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PhillyArena Community => Philadelphia 76ers => Topic started by: bebopdeluxe on July 29, 2008, 07:12:30 AM
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...if that is the number, we can forget about anything remotely close to 5/70 for Iggy.
And - honestly - I can't see Iggy getting more than Okafor...so, 6/70 (or perhaps, 5/60, if Iggy wants a shorter deal) has got to be the top end of what Iguodala and his agent can realistically expect...
Right?
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6/72 starts at about 9.9M with annual 8% raises. That has Okafor making 600K less than Dalembert this year- which shows how Dalembert is still being soemwhat overpaid.
I see a 6/73 in Iguodala's future- which would start right at 10M.
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If you were an NBA GM, and you were picking first in a pickup game where the losing team's GM's family is killed, and the two best players in the game were Okafor and Iguodala, who would you pick?
I pick Emeka.
Here's another scenario...let's say that we did NOT get Brand, and both Okafor and Iguodala were signed to similar contracts...LB calls Stefanski and asks if we would trade Iguodala straight up for Okafor. Would you do it?
I would do it in a nanosecond.
So, in my mind, there is no way the Sixers should pay Iggy more than Okafor...although I guess I could live with 6/73 (just to make the Sixers' new drama queen happy).
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I'm not sure Okafor's deal affects Iguodala's all that much. Different players, different positions. Iguodala's the better basketball player, though, hands down.
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Sub:
1) I completely disagree that Okafor's signing a 6/72 contract does not affect Iguodala's market value.
2) The question of Iguodala being a better basketball player has nothing to do with his "market value", IMO. You may also think that Iggy is a better player than Josh Smith, but I think it can be argued very strongly that Smith's "market value" (as a 3/4 who is a big-time shotblocker) is higher than Iguodala (in a league where swingmen are much more plentiful). Look at Bogut's contract. What the heck - Diop got a 5 year, full MLE contract.
Iggy and his agent better look at the money that good-to-marginal bigs get in the NBA before he starts asking for ridiculous money.
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2) The question of Iguodala being a better basketball player has nothing to do with his "market value", IMO.
I was referring to your hypothetical, homicidal pickup game scenario.
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If you were an NBA GM, and you were picking first in a pickup game where the losing team's GM's family is killed, and the two best players in the game were Okafor and Iguodala, who would you pick?
I pick Emeka.
Here's another scenario...let's say that we did NOT get Brand, and both Okafor and Iguodala were signed to similar contracts...LB calls Stefanski and asks if we would trade Iguodala straight up for Okafor. Would you do it?
I would do it in a nanosecond.
So, in my mind, there is no way the Sixers should pay Iggy more than Okafor...although I guess I could live with 6/73 (just to make the Sixers' new drama queen happy).
In your pick-up game scenario your family gets killed. Iguodala is by far a better basketball player than Okafor and in a pick-up game his team would win 9 out of 10 times. In the NBA where they play a structured team game a big guy with some talent and game like Okafor has more value than Iggy even though Iggy is the better basketball player, so I will agree that Okafor has more market value than Iggy, Deng, Ellis, etc. Big men always do.
Every contract for an RFA affects every other one, but Okafor does not set the market for Iggy. Biedrins set the market for Okafor and Okafor basically signed for $1.5 million per year over what Biedrins got. Okafor has slightly better statistics than Biedrins, although I think Biedrins has equal or better numbers on a per minute basis as he gets shorter runs because Nelson goes to the mini-me line-ups he favors so often.
The market for Iggy is more logically linked to Ellis and Deng if you are looking for comparable players, although I know logic rarely applies in the NBA. Stefanski has a background in mortgage finance and using truly comparable players to determine Iggy's value, and adjusting for the differences between the players like a real estate appraiser, is likely how he will approach the negotiations.
Josh Smith is unique in that teams are still willing to pay him for potential he may never reach. Smith is still a tweener who does not rebound, shoot a high % or defend like a PF. Before anyone cites his blocked shots I would note that he lacks bulk and strength to deny the low block to a guy like Brand, he basket hangs to get a lot of his blocks, (that is why the top shot-blocking forward in the game never sniffs a spot on the all-defensive first or second teams) and is not known for being a good fundamental defender. He also has not shown the perimeter skills of a SF. In the right system he can thrive and anywhere he goes he will make some spectacular dunks and blocks, but he is the one guy in this RFA class who is still looked upon almost like a guy coming out of the draft and is valued more highly based on his potential than his production alone.
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Skates:
First of all, it's not my family that gets killed...
;D
Second of all, I do not agree with your premise...if the two best players are Iggy and Okafor in the game, I believe that Okafor's defensive presence and shotblocking ability will have more of an impact on the game than Iggy's athleticism. Now, if it was a one-on-one game, I think that Iggy would win easily.
To be fair, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheeky with that first example, but the second one - the more plausible example still holds...all things being equal (similar contracts, teams need both an impact swingman and an impact big), would you trade Iguodala straight up for Okafor?
I would do it in a heartbeat - and I believe that most NBA GM's would as well. In a world where teams would need both players, teams would jump on Okafor first, IMO.
And that should drive "market value", in my view.
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I am on skates side of this, opeople get blinded by height, okafor is no more a 'super star' than iguodala is, and he's not as good as you are making him out to be
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Is Okafor really much better than Dalembert?
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IMO in pick-up games guards and perimeter players/slashers have an advantage unless the big is an offensive monster, which Okafor is not. More realistically Okafor would have no place on this team with all of our bigs. If I was asked to trade Sammy and Iggy for some combination of Okafor and Wallace or Richardson, yes I would do that in a minute and toss in a first round pick to boot.
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carolina blue:
Would you trade Sammy straight up for Okafor?
I would...quickly.
jem:
I'm not blinding myself to thinking that Okafor is some kind of All-Star...but in a world where bigs get overpaid (Diop got a 5-year, full MLE deal, for crissakes), Okafor's "market value" is at least as high as Iguodala, IMO...but I respect your opinion if you do not agree with me.
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I'm not blinding myself to thinking that Okafor is some kind of All-Star...but in a world where bigs get overpaid (Diop got a 5-year, full MLE deal, for crissakes), Okafor's "market value" is at least as high as Iguodala, IMO...but I respect your opinion if you do not agree with me.
Fine...i can buy that
6 years 66 million dollars
that's what monta ellis got
To me, iguodala is worth more than monta ellis.
And that's how his agent is going to argue it as well probably.
There's a 'cache' in contracts and rightly or wrongly if igduodala makes less than ellis he'll be seen as 'less' than ellis by the majority of folks.
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I was referring to your hypothetical, homicidal pickup game scenario.
And I thought the courts I played on growing up where pretty tough. I broke my nose a few times, and there were a few fights, but nobody ever came close to getting whacked.
As per value- Okafor is more valuable because he can cover most centers and PF's. Biendins is physically overmatched by a lot of centers. In terms of production, I also think Okafor comes out ahead, but Biedrins is a good intangibles type of player, and is about 4 years younger thean Okafor.
I think they both signed for about market value since they are both good bigs with somewhat limitted ceilings. I agree with Skates that its hard to equate their values with Iguodala.
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If you think back it seems that the Tyson Chandler and Sammy D signings set the market for Biedrins and Okafor. As for Biedrins v. Okafor, I think Biedrins has more lateral and overall mobility and could play PF more easily than Okafor. Okafor would definitely do better against the power players.
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If you think back it seems that the Tyson Chandler and Sammy D
And Eddy Curry, but they aren't all three equal players even though they got equal contracts....Looking at those 3 very similar deals I think that the hornets got a nice 'bargain' on chandler, the sixers and knicks over paid and the bulls got stupid again :)
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If you were an NBA GM, and you were picking first in a pickup game where the losing team's GM's family is killed, and the two best players in the game were Okafor and Iguodala, who would you pick?
I pick Emeka.
Here's another scenario...let's say that we did NOT get Brand, and both Okafor and Iguodala were signed to similar contracts...LB calls Stefanski and asks if we would trade Iguodala straight up for Okafor. Would you do it?
I would do it in a nanosecond.
So, in my mind, there is no way the Sixers should pay Iggy more than Okafor...although I guess I could live with 6/73 (just to make the Sixers' new drama queen happy).
If Okafor is better and he has Gerald Wallace and Jason Richardson on his team how come the Sixers made the playoffs and the Bobcats suck?
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If Okafor is better and he has Gerald Wallace and Jason Richardson on his team how come the Sixers made the playoffs and the Bobcats suck?
Mo Cheeks and Andre miller obviously :)
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Okafor is a nice big man, but he is what he is and will be. He's at his ceiling. And there are more people like him than some would think. I'd even say that almost every team has an Okafor-level of big man on their team, some with more upside. Iguodala, at least IMO, hasn't come near to his ceiling, and is a potential All-Star player. There aren't as many Iguodala-type players in my estimation. So to me, he's at least as valuable, if not moreso.
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In terms of an Iguodala/Okafor swap, Okafor would have fit a huge gaping hole in the frontcourt befoer Brand was signed, and Iguodala as a swing is more easily replaced.
That said, Iguodala has much more upside as is a potential impact starter. He could be a big 3 type player on a contender (the 3rd of the 3), whereas Okafor will always just be a solid center. He will never be an impact player.
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The SG position is easier to replace. I don't believe the same can be said for what Andre Iguodala can do from the SG position, however.
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The SG position is easier to replace. I don't believe the same can be said for what Andre Iguodala can do from the SG position, however.
In general it's easier to get a 'replacement level/league average' SG...but does anyone think Iguodala is ONLY a league average SG? If so then that's a different argument :)
For comparisons sake, I consider willie green a below replacement level SG
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If you think back it seems that the Tyson Chandler and Sammy D
And Eddy Curry, but they aren't all three equal players even though they got equal contracts....Looking at those 3 very similar deals I think that the hornets got a nice 'bargain' on chandler, the sixers and knicks over paid and the bulls got stupid again :)
I ignored Eddy Curry on purpose, mainly because he was a scoring big man whereas Chandler, Dalembert, Biedrins and Okafor are more defense/rebounding types. Chandler and Dalembert were both paid in large part on potential and Chandler has definitely outpaced Sammy over time.
If you were an NBA GM, and you were picking first in a pickup game where the losing team's GM's family is killed, and the two best players in the game were Okafor and Iguodala, who would you pick?
I pick Emeka.
Here's another scenario...let's say that we did NOT get Brand, and both Okafor and Iguodala were signed to similar contracts...LB calls Stefanski and asks if we would trade Iguodala straight up for Okafor. Would you do it?
I would do it in a nanosecond.
So, in my mind, there is no way the Sixers should pay Iggy more than Okafor...although I guess I could live with 6/73 (just to make the Sixers' new drama queen happy).
If Okafor is better and he has Gerald Wallace and Jason Richardson on his team how come the Sixers made the playoffs and the Bobcats suck?
There are a number of commentators and scout types who are not fond of Richardson's game. He has impressive stats, but is alleged to get them at the expense of team success. I don't hear that much regarding Wallace, but it is a frequent criticism of Richardson, fair or not.
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I wouldn't call biedrins a defensive/rebounding type...if he is the warriors are screwed.
There are a number of commentators and scout types who are not fond of Richardson's game. He has impressive stats, but is alleged to get them at the expense of team success. I don't hear that much regarding Wallace, but it is a frequent criticism of Richardson, fair or not.
Well I know I always take commentators and unnamed scouts as gospel. Did you know that there are STILL guys in the league who can't pronouncer Iguodala OR Dalembert properly?
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Did you know that there are STILL guys in the league who can't pronouncer Iguodala OR Dalembert properly?
Based on the player introductions, some of Sammy's teammates still cannot pronounce his name- including Iguodala (he pronounces it like Bert and Ernie- Sam would have a great personality for that show.)
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Now, if they want to tell me that richardson seems to be a bad impact on the team rebounding, i'll accept that, but i'm not seeing the 'selfishness' that's suppposedly there...he might be a defensive liability but i would think if he was so selfish offensively there'd be less assissted FG when he's on the court, worse shooting percentages, etc...
I can see an argument being made that he is a defensive liability, I don't see support for the 'allegations' made by said scounts and commentators
http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHA6D.HTM
Question...who had the biggest contract on the bobcats last year?
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jem:
I am fine with Iggy getting more than Ellis...I am fine with 6/72....that is MUCH different than 5/70.
sixerscan:
Welcome to the forum, bro...nice to have you here!
My primary argument is not that Okafor is necessarily a better player than Iguodala...it is that, given the relative lack of legit 6' 10" power guys who can average 13/10/2 in the NBA, Okafor's replacement/market value is higher than Iguodala. Okafor finished in the top 10 in the NBA last season in both blocks and rebounds - one of only five guys who did that (Howard, Camby, Duncan...and our very own Sammy D). While I am certainly not trying to discount Iguodala's stat-stuffing contributions to the Sixers success, he still has some material holes in his game - especially as a SG, which is where he is going to play out his contract (outside/3pt shooting and his handle/driving ability in the halfcourt being the two most glaring).
Whether or not you agree with the premise that "2's and 3's are a dime a dozen", history has shown that average bigs get paid at least as much as above-average swingmen...and above-average bigs get paid as much as elite swingmen....and I think that Okafor is more of an above-average big than Iggy is an elite swingman.
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carolina blue:
Would you trade Sammy straight up for Okafor?
I would...quickly.
I'm not sure that I would.
I think that Dalembert's style and strengths might be a better compliment to Brand than Okafor's. The age difference isn't much, and Okafor has had some injury issues (back, I believe). Okafor scored a little more last year, but he took 200 more shots. He's also a terrible FT shooter.
I think that I've talked myself out of it, so I guess I wouldn't make the trade.
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A) I'd take Okafor over Dalembert is less than a second.
B) Okafor missed time in 2006 due to an ankle injury NOT back.
C) I don't believe Okafor's contract will make a huge difference on Iguodala. If we're comparing apples to apples, the contracts that Kevin Martin and Monte Ellis signed would be far more comparable.
D) I still expect Iguodala's numbers to come in around 6 years/$70MIL and I am ok with that.
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I wouldn't call biedrins a defensive/rebounding type...if he is the warriors are screwed.
Comparing Biedrins and Chandler, Biedrins has a slightly higher FG% (.003) and BPG, Chandler has higher PPG and RPG, but plays more minutes. On a per 48 min basis Biedrins is the number 3 rebounder in the league, well above Sammy, and Okafor and a little ahead of Chandler. Sammy and Okafor block shots better than either Biedrins or Chandler, but have lower FG%. He fits in the same category with the other three, he shoots FG's very efficiently (tops in the league), rebounds at a very high rate, blocks shots at a reasonably high rate, scores in the low double figures area and can't shoot FT's. I know blocked shots are not a great indicator of defense, Sammy being a great example of that, but he is about the only guy on GS who appears to be playing defense.
I read that some portion of his $63 million contract is incentive based, which allows room for him to improve, since he is just 22, if he is going to earn the full amount.
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I think that Dalembert's style and strengths might be a better compliment to Brand than Okafor's. The age difference isn't much, and Okafor has had some injury issues (back, I believe). Okafor scored a little more last year, but he took 200 more shots. He's also a terrible FT shooter.
Of all of the non-superstar, second tier centers in the league, who would be the best complement to Brand? I am defining that tier pretty broadly as any reasonably productive starter not named Howard, Duncan, Shaq (for old time's sake), Oden (on potential) or Stoudemire. Would it be a mobile shot blocker/rebounder/garbage scorer like Sam, Biedrins or Chandler, a high post guy capable like Bogut, Gasol or Brad Miller (insert Brad Miller "high" post joke here), or a bulkier rebounder like Kaman, Okafor or Al Jefferson? Maybe a unique guy like Rasheed or Okur? and if you pick a guy like Jefferson does that mean we have a potential perfect complement on our bench in Speights?
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I'd take Chandler over all of them. And I don't totally trust Biedrins numbers, partly because he hasn't proven to be consistent. He'll have a run of games where he's getting five to six boards a night, then have 16.
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Sam would be perfect if he played within his limitations. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen. Maybe Sam will be happy with all of the easy dunks and O Boards that can get now that Brand is here- but I have a hunch that he will be complaining about his lack of touches.
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I'd take Chandler over all of them. And I don't totally trust Biedrins numbers, partly because he hasn't proven to be consistent. He'll have a run of games where he's getting five to six boards a night, then have 16.
I like Chandler as well, he is a better straight up defender than Sammy, and more mobile and longer than Okafor, plus a very efficient shooter from the field. Vintage Brad Miller would have been a good match up as well, he had more of a mean streak than Gasol or Bogut to complement his other skills. Bogut still has potential to be more, but I think Gasol ahs been pretty much exposed as a big wussy. Biedrins minutes vary greatly as does the way the team plays from game to game, sometimes they play a small line-up, sometimes it is a miniature one. It is hard to say whether his numbers would be more consistent if he got more consistent minutes or vice versa.
One guy I did not mention was Bynum. Some of the stories that come out of the LA papers really make me wonder if the kid has his head on straight, and if he doesn't, it sounds like it might be the fault of the owner's son. Some weird stuff going on in that organization. Jem is our local man on the street for LA goings on, what is the take on Bynum out there?
Sam would be perfect if he played within his limitations. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen. Maybe Sam will be happy with all of the easy dunks and O Boards that can get now that Brand is here- but I have a hunch that he will be complaining about his lack of touches.
Isn't that pretty much what Chandler does?
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Now that Ellis, Biedrins, and Okafor have re-signed, it can't be long before the other big name RFAs resolve their situations. Actually, Deng's August 4th deadline is coming up quickly.