Author Topic: OT: Joe V, I seez ya lurking!  (Read 7243 times)

jn

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OT: Joe V, I seez ya lurking!
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2004, 11:03:47 AM »
Hey Joe, great to see you here.

Am I suffering some sort of hallucination or did you just refer to Elden Campbell as a bruiser?   :o  

As for GP not "needing" the spotlight that's a tough thing to prove.  Yes he did sign knowing he would no longer be The Man on offense, and promptly started bitching about it and never stopped.  I've really turned on him this year.  He's a mediocrity now, a total gravy trainer and godawful baby.
 

Offline Joe Vancil

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OT: Joe V, I seez ya lurking!
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2004, 11:21:02 AM »
In terms of post offense, Elden Campbell *IS* a bruiser.  He's not going to shoot jumpers, or turn-arounds, but is going to go with little spins to the basket.  Yes, I know, that's a far cry from Moses Malone and Kareem and Parish and the like - or from Ewing and Olajuwon and Robinson.  But all told, in this day and age, Campbell is a post center who relies on traditional center play.  He's rare in that facet of his game.  It's not something Shaq is used to seeing - which translates to something that Shaq isn't used to defending.  Campbell, as well as Okur, is going to have to step it up considerably for Detroit to win.
 
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Offline Derek Bodner

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OT: Joe V, I seez ya lurking!
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2004, 11:30:10 AM »
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As for Wallace (I'm referring to Rasheed...I hope you were, too) - the guy has precious little of either pride or ego.  He's an angry man who isn't really sure why he's angry, but he knows there's a reason to be.  If he had pride, he'd be focusing on improving his game and making use of some of the natural talent he has.  If he had ego, he'd spend more time talking down those people who shadow his accomplishments.  Wallace is simply a WASTE.
This I'm going to disagree with you on here.  I don't remember very many (if any) reports of Sheed not working on his game.  I've always heard he's a dedicated practice player.  Then you watch him in these playoffs, consistently taking the oppositions best post threat (kmart, then j.o.), and I tend to think he has a lot of pride.  Someone without pride, who's a waste, doesn't worry about that end of the court (RE: Glenn Robinson), doesn't put in the requisite work to be a very good defender.  Doesn't relish a the role of being a staple on a record setting defensive team, even if he doesn't get the shot opportunities he once had.  Last night, watch Jermaine back in, spin to the center of the paint, go for the turnaround only to have it sent back in his face by Wallace, Rasheed, not Ben.  I don't call it ego or a waste, I call it a prideful basketball player who had a problem overreacting and controlling his temper, a problem which appears to be in the past.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2004, 11:39:38 AM »
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Baseball is an entirely different animal that basketball.  A better comparison is football.  Baseball has an entire minor league system, fully functional, with each team having minor league affiliates.  Major league teams essentially run those minor league affiliates, thus deciding the development process for the players they sign.

Nobody gets on a HS kid who gets a job selling cars, McDonalds, Circuit City, supermarket checker, etc....  It's total BS to get on HS kids just cause they have the option of making millions playing pro-sports.  You could risk career ending injuries in college just as much as in the pro's so why risk it?  There is NO VALID argument against HS kids joining the NBA.  So what if they are on the bench, that means THAT particular player was not good enough just like every other job.  While there are more players that don't contribute early on there are those exceptions.  Kobe would have done better had there not been a better player at his position.  Amare, LeBron and M. Malone are examples of players who an made immediate IMPACT in the NBA.  KG and Kobe are examples of players who made contributions to the NBA.  

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Football and basketball have a single development process:  sign the kid, and put him on the roster.  College acts as the only development these kids have.  So we pay to watch a player not play, while taking the roster spot of a person who presumably might play.  And this means that we now have NBA farm teams:  Chicago, the Clippers, etc. - teams that take other players, develop them, and then lose them to free agency when the player becomes passable.  It's bad for basketball all the way around.

You CANNOT tell a kid to pass up millions and risk getting ZERO by going to college.  Playing against pro's in practice IMO is more beneficial than playing against college kids in games.

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And personally, I don't see why anyone can't hold Kobe Bryant accountable for his decision to skip college, and thereby short-cutting the possibility of adding additional accomplishments to his list.  Consider this:  had Bryant attended two years of college, and then come out early, it's extremely likely he'd have put up the same kind of numbers that he did in his third season.  Bryant was a bit player his first two years in the pros...despite that completely undeserved All-Star selection his second year.  Folks act as if Byrant had no choice - that he did what he had to do.  That's garbage.  He *CHOSE* to forgo college.  I, for one, say that he should be held accountable for not having the accomplishments from that.

See comments above.  Dan Gadzurick ring a bell?  How about Hank Gathers?  Had he gone pro not only would he have been gaurtanteed millions but maybe the pro-doctors would have monitored his situation better and he would still be alive today.  Of course you can point to Reggie in Boston to counter that point about pro doctors but you must agree that the heathcare system in the pro's is better than in college.

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Futhermore, you can't say any player who won a starting job at North Carolina was just "riding coattails."  No, Jordan wasn't "the man" for North Carolina.  Then again, Kobe wasn't "the man" in LA's previous titles.  If you want to discount Jordan's accomplishments at Carolina, or on the 1984 or 1992 Olympic teams, then you need to discount Kobe's accomplishments to this point as a Laker.

Wrong.  Jordan hit one big shot to catapult him to star status, prior to that he was a role player ala Rick Fox or Derek Fisher.  Kobe has carried the Lakers on his back durring the regular season and won critical playoff games at every level of the NBA.  You can't compare one shot in one game for MJ at NC to Kobe's routine clutch performances when the games are on the line.  That's BS.

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Ego isn't about mouth, WayOut.  Ego is about how good you looking getting where you're going.  Payton proved he could sacrifice ego by signing on to play third or fourth fiddle on the Lakers.  He knew his numbers would go down, that he'd make less money, and that he'd hurt future earning potential as well.  Sure, Payton is mouthy on the court;  Reggie Miller is another good example.  Neither is currently as talented as Bryant - I don't think that's a question - but they talk a lot more than Bryant.  Yet Bryant, despite his talent, is the one with the ego.  It's about being in the spotlight with him.  The only reason Payton and Miller were ever in the spotlight is because they earned it - not because they "needed" it.

You picked the wrong guys for your example.  Payton ego is obvious on the court, but he romoves any doubt with his mouth.  Kobe is alot smarter than that off the court.  Payton bitched and moaned about playing time, amoung other things, despite his minutes only going down by 2, YES TWO, freaking minutes.  Payton still thinks he's the "Glove".

Miller has the BIGGEST ego of the three.  He actually said ON CAMERA when Rik Smits hit a last second game winning shot in the playoffs that while he was happy with the win the would have preferred to have hit that shot himself!  WTF!?!?

Sorry, but Kobe's ego is no bigger than most super stars in the league.  Kobe doesn't even have the biggest ego on the Lakers, he's behind Shaq and Fox in that regard.

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I'd think the Clipper fans would revolt at the thought of losing, but so far, they haven't.  Brand being there or not being there won't change that one iota.  The team is suffering from severe head-rot.  The team will never be a serious contender for anything other than the lottery as long as Sterling is the owner.  For the good of the sport, that guy has got to go.

Lossing to US Clipper fans is kinda like a bad fart, after a while you get use to the stentch and you don't even notice it.

I'm actually hopefull for the Clippers because they hired a decent coach.  I wasn't fooled by the Brand and Magette contracts like most Clipper fans, Stern was forced into that because of the NBA imposed MINIMUM payroll requirement.  I'd like to see the Clips hold onto Q and sign a big name FA, they have the money to do it.
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Offline Derek Bodner

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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2004, 11:53:59 AM »
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There is NO VALID argument against HS kids joining the NBA.

How is it so much different than a job requiring a college degree?

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2004, 02:13:56 PM »
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Quote
There is NO VALID argument against HS kids joining the NBA.

How is it so much different than a job requiring a college degree?
There are certain jobs that do require training/education (i.e. Architecture, Engineering, Accounting, etc...)

There are certain jobs that don't require training/education (i.e. basketball, painting art, music, flipping burgers).

Sure some jobs would be advantagous to be trained/schooled in but a guy with raw talent (i.e. artist/b-ball player) could do just as well if not better than you.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Derek Bodner

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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2004, 02:27:54 PM »
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There are certain jobs that do require training/education (i.e. Architecture, Engineering, Accounting, etc...)

There are certain jobs that don't require training/education (i.e. basketball, painting art, music, flipping burgers).

Sure some jobs would be advantagous to be trained/schooled in but a guy with raw talent (i.e. artist/b-ball player) could do just as well if not better than you.

Right, but who's job is it to decide if the field does require training?

The employers.

If the NBA decides that "4 years of college level training, or equivalent" is required to get the proper training, they have the right to do so.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2004, 02:33:17 PM »
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Quote
There are certain jobs that do require training/education (i.e. Architecture, Engineering, Accounting, etc...)

There are certain jobs that don't require training/education (i.e. basketball, painting art, music, flipping burgers).

Sure some jobs would be advantagous to be trained/schooled in but a guy with raw talent (i.e. artist/b-ball player) could do just as well if not better than you.

Right, but who's job is it to decide if the field does require training?

The employers.

If the NBA decides that "4 years of college level training, or equivalent" is required to get the proper training, they have the right to do so.
Wrong.

Buisness 101: MONEY talks.

People are willing pay for the HS kiddie, LeBron proved that in tickets, jerseys, etc....

To a certain extent, same for Kobe, KG and Amare.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Derek Bodner

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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2004, 04:26:33 PM »
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Wrong.

Buisness 101: MONEY talks.

People are willing pay for the HS kiddie, LeBron proved that in tickets, jerseys, etc....

And, it is still david stern's decision to make.  HE guides the nba and it's marketing machine, and HE has said he would like to see something done.

If he's willing to accept any potential marketing hits, and he think it's more important to improve the game, than it's his decision.  There's nothing preventing him from doing so.

The NFL has marketed itself quite well without allowing high schoolers.  LeBron and Amare will be marketed, whether that's now or 4 years down the road.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2004, 04:45:14 PM »
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If he's willing to accept any potential marketing hits, and he think it's more important to improve the game, than it's his decision.  There's nothing preventing him from doing so.
 
Wrong.

Money prevents him from doing things that would hurt the NBA.  Not allowing HS kids to earn top dollar in the NBA would hurt the NBA buisness but would be good for basketball in general.

If you're not willing to do the things to make you successfull somebody else will.  Don't kid yourself into thinking that doesn't apply to every buisness under the sun, of course their are exceptions but the NBA is OBVIOUSLY not one of them.

All you have to do is see how the seats to the All-Star games are distributed.  Fans get nearly zilch, the rest go to current and future NBA sugar daddy's.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Joe Vancil

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OT: Joe V, I seez ya lurking!
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2004, 05:25:36 AM »
WayOut,

     I wasn't aware the NBA had any competition in the arena of professional basketball.  After all, if there was a competitor, why didn't Latrell Sprewell just go there when his contract was voided by the Warriors?  

     Overseas?  When Arvydas Sabonis came to play in the NBA, he was considered Europe's greatest player.  He'd won Olympic gold and bronze medals.  And nobody had heard of him.  In contrast, how many people knew who Carmelo Anthony was when he came in as a rookie?

     The NBA has no meaningful competition.  "If you don't do it, somebody else will" is meaningless if there's no one else to do it.


                                                 Joe
 
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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2004, 10:13:58 AM »
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WayOut,

     I wasn't aware the NBA had any competition in the arena of professional basketball.  After all, if there was a competitor, why didn't Latrell Sprewell just go there when his contract was voided by the Warriors?  

     Overseas?  When Arvydas Sabonis came to play in the NBA, he was considered Europe's greatest player.  He'd won Olympic gold and bronze medals.  And nobody had heard of him.  In contrast, how many people knew who Carmelo Anthony was when he came in as a rookie?

     The NBA has no meaningful competition.  "If you don't do it, somebody else will" is meaningless if there's no one else to do it.


                                                 Joe
Joe,

Euro/South American Leagues play guys as young as 15.  If the NBA puts age restrictions on players then why wouldn't you goto these "other" leagues until you meet the age requirements of the NBA and skip college anyway.  It makes perfect sense to me because you are risking career ending injuries playing in college and not getting a single cent.  
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Derek Bodner

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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2004, 10:59:41 AM »
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Euro/South American Leagues play guys as young as 15. If the NBA puts age restrictions on players then why wouldn't you goto these "other" leagues until you meet the age requirements of the NBA and skip college anyway. It makes perfect sense to me because you are risking career ending injuries playing in college and not getting a single cent.

People already do that, and all the time.  But it's to improve stock and recognition to get yourself INTO the nba.  No current leagues are in a position where they are forcing able players away from the nba.

as for marketing, they're not going to hurt the nba.  there's a swingman in europe called nocioni, very entertaining player whom many nba teams covet.  He's getting older now (old enough to graduate college), but hasn't been able to come over to the league because of a high buyout clause in his contract.  Has the nba lost profit because they haven't been able to market nocioni?  Did they lose money by not having that french guy that was on the mavs for a week (rigadeua?), who was supposed to be the next big thing?   No.

Foreign prospects spend big bucks to GET THEMSELVES in the nba with these buyout clauses.  While some players may forego college and play overseas, when they are able to they will come running back, with their tail between their legs, trying to get in the NBA.  They are not going to go overseas to a different basketball league and stay there for life.

The employer (NBA) is in the position of power here, not the employees (high school players).  To go with your comparison, it's like a doctor foregoing college to go flip burgers.  The payscale for top flight players is so drastic that players will continue to try to get into the nba.

Will there be a mass exodus against college basketball?  Not likely, for the same reaons high school stars aren't doing that now, or in the past.  You go to college for one of two reasons, to play on a big-time stage to get recognition, or to go to college for the college experience.  American born players who go to Europe are viewed as players who couldn't achieve success at this level.  For someone with NBA aspirations, this isn't a good thing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 12:36:43 PM by dbodner »

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2004, 12:34:52 PM »
Money does talk...which is why players want to up their stock overseas and return back to the NBA where the pay day is.  If the compeition was able to pay the players more then believe me alot of them would run overseas and stay if the $$$ was right.
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Offline RolandoBlackman

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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2004, 12:46:02 PM »
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Hey y'all!

First of all...great posting!

"You have to understand he doesn't want to leave.  He wants to win.  He is a competitor.  How would you feel if you showed up for work, pulled alot of weight, and had one of your co-workers every so often try to discredit what youve done?  Better yet I know youve worked with a guy who has a HUGE ego.  I think all of us have.  Imagine working with a guy like Shaq on top of what I mentioned above.  You are right his ego does have a little bit to do with it....but at the end of the year I believe he will choose to be a winner rather than a superstar on a team that is home every summer."

While on the surface these statements have a grain of truth, IMHO #8 is gone, whether he will or he nil.  If he avoids the 4 to 25, his overriding desire to be "The Man" will cause him to show the LAL he doesn't need them to be a winner (yeah, right) by exiting after this season ends.  If that LAL-McGrady deal  comes off (and I remember in an interview a while back, McGrady said he wanted to play with Shaq under almost any circumstances - he expressed amazement at Kobe's lack of appreciation for the "Unstoppable Juggernaut" that is "The Pachyderm"...listen to Charles Barkley or just about any NBA player and you will know who the key to "Our Heroes"'success is - "The Big Unguardable"), "Our Heroes" will keep rolling under "Diesel Power" without missing a beat until Yao's services are secured, I think.  Come on, Mitch - make it happen!  

And, JoeV. (man, it's been a LONG time) how can you say that 'The Daddy' is not used to going up against an opponent with the kind of game that Elden Campbell has?  What about TD, whose game has ever facet of Campbell's ability tucked into a small corner of his massive skill-set?  One of the greatest visuals of this year's playoffs was the great D that Shaq (#1) put on TD when he hit that shot ("one lucky shot deserves another" - S. O'Neal) that appeared to be the 'death blow' putting the LAL down for the count..until the now-famous '0.4' shot by D-Fish.  This is something that Shaq never seems to get credit for (one-on-one defense) - his ability as a defender is classified in the Mark Eaton category, it seems.  

Shaq will have his way against the Pistons in the post, there can be no question of this.  Ben has about as much chance of suvccessfully guarding Shaq as 'Mad Dog' did.

All of Los Angeles is supremely confident of a Figueroa parade in 2 more weeks...we will see.

-RB

Shaq #1