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PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: westkoast on January 08, 2007, 01:07:11 PM
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Amid speculation about a possible buyout of Chris Webber's contract, the veteran forward was absent from practice yesterday. The 76ers said he had the flu.
-- Philadelphia Inquirer
It's difficult to believe Larry Brown won't replace Mo Cheeks as the 76ers coach soon.
-- Chicago Tribune
The Spurs have spoken to the Clippers about Corey Maggette, and to illustrate how far Maggette has slipped in everyone's mind, San Antonio is reluctant to part with 35-year-old Brent Barry in the deal, because Brent's hitting nearly 50 percent of his 3's this year.
-- Newark Star-Ledger
The Spurs, losers of three of their past four games, are looking to add an athletic swingman and Morris Peterson could be the guy.
-- Toronto Sun
Despite speculation that the Jazz will be a player for Corey Maggette, Utah is too close to the luxury-tax threshold to do something dramatic and isn't looking to rent a player.
-- Newsday
The Clippers weren't interested in James Posey when the Heat inquired again about Corey Maggette.
-- Miami Herald
Despite what the Trail Blazers might say, they'd love to move Zach Randolph. Some believe Bulls coach Scott Skiles could get through to him. They're both from Indiana and went to Michigan State. Skiles has tried to help Randolph over the years through Spartans coach Tom Izzo.
-- Chicago Tribune
Though they are running hot now, the Cavs still might look at getting another guard before next month's trading deadline. Two names that have emerged as potential targets, the Nuggets' Earl Boykins and the Mavericks' Anthony Johnson.
-- Akron Beacon Journal
The Nets have actively been talking around the league trying to ascertain the trade value and determine the return for their players -- all their players. Several opposing executives insist the Nets have been as active, if not more, in their calls than any team in the league. But sources on both sides insist there is nothing imminent.
-- New York Post
The back pain that essentially shut down Jason Kidd's motor Saturday night at Cleveland is a muscular problem, Lawrence Frank said yesterday, and the Nets hope that with further treatment the point guard will be ready to play tomorrow night against Toronto.
-- Newark Star-Ledger
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I have a little bit of a source with the 76ers. CWebb's gone. It's only a matter of time until it's official.
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No tears from me, he's really been terrible every time he's stepped on the court. Is he going to retire, Dabods?
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The two regarding the Spurs are somewhat true...the Spurs are looking for a more athletic swingman. They have inquired about Maggette and Mo Peterson. The talks with the Clips included Barry & Udrih. The Spurs were hestiatant on Barry becuase he started the season as the Spurs most consistent outside threat. However over the past 10-12 games Finley has found his stroke and Barry's minutes are dropping. Barry was almost gone last year. The hangup now seems to be Maggette's ego...he doesn't want to be a role player off the bench.
Any further reporting is speculation by reporters.
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I have a little bit of a source with the 76ers. CWebb's gone. It's only a matter of time until it's official.
Really? Gone in what way? Like they are going to buy him out and he won't play anymore? Or they are going to dump him? How does that work...if a team buys out his contract can he go to another team for a vet minimum?
Lurker...yup it is a major hangup. He really, truly believes he is a top player at his position and that he should be a starter on a top team. Sure he would be a def starter on a crappy team but the question comes to mind when you've been a clipper for so long....don't you want to win? ;D He would be nice firepower off the bench for the Spurs but he doesn't want that.
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The double standard of Barry has to hit at .800 fga while Finley can hit at 30% into perpetuity because he is insert <going to break out> at insert <some future date> is perhaps finally coming to a conclusion.
Johny Ludden writes that one or the other will get minutes, no more Poppycock 20-20. It did't work out. Finley and Barry could never get hot at the same time. Neither plays lockdown D, and the Meism of the rest of Fins game is gagging, but Pop seems to forever hang his hat on Finley so we shall see.
One of them appears to be staying (playing more) one going soon.
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Both sides want a buyout. The only question is whether or not they can agree on what's appropriate.
And he definitely does still want to play.
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The double standard of Barry has to hit at .800 fga while Finley can hit at 30% into perpetuity because he is insert <going to break out> at insert <some future date> is perhaps finally coming to a conclusion.
Johny Ludden writes that one or the other will get minutes, no more Poppycock 20-20. It did't work out. Finley and Barry could never get hot at the same time. Neither plays lockdown D, and the Meism of the rest of Fins game is gagging, but Pop seems to forever hang his hat on Finley so we shall see.
One of them appears to be staying (playing more) one going soon.
Sometimes I wonder if you ever watch or truly follow the Spurs. Finley's defense is about 500% better than Barry's...main reason that Barry was expendable last year. And why, now that Finley is shooting better than Barry, Barry is on the block again.
BTW last 10 games:
Finley 43.7% FG, 41.9% 3 Pt, 2.2 assts, 2.8 rebs
Barry 27.3% FG, 30.0% 3 pt, 2.1 assts, 1.9 rebs
If Barry was truly shooting 80% then Pop would find time for him. However after a couple of extremely hot weeks Barry has come back top earth.
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The double standard of Barry has to hit at .800 fga while Finley can hit at 30% into perpetuity because he is insert <going to break out> at insert <some future date> is perhaps finally coming to a conclusion.
Johny Ludden writes that one or the other will get minutes, no more Poppycock 20-20. It did't work out. Finley and Barry could never get hot at the same time. Neither plays lockdown D, and the Meism of the rest of Fins game is gagging, but Pop seems to forever hang his hat on Finley so we shall see.
One of them appears to be staying (playing more) one going soon.
Sometimes I wonder if you ever watch or truly follow the Spurs. Finley's defense is about 500% better than Barry's...main reason that Barry was expendable last year. And why, now that Finley is shooting better than Barry, Barry is on the block again.
BTW last 10 games:
Finley 43.7% FG, 41.9% 3 Pt, 2.2 assts, 2.8 rebs
Barry 27.3% FG, 30.0% 3 pt, 2.1 assts, 1.9 rebs
If Barry was truly shooting 80% then Pop would find time for him. However after a couple of extremely hot weeks Barry has come back top earth.
Magette falls into the same category as Finley does except he is much younger. Only difference is Magette only plays defense when he wants to pump his ego (ie when Kobe/Wade come to play). That right there is very annoying and very apparent to anyone who pays any attention to him. If it is not someone who can boost his ego by having a good game against, he tends not to try all that much.
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Magette falls into the same category as Finley does except he is much younger. Only difference is Magette only plays defense when he wants to pump his ego (ie when Kobe/Wade come to play). That right there is very annoying and very apparent to anyone who pays any attention to him. If it is not someone who can boost his ego by having a good game against, he tends not to try all that much.
I know. And that is why I think it would be a bad deal for the Spurs. They would definately get the better all round player but at what price? IMO Maggette would be in Pop's doghouse within a month of the trade. And that would lead to locker room problems. Floor time on the Spurs goes to those who think defense first and everything else after. Doesn't seem to fit Maggette's style. IMHO MoPete would be a better acquisition.
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The double standard of Barry has to hit at .800 fga while Finley can hit at 30% into perpetuity because he is insert <going to break out> at insert <some future date> is perhaps finally coming to a conclusion.
Johny Ludden writes that one or the other will get minutes, no more Poppycock 20-20. It did't work out. Finley and Barry could never get hot at the same time. Neither plays lockdown D, and the Meism of the rest of Fins game is gagging, but Pop seems to forever hang his hat on Finley so we shall see.
One of them appears to be staying (playing more) one going soon.
Sometimes I wonder if you ever watch or truly follow the Spurs. Finley's defense is about 500% better than Barry's...main reason that Barry was expendable last year. And why, now that Finley is shooting better than Barry, Barry is on the block again.
BTW last 10 games:
Finley 43.7% FG, 41.9% 3 Pt, 2.2 assts, 2.8 rebs
Barry 27.3% FG, 30.0% 3 pt, 2.1 assts, 1.9 rebs
If Barry was truly shooting 80% then Pop would find time for him. However after a couple of extremely hot weeks Barry has come back top earth.
Talk about cherry picking stats.
During those "couple hot weeks for Barry" vs Findawgs "last 10 games".
Get real!
November:
Barry 41-78 .526fg 30-57 .526 treys 22mpg
Finley 38-118 .322fg 10-40 .250 treys in 20 mpg
drrrr says Pop and you??? Lets continue to give Finley equal, no actually bump him up a few more minutes.
December:
Barry 37-69 .536fg 21-44 .477treys 20 mpg
Finley 48-115fg .417 17-42 .405treys 22 mpg
Barry blew him away in November yet Finley got equal minutes! Ditto in December, whereupon PopAdjustment did the same thing. Brilliant.
When GNob went out for 5-6 games, 29% Findawg got the starts while .724 fga Barry still came off the bench and got less minutes.
Your assessment of Findawgs D has me knowing you do not watch Spurs games or we have 180 degree different definitions of D.
Couldn't box out my grandmother, rebounds only those which come his way, never muscles up.
Barry not a good rebounder either but certainly at the least the equal of Finley. How did the Spurs *hide* Barry during the 2005 Championship run? Real Spurs watchers and outsiders alike seeing some of the best team D ever played on the NBA hardwood.
Finley way below average passer and rarely drives to the hoop, something Dallas people complained about for years.
Barry also fails to drive it to the hoop. But he doesnt hork up crap everytime he touches the ball and is a vastly superior passer and team ball player.
Finley is liking the return to the leather ball, maybe that helps explain his January only rise of over 40%. More likely his best years are simply behind him. Maybe Barry was loving the composite ball, altho he put up similiar numbers the second half of 2006 with leather. Probably more likely Pop has discouraged Barry enough to slap him out of his 4 months, oh i mean "couple hot weeks" of shooting.
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When GNob went out for 5-6 games, 29% Findawg got the starts while .724 fga Barry still came off the bench and got less minutes.
If you really followed the Spurs then you would know that the reason Finley started was so that Barry COULD RETAIN HIS ROLE OFF THE BENCH!!!!!!!!!! Pop does this regularly. It just happened recently with Horry getting the start after Elson was injured. By your outstanding NBA logic Fabs should have started. But the eternally wiser Pop likes to try to maintain roles among his bench.
Your assessment of Findawgs D has me knowing you do not watch Spurs games or we have 180 degree different definitions of D.
Couldn't box out my grandmother, rebounds only those which come his way, never muscles up.
Barry not a good rebounder either but certainly at the least the equal of Finley. How did the Spurs *hide* Barry during the 2005 Championship run? Real Spurs watchers and outsiders alike seeing some of the best team D ever played on the NBA hardwood.
Barry wasn't a major defensive factor in the 2005 title run. If you think so then you are definately in the minority. Maybe it just the SoCal Spurs fans that honestly belive that all that matters is shooting percentages and rebounding. Go back and watch all those games you claim to have tivoed. Finley plays much better man-to-man as well as team defense than Barry. Finley also atrtacks the rim and flushes the ball more than a former slam dunk champion. Basically everyone but you who follows the Spurs...including common fans, sports commentators, asst coaches, national columnists, etc...all say that Finley is the better player. But, of course, none of them have the sun-addled thought process that gives you a much better vision of the game.
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Reality,
Has offense ever won the Spurs a title in the last 7 years?
Just to let you know, The Spurs are consistant because defense comes first. There is a reason why Barry, Fabs, and whatever the next offensive player the Spurs grab that you hype up come second to players who are better defenders. I don't even know why that needs to be pointed out.
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Question -
Would the Spurs still be considered a top western conference team if both Finley and Barry were playing elsewhere?
My guess would be yes.
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Question -
Would the Spurs still be considered a top western conference team if both Finley and Barry were playing elsewhere?
My guess would be yes.
Of course not! Then we would be left with just Fabs to carry the load. If not for superstars like Finley & Barry to carry them do you really think Duncan, Parker & Ginobili would win?
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Question -
Would the Spurs still be considered a top western conference team if both Finley and Barry were playing elsewhere?
My guess would be yes.
Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
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Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
If I'm SA, I wouldn't trade Barry's jock strap for Artest. How many times does one have to put their hand on a hot stove before they realize it burns?!?!
1st Time (Chicago) - Team never reached potential with Artest and Brand, gee I wonder why? - ouch that burns!
2nd Time (Indiana) - Solid eastern conference contender, Artest's actions for all intents and purposes destroy an entire season, team trades Artest and is treading water in the Eastern conference - Man, that really burns!
3rd Time (Sac) - Chemistry issues seem to have dragged down a once solid team - Ouch!
Why on God's green earth would any team want to take Artest?!!! I guess I could see if you were struggling it might be worth the risk, I don't think I would, but I could make a case for it. But a seasoned team of good guys like the Spurs. Why would you throw a cancer in the mix?
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Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
3rd Time (Sac) - Chemistry issues seem to have dragged down a once solid team - Ouch!
Kings before Artest and afterwords comparison? Did you watch last years playoffs? Before Artests ankle went out they were giving the Spurs all they could handle. Artest was the backbone along with contract year Bonzi. Are you reffering to this year? See Jomal for explaination of Bibbys self need to be center of attention.
See also Bulls and Dennis Rodman. (Along with CBS ::) )
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Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
If I'm SA, I wouldn't trade Barry's jock strap for Artest. How many times does one have to put their hand on a hot stove before they realize it burns?!?!
1st Time (Chicago) - Team never reached potential with Artest and Brand, gee I wonder why? - ouch that burns!
2nd Time (Indiana) - Solid eastern conference contender, Artest's actions for all intents and purposes destroy an entire season, team trades Artest and is treading water in the Eastern conference - Man, that really burns!
3rd Time (Sac) - Chemistry issues seem to have dragged down a once solid team - Ouch!
Why on God's green earth would any team want to take Artest?!!! I guess I could see if you were struggling it might be worth the risk, I don't think I would, but I could make a case for it. But a seasoned team of good guys like the Spurs. Why would you throw a cancer in the mix?
I don't think it is fair to blame the chemistry issues soley on Ron Artest's shoulders in SAC. There is/was alot going on up there in the last two seasons. On top of that, Mike Bibby is the one who seems to be miffed. Artest should be more of a focus on the offense. With him on the block they are going to have no problem getting easy hoops isntead of jacking up jump shots.
I guess it falls under a Rahim type curse. Rahim is not the reason why all the team he has been on have not done so well. Just like it has not always been Ron Artest's fault for what is going wrong with this SAC squad.
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Question -
Would the Spurs still be considered a top western conference team if both Finley and Barry were playing elsewhere?
My guess would be yes.
Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
Trading away your major outside threats for a headcase? Where will Artest get his offense from? If he is unhappy in Sac then what do you think he will feel when he is the #4 option on the Spurs? Oh, I forgot...Duncan should be playing 18 feet from the rim. Then Artest can be the primary low post player. D'oh!
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Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
3rd Time (Sac) - Chemistry issues seem to have dragged down a once solid team - Ouch!
Kings before Artest and afterwords comparison? Did you watch last years playoffs? Before Artests ankle went out they were giving the Spurs all they could handle. Artest was the backbone along with contract year Bonzi. Are you reffering to this year? See Jomal for explaination of Bibbys self need to be center of attention.
See also Bulls and Dennis Rodman. (Along with CBS ::) )
Yes, I watched the playoffs last year. As I recall Bonzi was killing the Spurs on the block. I think Artest played pretty well too, but remember ... he was still in his honeymoon period after having to sit at home on his arse for half a season waiting for the phone to ring.
Let's see, Bonzi leaves, Artest is still there, the Kings now stinking it up. Hmmmm ... what changed? Bibby may or may not be acting like a baby this year, but he seemed fine in previous seasons with every other teammate.
Are you actually trying to tell me you don't see a pattern here with Artest?
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Yes, I watched the playoffs last year. As I recall Bonzi was killing the Spurs on the block. I think Artest played pretty well too, but remember ... he was still in his honeymoon period after having to sit at home on his arse for half a season waiting for the phone to ring.
Let's see, Bonzi leaves, Artest is still there, the Kings now stinking it up. Hmmmm ... what changed? Bibby may or may not be acting like a baby this year, but he seemed fine in previous seasons with every other teammate.
Are you actually trying to tell me you don't see a pattern here with Artest? [/quote]
Excellent point about the honeymoon period.
Well, Rodman was also disruptive until MJ and Phil got ahold of him. Remember when he tried his antics with the Bulls? Missed a bunch of practices and slacked a few games. Word was MJ was totally in his face and Bulls were prepared to move on without him. So yes you have a point.
But, Bulls did get the best out of him.
I think Phil J would make Artest rock in L.A.
Back to SA, would Artest "honeymoon" with the Spurs for the rest of this season? I will gamble and say yes.
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Oh, I forgot...Duncan should be playing 18 feet from the rim. Then Artest can be the primary low post player. D'oh!
Correction!!! He should be FACING the basket from 18 feet setting up the bank shot!
LOL!!!!
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I think Phil J would make Artest rock in L.A.
No way!!! Kobe would het hammered in practice and be out for the season. That would solve the "post presence" problem in L.A. I admit I would drool if it was a possibility.
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I don't think it is fair to blame the chemistry issues soley on Ron Artest's shoulders in SAC. There is/was alot going on up there in the last two seasons. On top of that, Mike Bibby is the one who seems to be miffed. Artest should be more of a focus on the offense. With him on the block they are going to have no problem getting easy hoops isntead of jacking up jump shots.
I guess it falls under a Rahim type curse. Rahim is not the reason why all the team he has been on have not done so well. Just like it has not always been Ron Artest's fault for what is going wrong with this SAC squad.
I think it's totally fair to blame Artest given his track record. He's single handidly sabotaged two teams and now it appears he's working on his third. That said, I don't think team chemistry issues are ever 100% due to one thing, but rather a combination of factors. However, one can't deny that Artest has been direcetly involved in chemistry issues everywhere he goes. There is now an undeniable pattern.
I don't think it's fair to compare Artest to Shareef Abdur Rahim. For starters Shareef doesn't have a list of detrimental actions as long as the Nile River like Artest does. As far as I can see, Shareef is a good guy, he maybe hasen't lived up to his on court potential, but he's not a bad apple. The same can't be said for Artest. He is the definition of a Bad Apple. It's not like Artest is a Rod Strickland, or Sam Cassell type cancer. No, this guy is the team cancer of all team cancers. He has established himself as the cancer by which all other cancers will now be measured.
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I admit I would drool if it was a possibility.
It was a possibilty just last year and I'm thankful every day it never happened.
Hindsight is 20/20, but this current Laker team appears to have developed a wonderful comeradere and chemistry and I'd hate to see that ruined by a d!@#-head like Ron Ron.
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When GNob went out for 5-6 games, 29% Findawg got the starts while .724 fga Barry still came off the bench and got less minutes.
If you really followed the Spurs then you would know that the reason Finley started was so that Barry COULD RETAIN HIS ROLE OFF THE BENCH!!!!!!!!!! Pop does this regularly. It just happened recently with Horry getting the start after Elson was injured. By your outstanding NBA logic Fabs should have started. But the eternally wiser Pop likes to try to maintain roles among his bench.
Your assessment of Findawgs D has me knowing you do not watch Spurs games or we have 180 degree different definitions of D.
Couldn't box out my grandmother, rebounds only those which come his way, never muscles up.
Barry not a good rebounder either but certainly at the least the equal of Finley. How did the Spurs *hide* Barry during the 2005 Championship run? Real Spurs watchers and outsiders alike seeing some of the best team D ever played on the NBA hardwood.
Barry wasn't a major defensive factor in the 2005 title run. If you think so then you are definately in the minority. Maybe it just the SoCal Spurs fans that honestly belive that all that matters is shooting percentages and rebounding. Go back and watch all those games you claim to have tivoed. Finley plays much better man-to-man as well as team defense than Barry. Finley also atrtacks the rim and flushes the ball more than a former slam dunk champion. Basically everyone but you who follows the Spurs...including common fans, sports commentators, asst coaches, national columnists, etc...all say that Finley is the better player. But, of course, none of them have the sun-addled thought process that gives you a much better vision of the game.
If you really followed the Spurs then you would know that the reason Finley started was so that Barry COULD RETAIN HIS ROLE OFF THE BENCH!!!!!!!!!! Pop does this regularly. It just happened recently with Horry getting the start after Elson was injured. By your outstanding NBA logic Fabs should have started. But the eternally wiser Pop likes to try to maintain roles among his bench.
In the 2005 Championship season, Barry started several times at the point. Worked out great, best one i saw was at Clippers later in the season as the Spurs secured homecourt. Explain why Finley got equal minutes in Nov and Dec.
Barry wasn't a major defensive factor in the 2005 title run.
Nor did i ever quote or infer he was a "major" factor. He certainly was a factor, playing 25 min per game including vs Detroit and including most of the 4th qtr of game 7. You tell me how he was hidden as you claim he is such a crappy defender.
Basically everyone but you who follows the Spurs...including common fans, sports commentators, asst coaches, national columnists, etc...all say that Finley is the better player.
I'm just getting started but here is two:
"Bench Finley a la Steve Smith in '03. I've been calling for that recently and it's the right move. Finley is done. He gave all he could in last year's playoffs but his tank is empty." LJ WOAI in San Antone.
"I agree that Finley is playing too much while not producing." Dec 13th. Kori Ellis who also writes for WOAI and is wife of LJ.
They run a site and this is one of the hundreds of comments on Findawg, a mild one at that:
One of hundreds of non media quotes: "The thing I just don't understand is "why" he seems to think he "has" to let Finley play through all of this. For chrissakes when Barry went through this he was BURIED never to be seen for a month, and Devin Brown was the replacement. Now, the Spurs can actually just plug someone in who can fill the void (Barry) yet, it just doesn't matter.
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Reality...let's make this simpler.
Finley was not a member of the Spurs in 2005. So comparing what Barry did that year is foolishness. Barry & Devin Brown were the backup swing spots. And the Spurs were so desparate for another SF they signed Big Dog Robinson...who according to commentators looked impressive on defense. So, yes, the Spurs were a strong enough defensive team to cover the weakness of Barry who got the minutes out of default.
Finley was signed during the offseason. So Pop and the rest of the Spurs front office (regularly deemed one of the best in the NBA) obviously felt that Barry was not the solution as a backup at the swing spots.
Before the trade deadline last year the Spurs had a deal in place to ship out Barry but the 3rd team needed to make salaries work didn't return calls in time. Finley's name has never come up in trade discussions...because the Spurs don't want to give him up!
BUT MOST OF ALL: Barry does NOT play solid enough man or team defense to stay on the floor. He could shoot 100% from the floor and still not get playing time due to his DEFENSIVE shortcomings. In short Finley is the better player in terms of playing BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. What part don't you understand?
It is a real shame that all those idiots working for the Spurs' front office can't judge talent as well as you do. The Spurs never would have lost a game and be on their way to a 20-something repeat.
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Question -
Would the Spurs still be considered a top western conference team if both Finley and Barry were playing elsewhere?
My guess would be yes.
Barry, Scola rights and Finley for Artest works for me.
Unless one of those players balloons up to 6'10" and 280 lbs, and becomes a rebounding and shot blocking freak, forget it.
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Jomal
Unless one of those players balloons up to 6'10" and 280 lbs, and becomes a rebounding and shot blocking freak, forget it.
All right you're gonna play hardball. Don't blame you, seeing Artests influence in the playoffs. Okay you got it.
You get Matt Bonner.
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I think it's totally fair to blame Artest given his track record. He's single handidly sabotaged two teams and now it appears he's working on his third. That said, I don't think team chemistry issues are ever 100% due to one thing, but rather a combination of factors. However, one can't deny that Artest has been direcetly involved in chemistry issues everywhere he goes. There is now an undeniable pattern.
I don't think it's fair to compare Artest to Shareef Abdur Rahim. For starters Shareef doesn't have a list of detrimental actions as long as the Nile River like Artest does. As far as I can see, Shareef is a good guy, he maybe hasen't lived up to his on court potential, but he's not a bad apple. The same can't be said for Artest. He is the definition of a Bad Apple. It's not like Artest is a Rod Strickland, or Sam Cassell type cancer. No, this guy is the team cancer of all team cancers. He has established himself as the cancer by which all other cancers will now be measured.
Artest is not the problem the Kings are having this season.
He also has hardly been any kind of cancer on the Kings. Just the opposite, actually. Young players like Price, Garcia, and Martin have been greatly helped by Artest's tutoring since pre-season. Early in the year, Artest wanted the ball and was hogging it to an extent, which annoyed Bibby and caused something of a rift between them. Lately, Artest has not been demanding the ball, has been passing it more, (especially with Martin, who he thinks should take more shots for the team). Bibby has noticed and has been passing it into Artest in the lane, and when Artest gets a hot shooting hand, he has been telling Ron to not pass up open shots, so that rift seems to at least for now been resolved.
Biggest problem Ron is having up to now has been his health issues - first his back, which still bothers him, and lately his sore knees, which apparently is limiting him and probably prompted him to be more a team player on offense.
All the trade talk involving Artest originated around Christmas, when Ron took himself out of a game 55 minutes before tipoff, due to those sore knees, which was one of those warning signs everyone has mentioned about Artest, and got Petrie on the phone with the Clippers about a deal for Maggette. Since then, rumors about the Kings trading Artest has kept the wires hot, and just about every team looking for a deal has come calling to Petrie. He has been listening, but believe me, unless the deal involves a top-of-the-line front court player, it ain't going to happen. Since Petrie thought better about equating Maggette with Artest, talent-wise, he nixed that deal almost immediately, after his initial contact with Baylor.
Are there chemistry problems on the Kings? Unfortunately, yes. But the biggest problem is between Rahim and Kenny Thomas at the power forward position. If Musselman can play them together, it actually is not so bad, but Thomas sees himself as a starter, while SAR would like to start, but does not mouth off about it like Thomas does, being of a milder temperment. His annoyance with Thomas claiming his skills warrant the starting nod, however DOES rankle Sharif a bit. This is the area where the Kings find themselves in a hopeless situation. Opposing teams are killing the Kings by exploiting the weak interior defense.
Artest can't defend seven foot power forwards and neither can Thomas, Rahim, nor Miller, for that matter.
And if you question why teams would add a "cancer" to their mix by trading for Artest, you might ask all those teams out there that HAVE been burning up the phone lines to Petrie after he made that call to Baylor, all asking for Ron Artest. Apparently a little controversy - okay, A LOT of controversy, is no deterent to getting a player with the abilities of a Ron Artest.
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Jomal Unless one of those players balloons up to 6'10" and 280 lbs, and becomes a rebounding and shot blocking freak, forget it.
All right you're gonna play hardball. Don't blame you, seeing Artests influence in the playoffs. Okay you got it.
You get Matt Bonner.
Does he come with balloons, because if he doesn't, you can keep him too.
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I admit I would drool if it was a possibility.
It was a possibilty just last year and I'm thankful every day it never happened.
Hindsight is 20/20, but this current Laker team appears to have developed a wonderful comeradere and chemistry and I'd hate to see that ruined by a d!@#-head like Ron Ron.
On this point, you are very correct. I could not see Ron Artest in a Laker uniform either, and for those reasons.
Though Ron has noticably tried to fit in with the Kings, he would be under such a microscope in Los Angeles, it would ultimately blow up, and probably over a little thing.
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I don't think it is fair to blame the chemistry issues soley on Ron Artest's shoulders in SAC. There is/was alot going on up there in the last two seasons. On top of that, Mike Bibby is the one who seems to be miffed. Artest should be more of a focus on the offense. With him on the block they are going to have no problem getting easy hoops isntead of jacking up jump shots.
I guess it falls under a Rahim type curse. Rahim is not the reason why all the team he has been on have not done so well. Just like it has not always been Ron Artest's fault for what is going wrong with this SAC squad.
I think it's totally fair to blame Artest given his track record. He's single handidly sabotaged two teams and now it appears he's working on his third. That said, I don't think team chemistry issues are ever 100% due to one thing, but rather a combination of factors. However, one can't deny that Artest has been direcetly involved in chemistry issues everywhere he goes. There is now an undeniable pattern.
I don't think it's fair to compare Artest to Shareef Abdur Rahim. For starters Shareef doesn't have a list of detrimental actions as long as the Nile River like Artest does. As far as I can see, Shareef is a good guy, he maybe hasen't lived up to his on court potential, but he's not a bad apple. The same can't be said for Artest. He is the definition of a Bad Apple. It's not like Artest is a Rod Strickland, or Sam Cassell type cancer. No, this guy is the team cancer of all team cancers. He has established himself as the cancer by which all other cancers will now be measured.
I've always believed that people are allowed to try to change for the better. It is hard to let people do that if you keep holding past mistakes against them no matter what. So far Ron Artest has not done anything wrong in SAC. In fact he has done quite the opposite according to papers and our resident Kings fan. If he does something wrong then I will take pictures of myself eating a boot or a crow with a MSC is the man shirt! I will give him the benefit of the doubt right now. People can change. Although I understand why you are hesistant to believe he has. I didn't think Artest was a major problem in Chi, I thought they had a stupid front office who was dumping off quality players. Brand left for less then peanuts.
I am not saying Rahim is a bad apple in the same vein as Artest. What I am saying is that wherever Rahim goes the team has problems that are not really his fault per say. Just like SAC is having problems right now that are not really Artest's fault. Different system was not his fault, Bibby being a baby is not really his fault, and the sub-par play of the team overall is not his soley his fault.
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The man asked for rebound and shot-blocking -- two things my 3 year old cousin can do better than Matt Bonner. :D
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Re: Artest.
JoMal – You obviously have more insight to the day in day out goings on at Kings camp. I don't doubt that for one second. You're probably right, but there is a part of me that can't accept that it is purely coincidental that Artest is there and the team is now all of the sudden having major chemistry issues. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong, but if I were a betting man I would bet that there is at least some kind of "incident" before his tenure in SAC is over.
Like westkoast says everyone deserves a second chance and he's been good so far. I hope that he has changed, it’s not about being right or wrong, but I doubt it. I’ll use my examples from before, I could see guys like Cassell or Rod Strickland changing, but I honestly believe that Artest has serious mental problems; maybe he's bipolar or manic depressive.
The past is the past, but it's tough for me to believe that this leopard will change his spots. Lest we forget his past behaviors, here's a littler refresher.
Ron Artest Timeline (from espn.com)
1999-00 season
Summer 1999: Before his rookie season, Artest applied for a part-time job at a Circuit City outlet in the Chicago area. But the Bulls stepped in before he could begin work ... and benefit from the employee discount.
Said Artest: "I thought it would be fun. And I had a friend who worked there."
October 4, 1999: Fined $5,000 and sent home from the league's rookie orientation for missing a meeting. Bulls GM Jerry Krause said Artest overslept, while also having a friend in his room when visitors weren't allowed.
2000-01 season
February 21, 2001: Suspended for one game and fined $7,500 for fighting with Glenn Robinson during Bulls-Bucks game.
June 13, 2001: Broke two of Michael Jordan's ribs during a pickup game. "I'm not sure what happened," Artest said in the Chicago Daily Herald. "I was just guarding him. I was just trying to get position because he was posting me up. I don't even recall him stopping for a brief second. ... I read it in the paper and was like, 'Man, Mike's ribs got broke. How'd his ribs get broke?'"
2001-02 season
February 19, 2002: Traded with Ron Mercer, Brad Miller and Kevin Ollie to Pacers for Jalen Rose, Travis Best, Norm Richardson and second-round pick.
May 25, 2002: Girlfriend Jennifer Palma, mother of one of Artest's sons, accused him of grabbing her around the neck and by the arm during an argument. No charges were filed, but she was given a protective order, which Artest allegedly violated several days later by calling her. Harassment and criminal contempt charges were later dropped.
2002-03 season
Sept. 15, 2002: Artest, now reunited with Kimsha Hatfield, his girlfriend of eight years and mother of his two oldest children, called the police claiming that she hit and scratched him. (The two are now married.)
December 19, 2002: Fined $10,000 for shoving the Mavericks' Raja Bell and failing to leave the court in a timely manner following his ejection, which occurred after he was given his second technical foul.
Jan 4, 2003: Suspended three games and fined $35,000 for smashing video equipment after a loss to the Knicks at Madison Square Garden.
January 30, 2003: Suspended four games (costing him $84,000) after confrontation with Heat coach Pat Riley on the sidelines during the game, then flipping his middle finger at the fans in Miami.
The incident boiled over in the fourth quarter when Artest scored and was fouled, and proceeded to flex his right arm while walking toward the Miami bench. Heat assistant coach Keith Askins exchanged words with Artest, who brushed against Riley. Riley, who was already hot because of an Artest flagrant foul on Caron Butler, began shouting with Artest and shoved him away.
Feb. 26, 2003: Suspended one game by Pacers for smashing a framed picture of himself in Conseco Fieldhouse.
March 9, 2003: Suspended one game for flagrant foul (sixth of the season, which led to automatic suspension) on Trail Blazers' Bonzi Wells.
March 13, 2003: Suspended one game for flagrant foul (seventh of the season, which led to automatic suspension) on 76ers' Eric Snow.
March 20, 2003: Suspended two games for flagrant foul on the Celtics' Paul Pierce five seconds into the game. Eighth flagrant foul called for automatic two game suspension.
April 3, 2003: Fined $20,000 for making an obscene gesture to the crowd in Cleveland.
2003-04 season
Feb. 16, 2004: Made his first All-Star appearance in style, by changing -- and mismatching -- sneakers throughout the game, in the hopes of landing a shoe contract.
Said Artest's agent, Mark Bartelstein: "We've been in negotiations with several different companies for a few months now. We didn't feel it was right to just wear one brand."
March 19, 2004: Suspended one game for elbowing the Trail Blazers' Derek Anderson during game.
May 25, 2004: Fined $10,000 for making an obscene gesture during Eastern Conference Finals against the Pistons.
June 1, 2004: Took a shot at Richard Hamilton's masked face and was called for a flagrant foul late in the fourth quarter of Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals, which appeared to ignite the Pistons, who would eliminate the Pacers shortly thereafter.
Said Artest of the call: "(Hamilton's) so skinny that they [the referees] didn't see it," Artest said. "I just put up my hands on him."
2004-05 season
Nov. 9-10, 2004: Benched for two games after he asked for time off to promote the release of his upcoming rap album.
"When I decided I wanted to leave the game or take a month off, I'm a grown man," Artest told ESPN. "It doesn't make me crazy to want to do something that I want to do. ... You can be anything you want to be.
"I want to be a musician. I want to own my own label and I want to be MVP and win the championship of the NBA. I feel I can do anything I want to do. I have two goals this year. I want to go platinum or have my girls, Allure, go platinum, and win the NBA championship."
Nov. 19, 2004: Charged into the stands at the Palace of Auburn Hills to attack a fan who had thrown a cup at him. Two days later, he was suspended for the remainder of the season. Artest pleaded no contest to assault and battery charges and was sentenced to a year of probation, community service, anger management counseling and a $250 fine. He missed 73 regular-season games and 13 playoff games in total, while also losing $4,995,000 in salary.
2005-06 season
October 11, 2005: Said Artest on new season: "I'm going to continue playing hard and out of control, like a wild animal that needs to be caged in."
October 2005: Appearing on the cover of the December issue of Penthouse, Artest said in the interview that he wanted to box Ben Wallace on pay-per-view.
December 10, 2005: In a one-on-one interview with the Indianapolis Star, Artest suggests the Pacers trade him. "If the trade rumors, if there is any truth -- maybe it won't be a bad thing. They probably could win more games without me. ... If I go to the West Coast, I would come back to New York after my contract is up. ... I would go to Cleveland. I wouldn't mind coming off the bench behind LeBron James. There's a lot of players I wouldn't mind coming off the bench behind."
In the interview, Artest also criticized coach Rick Carlisle, who would bench Artest for two games. "I like Coach [Carlisle] as a person, but I don't like playing for Coach. I like my team, though. ... Don't get it twisted. He's a very good coach. He knows what he's doing. I personally don't like playing for him."
December 12, 2005: Placed on inactive list.
December 15, 2005: Fined $10,000 for making public statements that he wanted to be traded. Said NBA senior vice president and general counsel Rick Buchanan: "Public trade demands by players was a subject discussed at length during collective bargaining negotiations this summer. The damage caused by these kind of statements was commonly understood, as was the NBA's intention to hold players accountable for such statements going forward."
December 17, 2005: Has a change of heart. Said Artest in the Indianapolis Star: "I should have been a man and spoken with coach [Rick Carlisle] about my differences with him. Yes, I would like to return to the team."
January 1, 2006: Artest, whose self-titled CD hits stores this summer, told the New York Post that his New Year's resolution is to: "Teach math classes in elementary schools throughout the country. And, of course, I want to sell 10 million records."
January 24, 2006: Traded to Kings for Stojakovic, but trade falls through because Artest does not want to play in Sacramento.
"We waited for about an hour and half," Pacers prez Donnie Walsh told ESPN.com. "By then, I knew there was trouble. Geoff got on the phone at about 5:30 p.m. and told me that the deal was off. That Ronnie's agent [Mark Stevens] had called and told him Ronnie didn't want to play there and then called the owners. It scared them both off.
"I told Geoff that I didn't think that Ronnie meant what his agent was saying and asked him if they'd wait until the morning for us to get this sorted out. ... I wasn't happy."
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msc, that is an amazing litany of bad behavior, to say the least.
Above all else, I am <hoping> that Ron behaves himself while in Sacramento. If nothing else, I have to think that someone must have shown Artest your list there, because he is striving NOT to mess up. As your list attest to, he was prone to getting flagrant fouls in the past, but those have dried up, at least for now. He also would bait opponents, like he did with the Heat and Pat Riley. So far, none of that has been going on in Sacramento, but the perverbial shoe may fall at any time.
You mention he may be bi-polar or suffer from some other mental illness. This may very well be true, and before he was traded to Sacramento, those sentiments were voiced by me as well. He certainly is up and down, but, again, to his credit, he is either bottling up the urge to explode, or he is learning to manage the anger or whatever more like a normal person.
Could he be medicated? Makes you wonder.
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JoMal, I agree with you. His flagrants have dissapeared and for all acounts he's been a good boy since arriving in SAC. I think it could be one of two things, or a combination of both.
1) Being suspended pending a trade by Indy and sitting around for several months he may have finally realized that he can't continue to behave so irrationally. The realization that this may be his last chance to secure another big contract would be enough to motivate just about anyone.
2) Maybe he sought professional help and is receiving counseling and/or medication.
For your sake I hope it's a combination of 1 and 2 b/c that might be enough to keep him behaving in a healthy manner. However, if it's just medication and he decides to go off of it ... I would think the old Ron Ron might come back.
Time will tell, again, I hope both you and westkoast are right in that he has changed.
All that being said, the one thing I do know is that Reality's trade proposal would be a lose-lose for both teams.
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JoMal, I agree with you. His flagrants have dissapeared and for all acounts he's been a good boy since arriving in SAC. I think it could be one of two things, or a combination of both.
1) Being suspended pending a trade by Indy and sitting around for several months he may have finally realized that he can't continue to behave so irrationally. The realization that this may be his last chance to secure another big contract would be enough to motivate just about anyone.
2) Maybe he sought professional help and is receiving counseling and/or medication.
For your sake I hope it's a combination of 1 and 2 b/c that might be enough to keep him behaving in a healthy manner. However, if it's just medication and he decides to go off of it ... I would think the old Ron Ron might come back.
Time will tell, again, I hope both you and westkoast are right in that he has changed.
All that being said, the one thing I do know is that Reality's trade proposal would be a lose-lose for both teams.
I honestly believe #1 is what happend. Knowing where Ron Artest grew up I would think that the chance to make millions of dollars for a decade or so would be the b-slap across the face he needed. The only people who have made serious money from where Ron is from are a few rappers I can count on my hand. Quite frankly, this probably is his last chance to play ball in the NBA for large sums of money. He seems to understand that.
I totally understand where you are coming from though. After going through that list I think it would be hard for anyone to read that and still not have a lingering thought that it is only a matter of games before he blows up. Who knows though. I guess that is the problem, no one knows, not even Ron Ron at times.
Reality's trades are always silly. If it was up to him he would build a team with even less defense then the Pheonix Suns.
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FYI guys, Ron does have mental problems and they do require medication. It was in an ESPN article durring his suspension after the Pistons/Pacers brawl.
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told ya it was just a matter of days:
Webber gone (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/16424148.htm)
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told ya it was just a matter of days:
Webber gone (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/16424148.htm)
Webber is listed on the team's salary cap at $20,718,750 this season and is due $22,312,500 next season.
What happened to the barf smiley?
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told ya it was just a matter of days:
Webber gone (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/16424148.htm)
I'm confused. Will this help or hurt Phillys pursual of losing games to obtain more lottery balls?
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I am amazed that Webber agreed to a buyout. It tells you two things:
1- Even Webber feels he is overpaid for what he now can contribute.
2- Webber feels he still can play for someone.
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2- Webber feels he still can play for someone.
But is the feeling mutual...does anyone feel that Webber can play for them. And actually contribute.
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2- Webber feels he still can play for someone.
But is the feeling mutual...does anyone feel that Webber can play for them. And actually contribute.
You could do alot worse than Webber as a backup PF. I'm trying to think of teams that could use him as a starting PF.
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IMO it will hurt Philly's chances of making the playoffs more if Webber remained with the team. Webber is either done or he was deliberately dogging it with the Sixers. You'd think he'd still be a contributing player, but he just isn't competing effectively. I can't think of a good team that would think they'd be better of with Webber on their team!
Frankly, I'm not too worried about them making the playoffs this year. The only decent first round pick they have is their own, and that's more important for the future than an early playoff out this season.
Philly is clearing up a lot of cap space very quickly, which makes them a potential player in the free agent market. They are now 2 players under the roster limit with CWebb gone.
With Brown back with the Sixers, you just know that they have all types of different ideas and scenarios to try and figure out how to get the franchise back on track. Brown is crazy and very volatile- changing his mind on players very quickly. It's not clear if the team of Cheeks, King and Brown will be effective, or how quickly they'll be able to bring results, but it is clear that they've cleaned the deck and are stageing for a rebuilding process.
The problem now is they have to wait to see which pick they get to decide who they should really pursue in free agency.
When your basketball team sucks, change is good, but is it really a change? The only thing different is that Iverson is gone.
IMO, the Sixers failed to build a team that AI could get to the championship. Getting rid of him, was saying that they didn't think they could win with him, or at least not in a time frame that suited AI. No matter how they spin it, they failed to finish what they started when they got to the finals the first time. Everyone involved with the Sixers now was there with AI back then. Once that original team started getting old, they couldn't find other players who could step in and contribute at the same level.
Not only didn't the Sixers get back, but they regressed, even as AI was becoming a better player. So far that's King's legacy- every success he had was with AI here, and everything since has been a decision made by Billy and/or Larry. Maybe they will do better without having to try to find a way to deal with a unique talent like AI.
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IMO it will hurt Philly's chances of making the playoffs more if Webber remained with the team. Webber is either done or he was deliberately dogging it with the Sixers. You'd think he'd still be a contributing player, but he just isn't competing effectively. I can't think of a good team that would think they'd be better of with Webber on their team!
This is a valid point. Webber certainly gets more motivated when on a good team, and I can see him not trying as hard for the Sixers, especially after Iverson was traded. He will wind up on a contender somewhere, believe me, on a team with a good nucleus already.
At the heart of Chris is a very real desire to win a championship, so hello Miami Heat/Lakers/Spurs/ or Mavs. If he wants to play the patient guy, and he might, he should go talk to Cleveland, or maybe the Bulls.
He might even call up Petrie, but that would be a stretch for the Kings at this time.
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...Heat/Lakers/Spurs/ or Mavs....
Anybody remember that elementary school logic problem? One of these DOESN'T belong.....
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16566982/
Just in case you all missed it, Mike "I can really be stupid sometimes" Ventre wrote this entirely ridiculous article linked above suggesting the only man more cancerous than Ron Artest (I 1,000,000,000 agree with msc on that one), Chris Webber, should attempt to rehabilitate his rep and legacy with the Lakers. 2 points on this moronic suggestion.
1) How stupid is Ventre to think this leopard can change his spots? He's worse than Artest when it comes to being the most committed whinedog in the NBA, and you put him and Kobe on the same team you might as well charge one of them for murder now and save time.
2) What "legacy" does he have to salvage? The legacy of being the biggest woman crybaby punk sissy girl to ever step on the court? The legacy of being a world class cancer? The legacy of being a choke artist supreme? the legacy of taking a lot of raw talent and wasting it like it was so much water down a drain? What lagacy could he possibly be talking about? If Ventre made one valid point it was that Webber's poison had to be pretty bad for Philly to say "Here's your money, now please just go away".
I have said it before and I will say it again, when it comes to sports, life will be alright with me if Iverson, Terrel Owens, Barry Bonds, and Crybaby Webber NEVER EVER GET A RING, even better if they get to the championship and watch it slip away before their very eyes, so far, the only one left to have that insult heaped on him is Webber.
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...even better if they get to the championship and watch it slip away before their very eyes, so far, the only one left to have that insult heaped on him is Webber.
Only if you don't count the NCAA title.....you know, the one where not only did he get to watch it slip away. He contributed the biggest bonehead move in NCAA tournament history to give it away.
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Touche' Lurker, I forgot about that