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PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: Reality on June 10, 2008, 12:27:03 PM
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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1099826
Curt Schilling?s new perspective on Kobe Bryant
A unique perspective of Game 2 of the NBA Finals, and one of its chief participants, popped up on the Internet yesterday.
Red Sox [team stats] pitcher Curt Schilling [stats], whose seats for Sunday?s showdown at the Garden between the Celtics [team stats] and Lakers were right next to the Los Angeles bench, weighed in with some of his observations on his blog: 38pitches.com.
Schilling touched on a variety of sights and sounds from where he was perched, ranging from his take of the referees mishandling Kevin Garnett?s technical foul, to an admiration of Lakers forward Lamar Odom, and many of the Celtics players, to the amount of trash-talking between players throughout the game.
The most pointed of Schilling?s comments were directed at Lakers star Kobe Bryant and the way he conducted himself throughout the night.
Schilling wrote: ?From the first tip until about 4 minutes left in the game I saw and heard this guy (complain to) his teammates. Every TO he came to the bench (ticked), and a few of them he went to other guys and yelled about something they weren?t doing, or something they did wrong. No dialog (sic) about ?hey let?s go, let?s get after it? or whatever. He spent the better part of 3.5 quarters (ticked) off and ranting at the non-execution or lack of, of his team. Then when they made what almost was a historic run in the 4th, during a TO, he got down on the floor and basically said ?Let?s (expletive) go, right now, right here? or something to that affect (sic).
?I am not making this observation in a good or bad way, I have no idea how the guys in the NBA play or do things like this, but I thought it was a fascinating bit of insight for me to watch someone in another sport who is in the position of a team leader and how he interacted with his team and teammates. Watching the other 11 guys, every time out it was high fives and ?Hey nice work, let?s get after it? or something to that affect (sic). He walked off the floor, obligatory skin contact on the high five, and sat on the bench stone faced or (ticked) off, the whole game.
?Just weird to see another sport and how it all works. I would assume that?s his style and how he plays and what works for him because when I saw the leader board for scoring in the post season his name sat up top at 31+ a game, can?t argue with that. But as a fan I was watching the whole thing, Kobe, his teammates and then the after effects of conversations. He?d yell at someone, make a point, or send a message, turn and walk away, and more than once the person on the other end would roll eyes or give a ?whatever dude? look.
?Let me reiterate that this is from a complete basketball newbie, so for all I know this could be exactly how these guys play this game and interact with each other.?
When contacted yesterday Schilling wanted to make it clear that the observations were based on a ?new basketball fan?s observation, period,? adding in an e-mail, ?The validity of it is based on perspective.?
rbradford@bostonherald.com
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Oh the irony. Schilling talking about leadership.
I'm a huge schilling fan, still am to this day. But the guy's a huge media whore, and a phony. He doesn't know a thing about leadership.
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I'm glad you said it Derek, I was holding off for fear I'd look like I was just a Laker homer getting defensive about Kobe.
To me, this is one a-hole telling another a-hole he's an a-hole. Great.
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Oh the irony. Schilling talking about leadership.
I'm a huge schilling fan, still am to this day. But the guy's a huge media whore, and a phony. He doesn't know a thing about leadership.
DE-Nied! 1st team in history to come back from 0-3 and against the Skankies at that. Shill knows some about leadership in action.
(http://media4.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041024/041024_schilling_hmed_4p.hmedium.jpg)
Now as to his being a phony and an A-hole. No argument from me. His congress criticism of Canseco and the steroids abuse sealed that. I also do not believe he is as naive to the NBA as he acts in his take on Kobme. But i still like it. ;)
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DE-Nied! 1st team in history to come back from 0-3 and against the Skankies at that. Shill knows some about leadership in action.
being a great baseball player doesn't make you a leader (otherwise his observations about Kobe would be irrelevant). He wasn't a leader on the Sox.
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DE-Nied! 1st team in history to come back from 0-3 and against the Skankies at that. Shill knows some about leadership in action.
being a great baseball player doesn't make you a leader (otherwise his observations about Kobe would be irrelevant). He wasn't a leader on the Sox.
Not any different than Barr-dawg being the leader of the Spurs...you been drinking some of that Laker juice, Derek?
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You apparantly missed Shilldawgs Gm 6 bloody ankle 7 inning 1 run performance.
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and.....still not relevant when talking about leadership.
thanks, though.
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I think it is very relevant. To take the risk permanent damage by playing through any injury so you can help your team in a must-win game . . . that's impressive.
Schilling pitched through part of Game 6 in great pain because one of the stitches that were supposed to hold a dislocated tendon in place was actually threaded through a nerve. And after having the stitch replaced in the locker room, he returned to the mound.
You may not like Schilling in front of a microphone (I know I don't), but in that playoff season, he gave more than he was expected to give. I would say his presence on that team was a huge factor. Don't you remember all of the soundbytes from Red Sox players talking about Schill being a "warrior" after that game?
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I think it is very relevant. To take the risk permanent damage by playing through any injury so you can help your team in a must-win game . . . that's impressive.
Impressive? Yes. Tough? Yes. A leader? No.
Playing admirably through pain doesn't make you a leader when you exhibited no leadership characteristics during the rest of your 19 year career. Schilling was never a leader in the clubhouse. He was never a guy who mentored younger pitchers. He was never a guy who teammates looked to for advice in big moments. He was never inspirational for his team. Throughout his career, Curt was never liked in the locker room, and often times never respected as a teammate (pitcher yes, teammate no). If you're going to take a guy who had that kind of "influence" in the locker room, then no singular event, regardless of the stage, is going to make you a leader.
There's a reason it's called leading. Curt was never that presence in the clubhouse. He was an amazing pitcher, and one of the best big game pitchers of his era. A leader he was not.
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Impressive? Yes. Tough? Yes. A leader? No.
Playing admirably through pain doesn't make you a leader when you exhibited no leadership characteristics during the rest of your 19 year career. Schilling was never a leader in the clubhouse. He was never a guy who mentored younger pitchers. He was never a guy who teammates looked to for advice in big moments. He was never inspirational for his team. Throughout his career, Curt was never liked in the locker room, and often times never respected as a teammate (pitcher yes, teammate no). If you're going to take a guy who had that kind of "influence" in the locker room, then no singular event, regardless of the stage, is going to make you a leader.
There's a reason it's called leading. Curt was never that presence in the clubhouse. He was an amazing pitcher, and one of the best big game pitchers of his era. A leader he was not.
You gotta love Google.
1. A Teammate of Curt Schilling
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070606&content_id=2009769&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos
"He's a great team leader," Boston shortstop Julio Lugo said.
2. Schilling the Mentor (Yes I know it's just a blog)
http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/2007/08/devil-rays-pitcher-curt-schilling.html
"But Schilling has always been a mentor to younger players, and Tampa Bay is where a lot of young pitchers are at. 'The only other option would be a situation like here [Tampa Bay] where you have a tremendous young nucleus of pitchers, young players, a good manager, and good people where my last year could be spent having an impact on guys far beyond my playing days.'"
3. Schilling the Mentor (This one's nice and juicy)
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060221&content_id=1317758&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos
4. Schilling's Clubhouse persona
http://www.markgrace.com/bio_dbacks.html
5. Schilling Mentoring Brandon Webb
http://magazine.stack.com/TheIssue/Article/5275/Interview_with_Brandon_Webb.aspx
Many lessons learned early in his career came from Curt Schilling, who served as Webb's mentor in 2003-Webb's first season with Arizona and Schilling's last. Webb has a weakness for what can be described charitably as comfort foods [on game-days he favors pancakes and eggs from IHOP]. But Schilling, now 41, stressed to him the importance of maintaining peak physical condition. On Schillings advice, Webb began a rigorous off-season training program that included throwing the ball more than 100 times a day. "It really helped me toward the end of the season," Webb told Baseball Digest. "I felt a lot stronger."
Look, I know the whole Phillies situation didn't end well. But you're talking very unequivocally here . . . I mean, I'm basing my opinion on things I've read and heard over the years. Schilling has been a leader everywhere he's been; it just so happens that he thought Philly's management sucked and asked for a trade. But hey, Padilla was pretty good for a while there.
I am on board the "Schilling's a media whore" train though. And his position on Kobe is pretty inane, IMO. Who cares what he thinks?
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Look, I know the whole Phillies situation didn't end well
I actually agreed with Curt when he left the Phillies. He was dead on with his assessment of management, and was on the right side of the argument. This has nothing to do with that.
I mean, I'm basing my opinion on things I've read and heard over the years
As am I. I followed him very closely when he was with the Phillies (obviously) and when he was with the Diamondbacks. I have heard countless stories about him being a divisive force and a destraction in the locker room.
again, just because a guy's great (which he is) and performed admirably with injury (which he did) doesn't make him a leader. By that definition, Terrell Owens would be a leader (especially considering what he did to come back from his injury for the Eagles in the super bowl).
You can google and find quotes to support your arguments, but that's hardly proof. I can do the same as well, and "prove" the opposite:
Former teammate Mitch Williams on Schilling's locker room presence:
http://www.phillymag.com/blogs/philly/2007/10/16/williams-keep-schilling-away-from-the-phillies/
But how much are you going to get out of him, with the fact that he has been hurt? If I am the Phillies, I wouldn?t do it based on that alone. Then you add in the fact that he is a bad guy in the clubhouse, and there is no reason to add him. The one thing they don?t want to mess with is the the atmosphere of the clubhouse, and that would definitely mess with it.
Here's a lengthy one from John Kruk:
http://www.patsfans.com/molori/display_story.php?story_id=2728
That's Curt. He's going to say whatever he feels like saying because he thinks he's always right. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks. The thing here is that Curt is not right. Piniella has never left the game. How can he be out of touch? Curt needs to stop talking so much and concentrate on what he needs to do to come back and pitch."
Kruk says that he and Schilling were "not really close" as teammates with the Phillies. "I played with guys in Philly who liked to fight, but we never looked for a fight," says the 44 year-old Kruk. "Curt is just adding fuel to the fire. I don't know why he would want to continue this. I mean, it seems like Curt has ample opportunities to hear himself on radio, TV and in the newspaper."
Schilling was equally vociferous when he played in Philadelphia, but Kruk says that veteran leadership ruled. "I know Boston has Jason Varitek, but we had (catcher) Darren Daulton, the best leader I ever saw. When Curt would talk too much, Darren would take him aside and tell him that we were not about that. When you're young, you listen."
Kruk says that Schilling's affinity for the spotlight has rubbed some former teammates the wrong way. He states, "When people become successful, they don't necessarily become smarter.
I'm not around the Red Sox, but I've talked to people who played with Curt and they do resent that he talks so much. In fact, a former Phillies teammate still wants a piece of him. Look, of all the pitchers of the last 10 or 15 years, Curt would be the guy I'd want to pitch a big game, but the rest of the time, he says a lot of things he shouldn't say."
Or, the best, from former Phillies GM Ed Wade (he said this while Curt was still a Phillie):
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0903/128.html
"He's a horse every fifth day and a horse's ass the other four."
Look, Curt Schilling is one of my favorite pitchers of all time. I actually like his outspoken persona. But he's an attention whore, not a leader, and and for him to come out and say that Kobe's body language is bad and he's not supporting his teammates well enough is ludicrous, and EXACTLY the type of thing Curt would do (RE: get more attention for himself). This is the same Curt Schilling who used to cover his head with a towel whenever a reliever went into the game for him (getting on air every time, and showing oh-so-much support and confidence to your teammates).
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Okay, Derek, Okay. *in soothing tone*
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Very simple question for Ted and Reality, since his world series/bloody sock pitching performance was used as reasoning why he's a leader:
Is Terrell Owens a leader?
I'm also not sure what the point of ted's last reply was. Not everyone who disagrees with Ted needs to be soothed. Living with so many women has given you a warped sense of argumentation.
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I'm just not sure what else I'm supposed to do with your arguments.
You say Schilling was never considered a leader, never mentored young pitchers.
I present a differing opinion.
You say, "No, he wasn't a leader."
I present evidence.
You say, "No, he wasn't a leader; I've followed his whole career." And then you present evidence from Mitch Williams and John Kruk, two of the biggest asses outside of Curt Schilling.
Then you post a comment from Ed Wade, the GM of the Phillies, after just telling me that Curt Schilling was dead on in his negative assessment of Phillies management. (Can you do something about getting us a "guffaw" emoticon?)
I agree that the sock incident alone doesn't prove Schilling is a leader. But I'm not relying on that as my only evidence now am I? You know I'm not, so don't try to ignore my evidence by falsely restating my position in a "very simple question."
If TO had a history of being a mentor to younger players and a good locker room presence, I'd say yes, he's a leader, but of course, he is not. Funny that you picked another Philadelphia star who left under unhappy circumstances, though. Are we seeing the real reason behind this thread? Is the next rebuttal going to involve Charles Barkley?
Oh, and Derek, a polygamy joke? You're better than that. Living with so much sports futility has given you a lazy sense of humor. For future reference, I have a huge head (hat size is "8"), am about 35 pounds overweight, and have toenail fungus. That ought to help you be more original.
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Never mentoring younger pitchers may have been slightly too strong. I'll concede that one.
That being said, I don't feel that one quote from one teammate proves he is a leader in the clubhouse. To be a leader in the clubhouse, you have to demand respect. You have to support your teammates. You have to be a calming influence, a guy able to help others focus. Kruk's comments about Darren Daulton are dead on. HE was a leader. He's now certifiably psychotic, but when in that locker room, he commanded respect. People listened. Curt might have some people listen to him, but he has just as many roll their eyes when he speaks as he does who listens. That, to me, isn't a leader.
I also don't agree with calling Kruk a ass. He always came off to me as a likable character, and I don't recall ever hearing any problems with him in the clubhouse.
Curt's problem with Philly management, which he stated publicly numerous times, was that he didn't feel that were doing everything they could to win, and that they weren't trying to win at all costs. I'm not sure how that contradicts what Ed Wade said about Curt being an ass. Is it possible that the Phillies management was doing a bad job AND Curt Schilling's an ass? I certainly don't see the two being mutually exclusive.
The reason Terrell Owens was brought up was twofold. One, he put himself at career-threatening risk bringing himself back from his fractured fibula early against his doctors recommendation, and put in an incredible performance (9 catches, 122 yards) to boot. And second, Reality has been critical of TO in the past, so this was a good illustration of why the bloody sock alone was not proof of leadership (unlike Ted, the bloody sock was reality's only point).
I'm also not sure how you can say I ignored your other evidence. I rebutted your evidence. That's different. I'm not sure why this has gotten hostile, I simply disagree with you that Curt is a good leader. It's not that deep. Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep. Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.
Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling. This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant. Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.
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Oh, and Derek, a polygamy joke? You're better than that. Living with so much sports futility has given you a lazy sense of humor. For future reference, I have a huge head (hat size is "8"), am about 35 pounds overweight, and have toenail fungus. That ought to help you be more original.
So what you are saying is that if you lost about 30 pounds, your hat size would go down to two?
Now that THAT is out of the way, we can go back to who lacks the most leadership question. My vote is Kobe, but then, I am an old fart with hearing problems that apparently affect my posting here and comprehension, though that one still needs to be explained to me by Laker Fan.
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Schilling was also said to be a great mentor and teamate in Arizona. Not only with the young pitchers but with Randy Johnson. Johnson said Shilling completely helped him with the mental aspect of the game, something he had problems with in big games previously. Arizona, you know, the team that ended the Skankie mini dynasty? All your points Dabods are from Phillies era.
Also could we discuss what Schilling said about Kobme, not the messanger?
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I'm also not sure how you can say I ignored your other evidence. I rebutted your evidence. That's different. I'm not sure why this has gotten hostile, I simply disagree with you that Curt is a good leader. It's not that deep. Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep. Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.
Oh. come on, dabods. I laugh hysterically at every one of your posts. I mean, you ARE joking in all of them, right? I certainly hope so.
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It's not that deep. Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep. Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.
Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling. This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant. Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.
I stopped taking offense at polygamy jokes when . . . well I can't remember when. I took offense at you not deeming me worthy of your intellectual humor. You see, I expect bigamy jokes from westkoast and WoW because, well, it's really all they've got. You, on the other hand, can do much better, and the next time I deliberately bait you, I'd appreciate your best effort!
And yes, why are we arguing over a guy like Curt Schilling? I'm ready to move on.
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It's not that deep. Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep. Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.
Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling. This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant. Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.
I stopped taking offense at polygamy jokes when . . . well I can't remember when. I took offense at you not deeming me worthy of your intellectual humor. You see, I expect bigamy jokes from westkoast and WoW because, well, it's really all they've got. You, on the other hand, can do much better, and the next time I deliberately bait you, I'd appreciate your best effort!
And yes, why are we arguing over a guy like Curt Schilling? I'm ready to move on.
I only made that joke once. WOW loves them though. Just to let you guys know not all Laker posters are one in the same, in case you forgot.
Surprise Surprise that JoMal picks Kobe a guy who leads his team to win big playoff games almost single handily at times over a guy who has never done that. Who would have guessed ::)
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It's not that deep. Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep. Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.
Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling. This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant. Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.
I stopped taking offense at polygamy jokes when . . . well I can't remember when. I took offense at you not deeming me worthy of your intellectual humor. You see, I expect bigamy jokes from westkoast and WoW because, well, it's really all they've got. You, on the other hand, can do much better, and the next time I deliberately bait you, I'd appreciate your best effort!
And yes, why are we arguing over a guy like Curt Schilling? I'm ready to move on.
I only made that joke once. WOW loves them though. Just to let you guys know not all Laker posters are one in the same, in case you forgot.
Surprise Surprise that JoMal picks Kobe a guy who leads his team to win big playoff games almost single handily at times over a guy who has never done that. Who would have guessed ::)
Perceptions run deep. Kobe just seems like a faux leader - a guy who posters and puts on rants, but never seems to be 'real' while doing it. On that point, I have to agree with Schilling. I don't know much about Schilling's leadership, but at the very least he does not appear to act phony about it. Bryant just seems like a phony.
Sorry if that offends you, but it is just my opinion. Leadership on the court by ballhogging, then telling reporters how he consciously works to get his teammates involved - does a natural leader have to explain when he is "leading"
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Sorry if that offends you, but it is just my opinion. Leadership on the court by ballhogging, then telling reporters how he consciously works to get his teammates involved - does a natural leader have to explain when he is "leading"
Hey, it worked out pretty well for Jordan.
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Sorry if that offends you, but it is just my opinion. Leadership on the court by ballhogging, then telling reporters how he consciously works to get his teammates involved - does a natural leader have to explain when he is "leading"
Hey, it worked out pretty well for Jordan.
Jordan's teammates seemed to respect and accept his leadership role more then Kobe's do. When he talked about it, somehow everyone was on board with it. Again, perceptions.
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Jordan's teammates seemed to respect and accept his leadership role more then Kobe's do. When he talked about it, somehow everyone was on board with it. Again, perceptions.
Agreed that it's all about perceptions. My perception of Jordan was extremely similar to many of the popular perceptions of Kobe today: arrogant, ballhog, me-first, cocky, corporate whore, gets every foul call from the refs, etc. A huge difference is the media today. Jordan's heyday precedes the internet/blog/forum/sports talk radio/14 ESPN channels day where every freaking word that came out of your mouth was examined, discussed and debated ad nauseam. I was listening to Dan Patrick or Collin Cowherd the other morning and someone (can't remember who, Reggie Miller maybe?) was saying they spoke to Jordan about Kobe and Jordan was quick to say he would no doubt have been viewed differently by the public in todays media driven world and was glad he didn't have to go through that in his career to the same extent that Kobe and others do.
So yeah, perception is everything and it's rarely reality. The reality is Jordan was a complete womanizer and compulsive gambler who in all likeliness made Kobe look like a choir boy. He was also known to yell, scream and berate his teammates for not performing ala Kobe. Some people call that leading, others call it being a bad teammate. I'm not sure, but I'd take Jordan and Kobe on my team any day of the week.
I completely agree, perception is everything.
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Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.
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Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.
In my perception, Kobe's teammates respect the hell out of him. He's the reason they are where they are today and all of them will tell you that regardless of what that POS Schilling says he saw on the court. Your perception is obviously very different from mine. A lot of that is due to your utter contempt of Kobe. Another and IMO more significant reason is because you don't watch and read every local article/interview/news nugget regarding the Lakers and I do. I absorb more of what the team says to the media on a daily basis and there is tremendous respect levied at Kobe from his teammates. You as an outside national fan perpetuate the common perception by reading Curt Shillings blog that was pasted on every national news source and quickly plug that in to fit your own perception of Kobe. I prefer to rely on the countless pregame and postgame interviews and sound bytes I absorb from his teammates over the course of an 82 game season and a 16 game (hopefully) playoff run.
I realize you'll likely see this as me being a homer and blinded by my admiration for the Lakers. To that I would submit that there is something to be said for being in the "trenches" if you will concerning the media. In other words being entrenched in the local media vs. only being exposed to the national media. Obviously, you know more of the day to day, ins and outs of the Kings franchise and their player personas being there locally, right?
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Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.
I would love for you to once again enlighten us with where you get this information/idea from. And please for the love of god don't dig up 3 year old 'unanimous' comments made a player who's name is not given. I think this is yet another case of you busting out your crystal ball and trying to see things that others do not see.
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Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.
And please for the love of god don't dig up 3 year old 'unanimous' comments made a player who's name is not given.
:D :D :D