PhillyArena Forums
PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: ziggy on February 04, 2010, 12:39:07 PM
-
This is based upon Win Shares. I will post the top 25 players later.
Only players included are those who have played a minimum of 27 games (67% of the games), and a minimum of 20 minutes per game. That made for 195 eligible players. (sorry I wish I could display a table better, but I don't know how).
Most surprising player is Thaddeus Young. My son has him on his fantasy team and has complained regularly about him. he has played 41 games at 34 minutes a game, and he is on pace to produce -2.5 wins or 2.5 losses.
I have never thought Corey Brewer was a very effective player, so this is not a surprise to me. I can give Jonny Flynn a break being a rookie PG. Overall 64% of Minnesota's minutes have gone to 7 players (Brewer, Hollins, Flynn, Gomes, Sessions, Pavolvic, Cardinal), and those 7 players have produced -4.8 wins using this methodology. That is horrible.
Other players who play significant roles are Boris Diaw, Al Thornton, Al Harrington, Mehmet Okur, JR Smith, and Roy Hibbert. Roy Hibbert is 7-2 280 lbs, and is playing 24 minutes a game, while grabbing a whopping 5.8 rebounds a game. Since mid-November he has played 31 games, and had 10 or more rebounds twice. That is pathetic.
Rank Player Team Games Min/Game Minutes WP48 Wins Produced
1 Corey Brewer Minnesota 41 31 1,261 -0.055 -1.4
2 Dahntay Jones Indiana 40 29 1,142 -0.06 -1.4
3 Thaddeus Young Philadelphia 41 34 1,413 -0.043 -1.3
4 Jonny Flynn Minnesota 41 30 1,211 -0.051 -1.3
5 Al Thornton LA Clippers 39 30 1,159 -0.046 -1.1
6 Rafer Alston New Jersey 27 28 766 -0.071 -1.1
7 Andres Nocioni Sacramento 40 22 862 -0.058 -1
8 Terrence Williams New Jersey 38 20 754 -0.059 -0.9
9 Brad Miller Chicago 41 21 843 -0.045 -0.8
10 Vladimir Radmanovic Golden State 28 25 707 -0.048 -0.7
11 Boris Diaw Charlotte 41 35 1,422 -0.016 -0.5
12 Al Harrington New York 39 31 1,193 -0.014 -0.4
13 Spencer Hawes Sacramento 40 27 1,070 -0.014 -0.3
14 Zydrunas Ilgauskas Cleveland 40 21 855 -0.012 -0.2
15 Mehmet Okur Utah 37 29 1,081 -0.005 -0.1
16 Ronald Murray Charlotte 35 21 728 -0.007 -0.1
17 J.R. Smith Denver 34 28 941 0.001 0
18 Nenad Krstic Oklahoma City 39 23 885 0 0
19 Derek Fisher LA Lakers 41 27 1,102 0.004 0.1
20 Roy Hibbert Indiana 41 24 969 0.007 0.1
-
I just assumed the first 12 players would be the Wolves roster.
-
I can't believe there are only 2 Nets in the top 20.
-
I was thinking the same thing Lurker. The two that surprise me most are Big Z and Nocioni.
-
I've been complaining about Okur, who's on my Fantasy team, all year long. He's really been bad this year. But he's finally starting to do some damage lately, now that Boozer may be out.
-
Is Thad Young a bad defensive player, or a player being played out of position. He's 6'8" and 220 lbs. and 22 years old. He should be playing small forward where he wouldn't be over-matched physically. But in Philadelphia, where we seem to have a penchant for picking seriously deficient coaches, he's being played almost exclusively at the 4 spot.
I think Thad is getting a bad rap because he can't defend bigger players in the post. I don't think that's his fault. I think his coach is a moron.
-
he's actually 21 (will be the entire season).
-
Is Thad Young a bad defensive player, or a player being played out of position. He's 6'8" and 220 lbs. and 22 years old. He should be playing small forward where he wouldn't be over-matched physically. But in Philadelphia, where we seem to have a penchant for picking seriously deficient coaches, he's being played almost exclusively at the 4 spot.
I think Thad is getting a bad rap because he can't defend bigger players in the post. I don't think that's his fault. I think his coach is a moron.
So what about a guy like Rose who was the same size yet was playing centers?
-
Is Thad Young a bad defensive player, or a player being played out of position. He's 6'8" and 220 lbs. and 22 years old. He should be playing small forward where he wouldn't be over-matched physically. But in Philadelphia, where we seem to have a penchant for picking seriously deficient coaches, he's being played almost exclusively at the 4 spot.
I think Thad is getting a bad rap because he can't defend bigger players in the post. I don't think that's his fault. I think his coach is a moron.
So what about a guy like Rose who was the same size yet was playing centers?
Rose weighed a lot more than Thad. Thad is a skinny kid, who will eventually fill out (Probably) Rose was stocky and very strong. I think like 260 or so. Maybe in 5 or 6 years Thad will fill out enough to guard these bigs, but why should the Sixers do that when they have a seven-footer and two 6-11 guys to guard them instead? Some players, like LeBron and Barkley were shorter players who could go inside because they were wide-bodies. Skinny players like Thad can't bull their way in, or keep a bull out.
Besides it's good for the Sixers IMO, to have a size advantage. It's stupid to expect Thad to guard Gasol or Bynum. He can't even handle Odom!
-
Is Thad Young a bad defensive player, or a player being played out of position. He's 6'8" and 220 lbs. and 22 years old. He should be playing small forward where he wouldn't be over-matched physically. But in Philadelphia, where we seem to have a penchant for picking seriously deficient coaches, he's being played almost exclusively at the 4 spot.
I think Thad is getting a bad rap because he can't defend bigger players in the post. I don't think that's his fault. I think his coach is a moron.
So what about a guy like Rose who was the same size yet was playing centers?
Rose weighed a lot more than Thad. Thad is a skinny kid, who will eventually fill out (Probably) Rose was stocky and very strong. I think like 260 or so. Maybe in 5 or 6 years Thad will fill out enough to guard these bigs, but why should the Sixers do that when they have a seven-footer and two 6-11 guys to guard them instead? Some players, like LeBron and Barkley were shorter players who could go inside because they were wide-bodies. Skinny players like Thad can't bull their way in, or keep a bull out.
Besides it's good for the Sixers IMO, to have a size advantage. It's stupid to expect Thad to guard Gasol or Bynum. He can't even handle Odom!
He is 30 pounds heavier than Thad but is shorter and has a much smaller wing span. There are not many power forwards in this league who are very strong and can bully around people. Gasol and Odom certainly are not the type to use their strength go get into position. Gasol is stick skinny and so is Odom. They use their foot work and speed to score. The days of Duncan and Barkley big men are over IMO. What power forwards are so strong that they can move him with ease? I see more KG, Gasol. Dirk types than I do Barkley types.
-
Lurker, JN,
Part of the lack of NJ data is that I set a limit of 27 games and 20 minutes per game, so some would not necessarily show on the bottom 25 list because they didn't have the minutes.
Here is the NJ only data
Brook Lopez New Jersey 41 36 1,490 0.141 4.4 41 8.8
Josh Boone New Jersey 35 19 673 0.104 1.5 22 2.9
Courtney Lee New Jersey 34 33 1,113 0.053 1.2 29 2.4
Trenton Hassell New Jersey 34 24 813 0.033 0.6 19 1.1
Devin Harris New Jersey 30 34 1,023 0.028 0.6 27 1.2
Kris Humphries New Jersey 4 24 96 0.238 0.5 0 1
Chris Douglas-Roberts New Jersey 32 35 1,112 0.016 0.4 30 0.7
Yi Jianlian New Jersey 17 34 581 0.014 0.2 16 0.3
Keyon Dooling New Jersey 17 18 304 -0.017 -0.1 1 -0.2
Chris Quinn New Jersey 6 6 36 -0.208 -0.2 0 -0.3
Jarvis Hayes New Jersey 9 17 149 -0.143 -0.4 0 -0.9
Eduardo Najera New Jersey 13 16 204 -0.095 -0.4 2 -0.8
Tony Battie New Jersey 11 9 104 -0.234 -0.5 0 -1
Sean Williams New Jersey 20 11 227 -0.117 -0.6 0 -1.1
Bobby Simmons New Jersey 23 17 395 -0.092 -0.8 2 -1.5
Terrence Williams New Jersey 38 20 754 -0.059 -0.9 3 -1.9
Rafer Alston New Jersey 27 28 766 -0.071 -1.1 13 -2.3
Here is all the Minnesota data
Kevin Love Minnesota 23 31 718 0.431 6.4 19 12.9
Al Jefferson Minnesota 39 34 1,313 0.111 3 39 6.1
Damien Wilkins Minnesota 40 21 831 0.138 2.4 25 4.8
Ramon Sessions Minnesota 41 21 871 0.049 0.9 0 1.8
Ryan Gomes Minnesota 35 28 967 0.018 0.4 24 0.7
Nathan Jawai Minnesota 32 11 361 0.043 0.3 2 0.6
Wayne Ellington Minnesota 39 18 706 0.016 0.2 1 0.5
Jason Hart Minnesota 1 5 5 0.033 0 0 0
Oleksiy Pecherov Minnesota 30 12 360 -0.047 -0.4 5 -0.7
Brian Cardinal Minnesota 20 9 176 -0.174 -0.6 0 -1.3
Sasha Pavlovic Minnesota 38 14 526 -0.072 -0.8 0 -1.6
Jonny Flynn Minnesota 41 30 1,211 -0.051 -1.3 41 -2.6
Corey Brewer Minnesota 41 31 1,261 -0.055 -1.4 41 -2.9
Ryan Hollins Minnesota 35 17 610 -0.148 -1.9 8 -3.8
-
Is Thad Young a bad defensive player, or a player being played out of position. He's 6'8" and 220 lbs. and 22 years old. He should be playing small forward where he wouldn't be over-matched physically. But in Philadelphia, where we seem to have a penchant for picking seriously deficient coaches, he's being played almost exclusively at the 4 spot.
I think Thad is getting a bad rap because he can't defend bigger players in the post. I don't think that's his fault. I think his coach is a moron.
So what about a guy like Rose who was the same size yet was playing centers?
Rose weighed a lot more than Thad. Thad is a skinny kid, who will eventually fill out (Probably) Rose was stocky and very strong. I think like 260 or so. Maybe in 5 or 6 years Thad will fill out enough to guard these bigs, but why should the Sixers do that when they have a seven-footer and two 6-11 guys to guard them instead? Some players, like LeBron and Barkley were shorter players who could go inside because they were wide-bodies. Skinny players like Thad can't bull their way in, or keep a bull out.
Besides it's good for the Sixers IMO, to have a size advantage. It's stupid to expect Thad to guard Gasol or Bynum. He can't even handle Odom!
He is 30 pounds heavier than Thad but is shorter and has a much smaller wing span. There are not many power forwards in this league who are very strong and can bully around people. Gasol and Odom certainly are not the type to use their strength go get into position. Gasol is stick skinny and so is Odom. They use their foot work and speed to score. The days of Duncan and Barkley big men are over IMO. What power forwards are so strong that they can move him with ease? I see more KG, Gasol. Dirk types than I do Barkley types.
I thought he was the same height, 6'8" and 250 is a lot bigger than 220! If we had a time machine- who would win between Rose and Young? Rose would keep him from going inside and from getting boards. Thad is quicker and faster, but he has to be in the open floor to use his advantages.
Every good team in the league has 2 big men in at all times, the Lakers, Cavaliers and Celtics are all big teams. The Sixers are already short, since they have Elton Brand for their power forward. It makes sense to play Thad as a three because he can't guard a Garnett or Perkins. He can't guard a Shaq or a Bynum or a Gasol. If the Sixers are going to be competitive they have to match up well with the better teams. The closest player in size to Young is Tayshaun Prince. Would you play Prince as a 4?
The only thing worse than not having good big men, is having a dumb-ass coach who doesn't play them! The Sixers have three big men on their bench, two of whom are 2nd year players who show potential when they play. If the Sixers have any chance of competing they need to get bigger and they need to have a more effective offense. Clearly, the two go hand in hand. As does moving Thad to the three spot, and Iguodala to the 2.
It's not like the Sixers were winning with Thad at the 4 spot. If they were, I wouldn't think it was a problem, but how many times do you need to see the other team getting 2nd chance shots and you aren't getting any on your end before you realize you don't have enough rebounding strength? It only has to happen a couple of times a game and that's all it takes for the team to lose and for Thad to have his stats show up on the list!
What could be more simpler or easier for the Sixers than to play him as a three, and giving the other bigs the available minutes. The Sixers are guard oriented, because they're comfortable with Iverson, Williams, Green and Holiday. I understand that, but I also see that they're not winning. Just that one little change and the Sixers entire season would look completely different.