15 13 and 10.
Oh i guess we need to go on to Luc Longely. Since he is just as good as Shaq and Gasol too. ::)
Now tell me who Jordans *minimum of two All Stars on every team* were.
Then tell me who Lebron James were in Cleveland.
NO comparison.
Bird had plenty of help? You betchya.
He was playing against Mo Malone, Dr. J, and Bobby Jones just to win the Division, let alone the Conf.
Kobme lined up against Golden State. :D
You go ahead and slobber over his last two *Championships*.
I'll take quality over quantity any time.
THIS IS THE *LAST* TIME YOU WILL *EVER* ACCUSE ME OF "LAKER POSTERISM." UNDERSTAND THAT NOW. I'M TIRED OF DEALING WITH ANYTHING THAT DISAGREES WITH YOUR WARPED SENSE OF THINGS BEING TIED TO THE F****** LAKERS. TIE ME TO THE LAKERS JUST ONE MORE TIME - EVEN JUST INSINUATE IT IN ANY WAY, AS OBLIQUELY AS YOU THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH - AND I'M ADDING YOU TO THE IGNORE LIST. BE WARNED!
Wennington started 50 plus games? I think not. 20 games in 1996 (none playoff), 19 games in 1997 (wasn't even on the playoff roster), and 8 in 1998 (none playoff). Had you used Luc Longley at the start, you would have had a point - assuming, of course, that your point is that center is the most critical place to have a star player. At which point, I'm going to start bad-mouthing pretty much everyone who isn't a center (including your precious Larry Bird, who had Parish with him for every championship), and point out that my "greatest ever" list, includes 3 centers in the top 4 (along with Jordan).
Jordan teamed with Cartwright, Pippen, and Grant in his first three championships, and Pippen and Rodman in his second three. (Not going to reach onto the deep bench for Parish and the like.) Kobe had his help in the first two (Shaq, Green/Grant, Rice/Richmond), and the last (Gasol/Artest). But two years ago? Or the third?
When did LeBron James get into this discussion? He plays a different position, hasn't won a championship yet, and hasn't even been discussed in this thread for *ANY* reason yet (and is at least three or four years removed from being there, since this is a CAREER summary).
-
Hey y'all! (http://bravellir.com/gallery/d/7190-1/wave1.gif)
As I have previously stated concerning this very sort of discussion, it is problematic comparing the skills and overall impact of players from different eras. Greatness is in the eye of the bestower.
Even though it was towards the end of his career, I saw Wilt play and never thought he was 'alla that'. Ditto Bill Russell. If it wasn't for all of the championships, Russell would be a Ewing~type HoF'er.
Shaq #1
-
That's just it, thought, Rolando - "if it wasn't for all the championships." If it wasn't for all the championships, Jordan and Bryant would be nothing more than Dr. J, Connie Hawkins, Pete Maravich, or pick your poison. The championships *DO* indicate something.
More on topic of mine and Reality's discussion - how much should being "the man" count for when a championship is obviously a shared thing? How do you divide the contributions to, for instance, the 1980 Lakers championship appropriately between Magic, Abdul-Jabbar, Nixon, and Wilkes? Should the fact that Paxson - who is nowhere near "the man" - hit the series-deciding shot against Phoenix count against Jordan's "the man" claim? How do we appropriately divide credit for the 1990 Detroit championship between Dumars and Isiah?
I maintain that in a team environment where duties are somewhat - but not entirely - divided, like basketball, the "the man" tag is overblown. Jordan doesn't win without Pippen, Kobe doesn't win without Shaq/Gasol, Shaq doesn't win without Kobe/Wade. Therefore, discounting a player's obvious accomplishments (at a high level) when he was an obvious crucial key element, but not specifically "the man" is an error.
-
Jordan was "the leader," but he had a MINIMUM of two all-stars with him on every championship team he had.
And who where they?
Or are you moving the bar to mean Jordan had two all stars who were all stars at any time previously in their careers?
And *NOT* the year(s) of the Championship -which is oodles more relevant.
Not my point. My point is that Kobe has done it with DIFFERENT teammates.
And Jordan hasn't??!! :D
Poor Kobme had to do it with a different center. All he was given was Pao Gasol, and Gasol was different from Kwame Brown playing center. Oh boo hoo lets have a pity party for Kobme. :D :D
What a joke! I wonder how the 2008 Celtics, Spurs, Mavs etc would have done and would still be doing having a *different* center named Pao Gasol join their team like Pamper Boi got midseason? Spare us!
Wennington started 50 plus games? I think not. 20 games in 1996 (none playoff), 19 games in 1997 (wasn't even on the playoff roster), and 8 in 1998 (none playoff).
47 games instead of 50. Ohh you got me. :D Joe Vancil Wennington, like Foster, was never a starter.
Luc Longley yes that is who else Jordan had for center. Yes as you state center position is a crucial position. So Jordan did it with Luc Longley and Bill Wentington. Jordan was the unquestioned leader from the SG position. No comparison to having Shaq, Gasol, Bob Parish etc.
-
Hey y'all! (http://bravellir.com/gallery/d/7190-1/wave1.gif)
As I have previously stated concerning this very sort of discussion, it is problematic comparing the skills and overall impact of players from different eras. Greatness is in the eye of the bestower.
Even though it was towards the end of his career, I saw Wilt play and never thought he was 'alla that'. Ditto Bill Russell. If it wasn't for all of the championships, Russell would be a Ewing~type HoF'er.
Shaq #1
Absolutely. Rolando i am assuming you have laced up a pair of low top Converse circa 1960's. Compared to todays 200Xs better shoes.
Ditto the weight training and travel conditions. Russell, Wilt and co still had to put up with major racism.
-
Take away the Parish and McHale for Joe Barry Carrol trade,
From the internets:
Carroll was actually a very productive player. He averaged 18.9 points and 9.3 rebounds as a rookie. He scored a game high of 46 points and led the Warriors with 121 blocks during his first season, while being named an NBA All-Rookie First Team selection.
1981?1984
Two seasons later, he averaged a career high 24.1 points to go along with 8.7 rebounds. On March 5, 1983, he scored 52 points against the Utah Jazz. Played 1984 in Italy. He returned to the NBA for the 1985?86 season and averaged 21.2 points for two consecutive seasons under head coach George Karl. He was named to the 1987 NBA All-Star Game.
By all means lets compare that with Kwamster Browns Memphis Lakers career.
Johnson for Rick Robey,
Johnsons production went down in Phx and he clashed with McLeod. Robey and picks was and is certainly galaxies away from Kwamster for Gasol.
stealing plays from the 76er huddle via the TV in the locker room when you're thrown out of games,
Sounds like the 76ers could have done the same thing. Did they?
ridiculous numbers of excellent players, some stars on their former teams, flocking to your team to play, and what has Bird accomplished?
A few, who are the "ridiculous numbers of excellent players"?
You cannot start taking away the good fortune ANY top player enjoyed from them when considering where they were in regard to the rest of the league. It's blatantly unfair - and ANY star level player will have his share of baggage.
Bird most certainly benefitted from teamates in Boston.
Now, as to Lebron, whom you and weaksause tried denigrating because of his failure to lead the Cavs to the Finals, do tell who his teamates are who equal or exceed Birds, Magics, Kobmes, Mo Malones, Garnetts etc.
-
TIE ME TO THE LAKERS JUST ONE MORE TIME - EVEN JUST INSINUATE IT IN ANY WAY, AS OBLIQUELY AS YOU THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH - AND I'M ADDING YOU TO THE IGNORE LIST.
By all means lets compare that with Kwamster Browns Memphis Lakers career.
Warned, and ignored. Now returning the favor.
And for a trade that I got on both here and Fanhome and said was crap the moment it happened. Just cost yourself an ally on one of your most important (and potentially valid) points. Hope you're happy.
-
^^ naw that was directed at the Laker posters, not you.
But perhaps you just painted yourself into a corner and are using this as an out.
That would be sad but if so........
-
Hey RB, sorry for the delayed response.
I can think of several reasons Kobe is hated in some quarters.
First, he plays for Lakers. It's that simple. The Lakers fall in to the same category as the Yankees and Cowboys for some people.
Second, (and this is something I have a problem with) he worked his way to the Lakers before he had played a minute in the NBA. Yes, Jerry West wanted him and it's testiment to his skills as a GM that he got him. It's also the case that Kobe and his people made it known that they felt Charlotte and perhaps some other places were not worthy as media markets for him. That's a disagreeable attitude for a vet so for a teenager to display it is doubly annoying.
Third, because he followed in the wake of KG he didn't have the curiosity factor. People might have felt more inclined to like him if he had been a trailblazer who helped turn around a downtrodden franchise like Garnett. He didn't so he came off as a follower who had it easier because he went to a powerhouse.
The fourth point relates to number 3. Kobe is the son of an NBA player and from get go has had that advantage as well as the advantage of playing for a winning organization. Jordan had his "cut from the varsity" back story to market although of course that was really overplayed. Neverthless it worked as a marketing gimmick. The privilege of being the son of an NBA player has worked against Bryant. Kobe could never claim underdog status.
Another layer of hatred was added with the allegations of rape. There were some people who liked Kobe because he didn't present a thug image. I think this was especially true of older white people. That went out the window with the infidelity.
There's more but I gotta run.
-
Holy crap I missed a helluva thread here . . .
jn's last message and Joe's first message pretty much sum up all my thoughts.
I'll just add that Kobe has a certain attitude/persona that plays as an ultimate divider in peoples' perceptions. The same motivation that fosters the greatness he has accomplished, denies him the respect of those who have no reason to root for him. It was the same problem with Jordan, except Jordan did an excellent job of hiding his true persona in the media. The Jordan that your average rookie saw in training camp was a much different Jordan than the Gatorade commercial. Kobe hasn't shielded his persona from the masses as well. A persona that can be said to be responsible for his excellence (same as Jordan---unyielding competitiveness), yet nonetheless also responsible for dubious transgressions witnessed across a career under the spotlight.