Author Topic: Would you rebuild New Orleans  (Read 7249 times)

Offline JoMal

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2005, 03:16:32 PM »
Some other thoughts about New Orleans and any future threats from hurricanes or other natural or manmade forces of destruction.

As I stated before, this city has survived since 1690 and during that time there have been other major storms that threatened to destroy it, but each time the city rebuilt itself. Because of its location and climate, yellow fever nearly wiped out its population several times. The Civil War also threatened its existence; before that, the British planned a major invasion of the city in 1814, but Andrew Jackson instead engaged the English outside the city and defeated them. Devastating fires have raged through the city, as fire has raged through other cities at various times, but even those catastrophes never detered the people from coming back.

After the devastation to Lower Manhattan following 9/11, several articles were written that the area would never again be a bustling hub of offices and restaurants because no one would want to return. Four years later, just the opposite has happened, and I do not think any of us who watched the impact of those planes would have argued that rebuilding the area was not likely to happen.

The point is, Rick, the thought of not rebuilding New Orleans, right there in a flood plane and below the level of the Mississippi, is not realistic because in three hundred years, nothing like Katrina has happened before, though other things have. If it needs to be secured with stronger levees and better water pumps, so be it. Because this is what humanity does when faced with nature's wrath and the world is a better place for the effort.

It is just that, once in a while, Nature is going to win. But in three hundred years time, we can take one major setback in stride and go on.    
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Skandery

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2005, 03:49:34 PM »
Rick,

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Neither Venice nor Amstrdam get hit by category 4 or 5 hurricanes, or anything even close.

Yeah you're right, Amsterdam never has been hit with a category 4 or 5 hurricane.  You see hurricanes don't really form in the cold weather climate of the North Sea, but Amsterdam (the largest city in the Netherlands) with more people living in it than New Orleans is perpetually below Sea Level.  That's right Rick, UNDER SEA LEVEL, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.  It is located in the section of the country called the "Randstad" which if you know anything about history, the Dutch broke their own dykes and levees and flooded the entire area when faced with the eminent British invasion in the 16th century.  If they can do it and build a thriving economy (Netherlands is currently ranked in the top 15 in gross GDP) and a world class culture, why can't we do it.  We can and we will!

 
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A better comparison to NO is Bangladesh. Most cities on a river delta aren't right in the delta, but adjacent to it. The geography around NO and Bangladesh, doesn't support this so you have cities that are prone to flooding. Bangladesh is too poor to do anything about it, but in the US, we can if it makes sense.

Comparing Bangladesh to New Orleans is comparing Donald Trump to that three year old with the protruding stomach in Ethiopia.  

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If you just want to put it back the way it was, leave me and my money out of it! And all of you should feel the same way. Or do you just like throwing good money after bad?

Here is something we can agree on.  I want New Orleans to be rebuilt, but I want it to be done RIGHT.  No cutting corners, no spit and bailing wire, no diverted funds, no 'NO BID' contracts to the good ole' boys, Dubya.  Plan carefully and efficiently, you have genuine research and expert input (that team from the Netherlands you told to F*** off) into how to do it RIGHT, and you build it to stand and you build it to last, NO taking the cheap route when it comes to our own people for a change.  These are the kind of things I pay taxes for, not for you and Tom Delay to go on a fishing trip in Martha's Vineyard.  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:
« Last Edit: September 20, 2005, 03:50:29 PM by Skandery »
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

rickortreat

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2005, 11:17:31 PM »
Don't presume to tell me about Amsterdam, I've been there, pal!  I know all about the place, very friendly people, speak english, brew great beer, cut diamonds, have a great Ven Gogh museam and a floating hotel I stayed at.  Good cheese too.  Nice liberal people, too bad the weather sucks.

Yes it is under sea level and they filled in a giant inlet to provide them with more land for growing.   But being under sea level isn't the problem, as long as you don't have storm surges threatening to come over the top of the dykes.

NO is a bit different, sandwiched in between a lake and the Missisippi.  Forget about dykes, the whole city needs to be raised up, something that couldn't have been done while it was inhabited.  Just fill up the bowl with dirt and stone and keep pilling it up until it's 20 feet above sea level.  Establish building codes to handle the high winds and then you've got a place that can last.  And you could even bury people and not worry about the water digging them up.
 :nod:

You don't need a dutchman to tell you that!

The comparison with Bangladesh is apt, as both cities are in the middle of river deltas and both are subject to severe storms and heavy rains.  And there are a hell of a lot more people living in Dacca than in NO!  

Offline Reality

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2005, 06:50:10 AM »
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I guess I am a little dense this morning, but is there a point you are trying to make here?

Sounds to me that you are accusing the American people of being overgenerous to a fault and you are complaining about it, so you feel the people of New Orleans do not deserve the same benefits. Apparently, you HAVE drawn a line in the sand and you do not want the American people to cross over it again, am I right?
I do not want unaccountability for the millions, billions collected in celeberty and other telethons.  Along with the Red Double Cross.  

The Jack Wrinkleson and other A list telethone took in what, 500 million?  Was it ever accounted for?

Ditto the Red Double Cross.  Rita Crosby of CNN was on last night with a recent former director of regional FEMA.  In spite of all the media, the worst hit part of New Orleans has not recieved "one red cent".  Not one helecopter has come by, not one FEMA rep, not one Red Double Cross person or supply.  The spokesman for the neighbor hood (I dont have his exact title and name) had recieved a deal from the Core of Engineers or somesuch gov't entity that they would bring in 500 men and supplies and help.  Its being held up going on two weeks now by bereauocratic bullstink.  Both Crosby and this director said it was "disgusting the continued lack of response from both FEMA and the Red Cross"

Yes that is a line I want drawn.  Accountability for the massive tax dollars and charity contributions made.  Now see below on previous tax waste and scammery.

Offline Reality

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2005, 06:57:19 AM »
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That's the whole point Randy.  When people encounter a loss like this, they want to rebuild.  Everyone with fond memories of the area wants to see it resurected.  But the point is, its YOUR money going to SOMEONE ELSE.

It's not the Politicians.  They never spend their own money, they steal yours and spend it the way they want on your behalf!  Even worse, they won't spend the money fairly or wisely.
rt this dilly of a pickle just in.

"The scramble (to now get out of latest storm Ritas way) comes amid new questions about the city's flood-protection system. While the Army Corps has said flooding resulted because Katrina's storm surge exceeded what the barriers were designed to protect, investigations by The Washington Post and The New York Times on Wednesday quoted experts saying faulty design and inadequate construction played more of a factor.

Meteorologists also have questioned whether New Orleans got the full brunt of Katrina's Category 4 power, as the Corps has maintained. Both newspapers cited researchers arguing that storm surges didn't cascade over the floodwalls."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...rricane_katrina

rt was it you or someone else who posted earlier that the politicians had long ago considered using funds to build up the levees, but they all pooh poohed it and the levees were left as is.

Skandery what you wrote about building it right makes complete sense.  However is it reasonable to expect the politcos to change how they have operated and will continue operate one iota?

 

Offline JoMal

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2005, 11:48:53 AM »
Quote
Don't presume to tell me about Amsterdam, I've been there, pal!  I know all about the place, very friendly people, speak english, brew great beer, cut diamonds, have a great Ven Gogh museam and a floating hotel I stayed at.  Good cheese too.  Nice liberal people, too bad the weather sucks.

Yes it is under sea level and they filled in a giant inlet to provide them with more land for growing.   But being under sea level isn't the problem, as long as you don't have storm surges threatening to come over the top of the dykes.

NO is a bit different, sandwiched in between a lake and the Missisippi.  Forget about dykes, the whole city needs to be raised up, something that couldn't have been done while it was inhabited.  Just fill up the bowl with dirt and stone and keep pilling it up until it's 20 feet above sea level.  Establish building codes to handle the high winds and then you've got a place that can last.  And you could even bury people and not worry about the water digging them up.
 :nod:

You don't need a dutchman to tell you that!

The comparison with Bangladesh is apt, as both cities are in the middle of river deltas and both are subject to severe storms and heavy rains.  And there are a hell of a lot more people living in Dacca than in NO!
The threat of storm surges to the Netherlands does not come from the North Sea. It comes from the flood surge generated by heavy weather throughout Europe that drains too much water into the Rhine River and causes flooding, some severe.

Since the Rhine drains into the North Sea in and around Holland, the people there had to build canals and levees to guard against this annual flood surge, but Mother Nature being as fickle as she is, occasionally this is not enough. The pressure on the dykes has to be tested every year until perfected.

Efforts to raise the level of New Orleans certainly is one way to combat future flooding, and it has precedence. Seattle did this, quite successfully, around Pioneer Square, and they have a fascinating tour you can take there that allows you to walk the streets of Old Seattle one floor below the current street level. Their problem was tidal surges that would inundate the whole downtown area.

Of related interest, the very first Crappers used in this country were installed in Seattle. Old Thomas Crapper's device that he claimed through purchasing patents for it (he did not invent it himself) caught on big time there. The only problem was the tidal surge was, shall we say, unpredictible. Being "clever" and "hardy" individuals, the Seattle residents at first developed these tower-like outhouses to combat this tidal surge, as all Crappers drained into "Pughget" Sound back then.

But, as stated, this unpredictible tidal surge would convert the Crappers into impressive fountains at certain times of the day. God help anyone who could not time his bowel movements to these tidal surges, as they could find themselves blown clean through the roof of their outhouses at the top of a spray of ocean water forced through the pipes to douse their hineys clean up to their chins.  These natural bidets had the added bonus of saving hundreds of pennies on toilet paper each year, but the citizens were getting a bit tired of flying over the city with their pants down around their ankles, screaming for someone to catch them.

Thus motivated, the citizens met near Pioneer Square to discuss what to do about this issue. Laws were considered to ban anyone from bowel movements between the hours of tidal surges, but food being unpredictably unclean back then made this alternative literally run out of steam. Putting outhouses on pylons that could sort of float up and down with the tide apparently were considered unsafe, plus some individuals claimed to get "toilet-motion" sick, and the basin needed to help allievate this illness was otherwise occupied at the same time, so after much discussion, it was voted down.

As the long day progressed, nervous citizens began glancing up in the sky in case someone might get caught as the tide came in and a flying Seattlite could do a splat-landing on their heads. At last, some bright young lad, new to the area, piped up, saying "why not raise the city to a height ABOVE the tidal surge?"

After a moment of dead silence, uproarious laughter cracked up the crowd, splitting the sides of grizzled tidal veterans, many still sore from their last encounter with ocean water. Just then, Obidile Phartjuice landed amongst the crowd, smudging the coveralls of the loggers with unidentifiable residue. Suddenly, this idea was not so funny, and the townspeople, thus motivated, began building scaffolding on the spot to raise downtown - and the rest is history.

This is (mostly) a true story. Bet you can't pick out the parts that I embellished.  
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

jn

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2005, 12:45:57 PM »
Here's a link to a good article about the Netherlands.  

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5619488.html

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2005, 06:29:28 PM »
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Bet you can't pick out the parts that I embellished.

I would have gone the other way, JoMal -- I always have a hard time picking the truth out of your posts!  You are to embellishment what Joe is to loquaciousness.

Offline JoMal

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Would you rebuild New Orleans
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2005, 08:07:38 PM »
Quote
Quote
Bet you can't pick out the parts that I embellished.

I would have gone the other way, JoMal -- I always have a hard time picking the truth out of your posts!  You are to embellishment what Joe is to loquaciousness.
I always edit Joe's posts before reading them. It changes the meaning a bit, but no one seems to notice when I repost them.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."