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PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: Reality on July 17, 2008, 10:21:13 PM
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Woverine, ziggy, mlb watchers,
Have the Cardinals done it again? Yes they have.
Taken a journeyman pitcher and producing career best stats by far.
Kyle Lohse
12-2
3.33 era by far his career best.
Used to be Dave Duncan. What is in the pitching water in St. Louis?
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Why isn't it Dave Duncan any more?
And of course W/L and ERA are the two most important stats when evaluating a pitcher...
It probably has something to do with pitching in heaven
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I thought Dave Duncan retired/left the Redbirds.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Duncan_%28baseball_player%29
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And of course W/L and ERA are the two most important stats when evaluating a pitcher...
His peripherals are good as well (low WHIP, decent BAA). He's having a pretty good year.
It probably has something to do with pitching in heaven
St. Louis is a pitchers park, but not an absurd pitchers park. It's currently ranked as the 10th best pitchers park, only 3 ahead of Citizens Bank Park.
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And of course W/L and ERA are the two most important stats when evaluating a pitcher...
His peripherals are good as well (low WHIP, decent BAA). He's having a pretty good year.
It probably has something to do with pitching in heaven
St. Louis is a pitchers park, but not an absurd pitchers park. It's currently ranked as the 10th best pitchers park, only 3 ahead of Citizens Bank Park.
Sorry, was meant more of a joke (a running one actually) regarding how st louis is 'baseball heaven' according to one former phillies 3rd baseman who thought a 150 million dollar contract offer didn't show 'committment' to him :)
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Lohse is having a great year by following the usual Duncan M.O.
Keep the ball down.
He's been hittable, to a certain extent, but he's kept the ball in the ballpark (thanks to staying low in the zone - which makes it harder to lift pitches - and having half of his games at Busch).
And he hasn't been walking people. Only 2.2 bases on balls per nine innings.
He hasn't been as good as his record suggests, but if you keep your walks down and the ball in the park, you can afford to give up some hits ... and the hits haven't hurt him because he's consistently at the other team's knees (with his pitches).
He doesn't have the best stuff, to be sure, but his strategy is gold.
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Lohse is having a great year by following the usual Duncan M.O.
Keep the ball down.
As opposed to other pitching coaches around the ML who espouse that keeping the ball up and belt high is the way to go?
What Duncan has always insisted on is zone pitching, and if you have a big, pitching-friendly park, to use it. The other thing that Duncan has done is introduced the split-finger to many of his pitchers, and to scout out the best type of pitchers that suit the park and the style to begin with. All his pitchers have to have at least three above average pitches and the guts to throw any of them at any time.
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As opposed to other pitching coaches around the ML who espouse that keeping the ball up and belt high is the way to go?
No ... it's called keeping the ball low and pitching to contact rather than throwing it by a guy for the strikeout. Duncan has always preferred sinkerballers for this reason. He wants his pitchers to stay down in the zone and allow grounders rather than try and go for the K. This is due, at least in part, to the fact that this style of pitching tends to keep pitch counts lower. A power-pitcher who generates strikeouts throws a lot of pitches. Sinkerballers do not.
Take Jason Marquis, for example. When he came over from the Braves, he threw his four-seamer a ton. It was his favorite pitch - well, other than that hanging curveball he loves to throw. Duncan got him to switch to a two-seam sinker and he was more effective (at least for awhile). He did the same thing with Carpenter.
And yes, JoMal, he does like to teach the splitter. Great pitch, in that it dives out of the zone. If you throw it correctly, it should hit the dirt right after crossing the plate. Another pitch thrown low.
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Doubt you guys have heard of this rookie but he is flat bringing it as an Angels reliever.
If Francisco Rodriguez bails next year for more money, and I'm sure he will, no problemo.
I like this guy better anyways.
Jose Arredondo age 24 from Dominican Republic.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=29113
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Well you can definitely project a guy long term after 22 innings...
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You mean 24 innings spread out over 22 games?
Sure can. He's good.
Been in Angels organization since 2002. Pitching since 2004.
I'll put him in against the batter of your choice.
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Woverine, ziggy, mlb watchers,
Have the Cardinals done it again? Yes they have.
Taken a journeyman pitcher and producing career best stats by far.
Kyle Lohse
12-2
3.33 era by far his career best.
Used to be Dave Duncan. What is in the pitching water in St. Louis?
Ever heard of the term LUCK? That is all this is. He has never before been more than a #4 starter, and that is all he will ever be. Not to diminish Dave Duncan, because he has a proven track record, but this is 90% luck, and 10% Duncan. I will take a bet that Lohse will revert, and become the .500 pitcher he has always been, and nobody will pay much attention nor care, and all anyone will remember is that Lohse was great when pitching for Duncan, ergo Duncan is a genius.
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Jose Arredondo doing the 8th inning of a tie game the Angles went on to win against the Yankees.
He was helped a ton by ARon getting thrown out trying to swipe third. One of those "what was he thinking" plays unless the manager ordered it.
Angels flat own the Yankees.
Arredondo now 32 appearances with an 0.95 era. ;)
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A. The ANgels flat out own pretty much everyone this year
B. THe yankees aren't that good
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A. Most everyone, true. But not 8 of 10
B. Only team to have winning record vs Yankees since 1996.
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Jose Arredondo striking out XNady and Godzilla to snuff the Yankees 7th today. 15th hold.
45 games 47 punchouts 1.04 whip.
His ERA has mushroomed up to 1.39. ;)
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zig Wolf bods 'Mal,
Since we last looked at Lohse hes gone from 12-2 to 13-6
3.33 to 3.80.
Did zigs excellent scouting skills nail this guy or has he just run into a stretch of totally sucky run support from the Cards?
zig I'm calling Johan Santana the Cy Young award winner at this point. Screw the stats, he's been nails and the Mets run support has been mostly pathetic.
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^^ Wolf can you, Polar Bear or the Terrorist give eyewitness accounts?
Not that t.v. isn't just, if not in some cases more accurate.
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zig Wolf bods 'Mal,
Since we last looked at Lohse hes gone from 12-2 to 13-6
3.33 to 3.80.
Did zigs excellent scouting skills nail this guy or has he just run into a stretch of totally sucky run support from the Cards?
zig I'm calling Johan Santana the Cy Young award winner at this point. Screw the stats, he's been nails and the Mets run support has been mostly pathetic.
AL it is Cliff Lee, though Roy Halladay (Bret Saberhagen reincarnated) could make a good argument. In the NL it is Brandon Webb or Tim Lincecum. Webb because of his wins, Lincecum because he is the most dominate. Poor Jake Peavy. Great #'s and he is 9-10.
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It's just an indication of how bass ackwards the award is that wins count.
BTW - johan santana has a strong argument in the NL as well, pitching with one of the worst bullpens in the league for support.
Cliff Lee could have an era of over 4 and a K:9 under 3 and a K:B of less than one but with 21 wins he'd be a shoo in.
I think the BBWAA is possibly stupider than the voters in the other two major sports (no NHL is not a major sport)
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It's just an indication of how bass ackwards the award is that wins count.
BTW - johan santana has a strong argument in the NL as well, pitching with one of the worst bullpens in the league for support.
Cliff Lee could have an era of over 4 and a K:9 under 3 and a K:B of less than one but with 21 wins he'd be a shoo in.
I think the BBWAA is possibly stupider than the voters in the other two major sports (no NHL is not a major sport)
I have to differ with your opinion of BBWAA of America voting for Cy Young. They haven't been perfect, but there hasn't been a grave injustice in a very long time. Some people point to Lamar Hoyt in 1983, and Pete Vukovich in 1982 as the shining examples, but it isn't that cut and dried. Only pitcher close to Hoyt was Jack Morris, but really Hoyt was better. Vukovich won but look at the competition that year. It was a weak year, no one else really deserved it. I look at the picks, and I just don't see stupid selections.
In the last 10 years (20 picks) I would make an argument for Santana over Colon, but it isn't absolute. Colon was a dominate pitcher, but so was Santana. It is very close, and no great injustice in Colon winning.
You could make the argument for Pedro over Barry Zito, but Zito was great that year. Yes he led league in wins, but he had a 2.75 ERA, and 182 K's.
You could also make a 4 pitcher argument in 1998 for Maddux, Smoltz or Kevin Brown over Glavine, but once again Glavine was great pitcher. Lead the league in wins, and he had very good ERA (2.47), WHIP (1.20) and K/BB (2.12). Maybe the other 3 were better, but Glavine was their equal.
Santana has an argument, but he has not had a better season than Lincecum. For goodness sake SF is on pace for 95 losses or so. With a little help he could have 25 wins. You could make an argument about Webb not being deserving, but he pitches in the best hitters park in the NL, and he is clearly one of the most dominate.
As far as Cliff Lee, maybe the BBWAA would give it to him with terrible ERA etc, but that isn't the case here. He is the best SP in the AL, hands down this year.
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Santana has an argument, but he has not had a better season than Lincecum. For goodness sake SF is on pace for 95 losses or so. With a little help he could have 25 wins.
I completely forgot about Lincecum. On this years Giants, with Bochy as coach, 19-2 is phenominal. Sanatana could reasonably be 17-3, but Lincecum has got it.
Webb, dont know what to say about AZs implosion.
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I still might vote for Santana. Another gem tonight 8 ip 1 er for the impolding Mets. Will wait to see how final two or three starts go.
Webb really went into a tailspin including two in a row when it counted most, vs the Dogers.
Lincicums last 10 starts have been against the absolute scrubs of the league. Padres 3Xs, ATL, Colo and AZ in tailspin mode all twice.
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Lincicums last 10 starts have been against the absolute scrubs of the league. Padres 3Xs, ATL, Colo and AZ in tailspin mode all twice.
As opposed to Santana, who has washington twice, atlanta, houston twice, san diego, and pittsburgh in his last 10.
lincecum's been the better pitcher this year. It's close, but IMO it goes to the 24 year old.
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Doubt you guys have heard of this rookie but he is flat bringing it as an Angels reliever.
If Francisco Rodriguez bails next year for more money, and I'm sure he will, no problemo.
I like this guy better anyways.
Jose Arredondo age 24 from Dominican Republic.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=29113
This guy has been a bit better
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8262
And so has this guy
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7624
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As for the NL Cy Young, while Webb has won more on a better team, what Lincecum has done is worth rewarding.
He lost 3-2 last night, mainly on a two run triple by Justin Upton he gave up in the sixth, after which he took full responsibility for the loss and gave credit to the hitter on making contact on a nasty change-up off the plate. Only problem is that his outfielder, Eugenio Velez, took several steps in so the ball sailed over his head. He would have easily caught it if he had not moved. Randy Johnson also nailed him on the left hand on a bunt attempt in that game, but he still got a complete game.
Just as well. Lincecum left five other games this year with the lead only to have his bull-pen blow the win for him.
17-4 and leading the majors in strikeouts and ERA for a team with a 68-85 record.
If he does not get the Cy Young, there be some 'xplainin' to do.
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No more so than usual. The fact that won loss record seems to be one of the most important criteria (unless your name is roger clemens) in voting for the cy young is nuts.
And on the note of fat loud mouthed pitchers, someone tell Curt Schilling to STFU...listening to him talk about selfish players who are all about themselves is like listening to Heidi Fleiss argue against prostitution.
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This guy has been a bit better
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8262
And so has this guy
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7624
:o How does Oakland keep doing it? Best small market team consistenlywise in MLB in the last 40 years.
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This guy has been a bit better
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8262
And so has this guy
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7624
:o How does Oakland keep doing it? Best small market team consistenlywise in MLB in the last 40 years.
First off, both Tony La Russa and Dave Duncan got the ball rolling with their management of young players, in particular, and by bringing in or developing poorly used veterans from elsewhere. With the system in place, the coaches and managers, who all seem to get promoted up from the minors once Duncan and La Russa left, continue the development of the players.
Lately, Billy Bean has been trading his barely veteran, but extremely promising, skilled players for prospects, prospects, prospects. The trades of Nick Swisher, Dan Haren, and Rick Harden this past year has brought something like the top twenty prospects from Arizona, Chicago WS and Chicago Cubs to the Bay Area, and earlier with trades to Atlanta and St. Louis for Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder, respectively. The result is a franchise deep in talent, as evidence of my own Sacramento River Cats Triple A team affiliated with Oakland, which just won its second 3-A championship in a row after winning something like five of the last seven Pacific Coast League Championships. This with 150 transactions this last year alone.
Its the system. They spend money, but it is in the development of players who cost little at this point of their careers. Once they become known, they are future building chips for Oakland. The one, major flaw in all of this? The team never keeps its talent long enough to get the veteran savvy needed to win anything other then a playoff game once in a while.
The A's are looking for a baseball only facility to build somewhere in Northern California to get away from Mount Davis and the Raiders. They had a deal in Fremont that recently fell threw, so are again looking. The River Cats have had the highest attendance of any triple A team in the country since they came to Sacramento in 2000.
<hint, hint>
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Don't forget Sandy Alderson, who was Beanes mentor
The A's strategy combined with a team willing to spend money....could you imagine how good an organization would be.
Oh right, we don't have to imagine, just look to the Boston Red Sox
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zig bods anyone,
It might be quite difficult to pinpoint since a good portion would be a judgement call. That having been said, is the 2008 Mets bullpen the chokiest of all time for a pennant contending team?
4-2 lead into the 7th today and still 4-3 into the 8th vs Braves. Quickly 7-4 and a loss.
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Not sure where it fits historically, but here's an interesting tidbit about how bad the mets bullpen is (and conversely possibly how GOOD the phillies bullpen and late inning offense might be
In fact, according to Bill James Online, here's how those standings would look if games were six innings:
Teams W-L GB
Mets 84-52 --
Phillies 71-62 11.5
Yep, you read that right. If games were six innings, the Mets would be leading this division by 11? games.
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4 years 41 million dollars?
The Walt Jocketty era is TRULY over
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No way. The Cards turned Jeff Weaver around to the point of World Series MVP.
They can do anything.
Lohse finished pretty well. Last 10 games overall he did fine.
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Seriously Cashman, how much money is worth the steinbrenner craziness? You'd get another job and you'd get good money and you'd be able to run the franchise instead of sort of running a franchise.
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Woverine, ziggy, mlb watchers,
Have the Cardinals done it again? Yes they have.
Taken a journeyman pitcher and producing career best stats by far.
Kyle Lohse
12-2
3.33 era by far his career best.
Used to be Dave Duncan. What is in the pitching water in St. Louis?
zig are you a pitching genius or what is up?
Lohse starts 3-0 and I'm thinking you are off on this one.
Now he's 4-6 with a 4.14 era. Not a stanky ERA and tough loss in his last decision and last outing, but still....
I'm looking for the Jared Weaver thread. :D
Ever heard of the term LUCK? That is all this is. He has never before been more than a #4 starter, and that is all he will ever be. Not to diminish Dave Duncan, because he has a proven track record, but this is 90% luck, and 10% Duncan. I will take a bet that Lohse will revert, and become the .500 pitcher he has always been, and nobody will pay much attention nor care, and all anyone will remember is that Lohse was great when pitching for Duncan, ergo Duncan is a genius.