Author Topic: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?  (Read 4186 times)

Offline Randy

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What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« on: August 06, 2012, 07:33:34 AM »
I will have to get back to this later but saw an all-time Lakers team someone put together that I hated.  It brought back some thoughts on different teams that have had some great talent over the years.

Offline Randy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 05:19:35 PM »
Okay, here is my All-Time Lakers line-up:

Starting Roster:
PG - Magic Johnson (arguably the best PG to ever play the game)
SG - Kobe Bryant (not the best SG of all time but being #2 isn't that bad when the #1 is MJ)
SF - Elgin Baylor (tempted to put Worthy here but Baylor is better -- even if he was a little short for SF -- his game sure wasn't - single handedly brought the Lakers squad back from the dead)
PF - Pau Gasol (best PF to ever play for the Lakers.  Actually, PF is the Lakers least position of depth but Pau is rock solid here)
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (IMO, the best center to ever play the game.  Great shot blocker, rebounder and unstoppable offensively)

Bench:
PG - Jerry West (still the trademark of the NBA - Mr. Clutch is amazing to have to come off the bench)
SG - Gail Goodrich (this guy was great and is often overlooked in Lakers history but he was good enough and he got us the rights to Magic Johnson)
SF - James Worthy - (Loved being able to watch James Worthy - this guy would have been a superstar on most other teams but was a star with the Lakers - good shooter, great scorer)
PF - Vern Mikkelson (this guy is old-school but he was the rock solid and IMO is the Lakers #2 PF of all time)
C - Shaquille O'Neal (wow, Shaq coming off the bench -- what would he do to most back-up centers?)

Reserve:
SG/SF - Michael Cooper (I was almost tempted to put him before Goodrich but I think it's because he is one of my favorite players of all time)
C - Wilt Chamberlain (okay, this is a struggle since he really didn't come to LA before he was advanced in years but he is still quite a guy to come in for 7-10 minutes a game)

Personal Favorites:
Jamaal Wilkes -- love to watch this guy shoot
Robert Horry -- always hit big shots for the Lakers but not good enough to make this roster

Overall - I like this teams chance against any team ever -- fantastic offensively, good defensively (interior defense is phenomenal and several outstanding perimeter defenders along with some that weren't so great - like Magic, lol), fanastic passing, incredible rebounding and shotblocking.  How about this team vs. the 2012 Redundant Team?  lol

Offline ziggy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 05:53:51 PM »
I made this decision based upon win shares and also offensive rating (points scored per 100 possessions) and defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions), during their peak years, with the Blazers.

Starters
PG - Terry Porter  120 Off     106  Def     .178 WS/48 min
SG - Clyde Drexler  116 Off     104  Def     .201 WS/48 min
SF  -  Kiki Vandeweghe  122  Off     112  Def     .173 WS/48 Min 
PF  -  Buck Williams  119 Off     104  Def     .148 WS/48 min
C  -  Arvydas Sabonis  112 Off     96  Def     .210  WS/48 min

Bench
PG - Rod Strickland  112 Off     105  Def     .153 WS/48 Min (this was for his 4 years in Portland)
SG - Brandon Roy  120 Off     109  Def     .148 WS/48 min  (only had 2-1/2 peak years)
SF - LaMarcus Aldridge  114 Off     107 Def   .158 Ws/48 min  (Ok this is a stretch to play him at SF, but so what)
PF  - Rasheed Wallace   109 Off     100 Def     .163 WS/48 Min  (I went with Buck Williams because he was +15 points to Rasheed only being +9.  Buck's role was different, but he played his role better)
C  -  Bill Walton  no offensive rating  90 Def  .212 WS/48 Min  (only had 1-3/4 peak years, Sabonis had 5 nearly identical seasons)

I wonder how this group would fair against the 1992, 1996, 2008, and 2012 Dream Teams?  I will work on that.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline ziggy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 05:55:48 PM »
Okay, here is my All-Time Lakers line-up:

Starting Roster:
PG - Magic Johnson (arguably the best PG to ever play the game)
SG - Kobe Bryant (not the best SG of all time but being #2 isn't that bad when the #1 is MJ)
SF - Elgin Baylor (tempted to put Worthy here but Baylor is better -- even if he was a little short for SF -- his game sure wasn't - single handedly brought the Lakers squad back from the dead)
PF - Pau Gasol (best PF to ever play for the Lakers.  Actually, PF is the Lakers least position of depth but Pau is rock solid here)
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (IMO, the best center to ever play the game.  Great shot blocker, rebounder and unstoppable offensively)

Bench:
PG - Jerry West (still the trademark of the NBA - Mr. Clutch is amazing to have to come off the bench)
SG - Gail Goodrich (this guy was great and is often overlooked in Lakers history but he was good enough and he got us the rights to Magic Johnson)
SF - James Worthy - (Loved being able to watch James Worthy - this guy would have been a superstar on most other teams but was a star with the Lakers - good shooter, great scorer)
PF - Vern Mikkelson (this guy is old-school but he was the rock solid and IMO is the Lakers #2 PF of all time)
C - Shaquille O'Neal (wow, Shaq coming off the bench -- what would he do to most back-up centers?)

Reserve:
SG/SF - Michael Cooper (I was almost tempted to put him before Goodrich but I think it's because he is one of my favorite players of all time)
C - Wilt Chamberlain (okay, this is a struggle since he really didn't come to LA before he was advanced in years but he is still quite a guy to come in for 7-10 minutes a game)

Personal Favorites:
Jamaal Wilkes -- love to watch this guy shoot
Robert Horry -- always hit big shots for the Lakers but not good enough to make this roster

Overall - I like this teams chance against any team ever -- fantastic offensively, good defensively (interior defense is phenomenal and several outstanding perimeter defenders along with some that weren't so great - like Magic, lol), fanastic passing, incredible rebounding and shotblocking.  How about this team vs. the 2012 Redundant Team?  lol

I will take your team using Win Shares / 48 minutes for a 4 years peak and compare them to each dream team based upon their prior years stats.  Top 5 get 30 minutes, next 5 get 18 minutes.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline Randy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 08:39:03 PM »
Awesome -- I'd like to hear how it works out.

Offline ziggy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 01:38:48 AM »
OK this is what I did (sorry I don't know how to format it better)
On the various Olympic teams I used the players stats for the previous NBA season.  I did not include Laettner, Okafor, or Anthony Davis because they hadn't yet played in the NBA.
For the Franchise dream teams I used the players 5 best consecutive season with that franchise.  So Wilt years in Philly weren't counted for instance, just his 5 best consecutive Lakers years.  If there weren't 5 years then I went with as many as possible.  With Brandon Roy I used his 3 peak season, and Walton his two peak seasons.

For 12 man rosters I went with 27 mpg for the starters and 15 mpg for bench players (1996, 2000, 2008, Randy's Lakers)
For 11 man rosters I went with 30 mpg for the starters and 15 mpg for bench players (1992, 2004, 2012)
For 10 man rosters I went with 30 mpg for the starters and 18 mpg for bench players (ziggy's Blazers)

For the players who played before 1979 there is no offensive or defensive rating, so I just averaged the players I could.  There was WS data for every player.


1992 Dream Team   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
David Robinson   30   118.0   94.0   0.260
Karl Malone   30   118.0   103.0   0.237
Scottie Pippen   30   114.0   102.0   0.192
Michael Jordan   30   121.0   102.0   0.274
Magic Johnson   30   124.0   105.0   0.251
Patrick Ewing   15   112.0   98.0   0.198
Charles Barkley   15   119.0   106.0   0.205
Larry Bird   15   112.0   104.0   0.159
Clyde Drexler   15   117.0   103.0   0.223
John Stockton   15   120.0   104.0   0.215
Chris Mullin   15   118.0   110.0   0.155
Christian Laettner   0   0.0   0.0   0.000
1992 Dream Team   240   118.0   102.0   0.224
            
1996 Dream Team   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Hakeem Olajuwon   27   108.0   101.0   0.166
Karl Malone   27   117.0   102.0   0.233
Charles Barkley   27   115.0   105.0   0.191
Scottie Pippen   27   116.0   101.0   0.209
John Stockton   27   125.0   108.0   0.214
David Robinson   15   120.0   96.0   0.290
Shaquille O'Neal   15   110.0   103.0   0.171
Grant Hill   15   110.0   102.0   0.172
Reggie Miller   15   121.0   110.0   0.188
Mitch Richmond   15   115.0   110.0   0.151
Gary Payton   15   112.0   102.0   0.174
Penny Hardaway   15   122.0   107.0   0.229
1996 Dream Team   240   116.0   104.0   0.200
            
2000 Dream Team   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Vince Carter   27   112.0   105.0   0.182
Kevin Garnett   27   107.0   99.0   0.172
Jason Kidd   27   106.0   98.0   0.156
Alonzo Mourning   27   112.0   96.0   0.226
Gary Payton   27   114.0   104.0   0.195
Shareef Abdur-Rahim   15   108.0   106.0   0.132
Ray Allen   15   115.0   110.0   0.157
Vin Baker   15   99.0   106.0   0.059
Tim Hardaway   15   106.0   105.0   0.123
Allan Houston   15   108.0   105.0   0.130
Antonio McDyess   15   103.0   104.0   0.110
Steve Smith   15   120.0   104.0   0.186
2000 Dream Team   240   109.0   103.0   0.161
            
2004 Dream Team   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Tim Duncan   30   107.0   89.0   0.249
Allen Iverson   30   96.0   102.0   0.066
Shawn Marion   30   107.0   102.0   0.135
Dwyane Wade   30   101.0   102.0   0.103
Amare Stoudemire   30   102.0   103.0   0.105
Carmelo Anthony   15   102.0   105.0   0.098
Carlos Boozer   15   113.0   101.0   0.174
LeBron James   15   99.0   104.0   0.078
Richard Jefferson   15   110.0   100.0   0.168
Stephon Marbury   15   109.0   107.0   0.144
Lamar Odom   15   102.0   98.0   0.134
Emeka Okafor   0   0.0   0.0   0.000
2004 Dream Team   240   104.0   101.0   0.132
            
2008 Dream Team   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Dwight Howard   27   113.0   99.0   0.200
Chris Bosh   27   117.0   105.0   0.200
LeBron James   27   116.0   104.0   0.242
Kobe Bryant   27   115.0   105.0   0.208
Chris Paul   27   125.0   103.0   0.284
Carlos Boozer   15   112.0   103.0   0.173
Tayshawn Prince   15   112.0   106.0   0.133
Carmelo Anthony   15   109.0   107.0   0.140
Deron Williams   15   118.0   110.0   0.177
DeWyane Wade   15   103.0   110.0   0.082
Jason Kidd   15   104.0   105.0   0.097
Michael Redd   15   112.0   115.0   0.104
2008 Dream Team   240   114.0   105.0   0.184

            
2012 Dream Team   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Tyson Chandler   30   130.0   99.0   0.220
LeBron James   30   118.0   97.0   0.298
Kevin Durant   30   114.0   101.0   0.230
Kobe Bryant   30   105.0   106.0   0.132
Chris Paul   30   126.0   104.0   0.278
Kevin Love   15   117.0   104.0   0.223
Andre Iguodala   15   108.0   98.0   0.158
Carmelo Anthony   15   106.0   102.0   0.160
James Harden   15   125.0   105.0   0.230
Deron Williams   15   106.0   111.0   0.099
Russell Westbrook   15   108.0   105.0   0.163
Anthony Davis   0   0.0   0.0   0.000
2012 Dream Team   240   116.0   102.0   0.209
            
Randy's Lakers   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Magic Johnson   27   122.4   106.2   0.240
Kobe Bryant   27   112.6   106.0   0.200
Elgin Baylor   27         0.190
Pau Gasol   27   121.8   103.6   0.270
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   27   116.0   99.4   0.250
Jerry West   15         0.240
Gail Goodrich   15         0.127
James Worthy   15   117.4   107.8   0.163
Vern Mikkelson   15         0.185
Shaquille O'Neal   15   115.4   99.8   0.259
Michael Cooper   15   114.6   107.0   0.120
Wilt Chamberlin   15         0.209
Randy's Lakers   240   117.0   104.0   0.211
            
Ziggy's Blazers   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
Terry Porter   30   120.6   106.2   0.184
Clyde Drexler   30   117.2   104.2   0.209
Kiki Vandeweghe   30   122.0   112.0   0.173
Buck Williams   30   119.0   104.0   0.148
Arvydas Sabonis   30   112.0   96.0   0.210
Rod Strickland   18   112.0   105.0   0.153
Brandon Roy   18   120.0   109.0   0.148
LaMarcus Aldridge   18   114.0   107.0   0.158
Rasheed Wallace   18   109.0   100.0   0.163
Bill Walton   18      90.0   0.212
   0         
   0         
Ziggy's Blazers   240   117.0   104.0   0.178

Here is the overall ranking by win share
   Min/Game   Off   Def   WS
1992 Dream Team   240   118.0   102.0   0.224
Randy's Lakers   240   117.0   104.0   0.211
2012 Dream Team   240   116.0   102.0   0.209
1996 Dream Team   240   116.0   104.0   0.200
2008 Dream Team   240   114.0   105.0   0.184
Ziggy's Blazers   240   117.0   104.0   0.178
2000 Dream Team   240   109.0   103.0   0.161
2004 Dream Team   240   104.0   101.0   0.132


I did head to head matchups based upon offensive and defensive rating.  Basically I averaged the points scored per 100 possession's by one team and the points allowed per 100 possessions for the other team

1992 Dream Team versus Randy's Lakers   
Average 1992 Offense and Laker Defense   111.0
Average 1992 Defense and Laker Offense   109.5
Winner 1992 Dream Team   win 111-109.5
   
1992 Dream Team versus 2012 Dream Team   
Average 1992 Offense and 2012 Defense   110.0
Average Dream Team Defense and Laker Offense   109.0
Winner 1992 Dream Team   win 110-109
   
2012 Dream Team versus Randy's Lakers   
Average 2012 Offense and Laker Defense   110.0
Average 2012 Defense and Laker Offense   109.5
Winner 2012 Dream Team   win 110-109.5
   
1996 Dream Team versus Ziggy's Blazers   
Average 1996 Offense and Blazer Defense   110.0
Average 1996 Defense and Blazer Offense   110.5
Winner Ziggy's Blazers   win 110.5 -110
   
2008 Dream Team versus Ziggy's Blazers   
Average 2008 Offense and Blazer Defense   109.0
Average 2008 Defense and Blazer Offense   111.0
Winner Ziggy's Blazers   win 111-109


The worst Dream Team top 5 players based upon their previous season WS

#1 Vin Baker  .059  that is equivalent to 24 win team
#2 Allen Iverson  .066  that is equivalent to 27 win team
#3 LeBron James 2004 Team immediately after his rookie season  .078 that is equivalent to 32 win team
#4 D Wade  2008 team  .082  that is equivalent to 34 win team
#5 Jason Kidd  2008 team  .097   that is equivalent to 40 win team

A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Randy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 09:27:51 AM »
Okay, that sure seemed like a lot of work Ziggy and it is cool.  Personally, I don't think the Blazers beat the 1992 Dream Team -- MJ would have played heavy minutes and IMO, he wills them to win the game.  Also, I don't think Mullins would have ever seen the light of day against a team like that (same with Laettner).  Read an article the other day trying the make the point that the only reason Mullins was chosen was because he was white.  I don't know whether to agree with that or not but he sure wasn't a good choice.  A good shooter from outside but that's about it and there were better shooters in the league who could actually contribute in other areas too.  Bottom line, IMO, is that MJ might play 48 minutes but he wouldn't let the 92 Dream Team lose.  And the rebounding margin wouldn't even be close either.

I also don't know about the Lakers Dream Team vs. the current Dream Team.  At some point, you could just put Wilt in and lob it to the top of the backboard for a dunk, lol.  I think the lack of size of this current team would have negated their quickness.  It's neat to see it all on paper but it does miss the intangibles.  I don't think most teams have that big a line-up to challenge the current Dream Team.  Spain does but that team is pretty decimated by injuries at this point.  If they were a healthy team, I think that would be a pretty good game.  I think Brazil showed that a team with some real bigs could hurt the USA team but I think in the end the intangibles of players like LeBron, Durant and Kobe -- they are just too much and would always make the play that won the game. 

And we didn't even get into coaching.  Coack K vs. PJ or Riley (I think I would take PJ over Riley).

I would have loved to see Sabonis play for the Blazers when he was healthy -- you just didn't get enough chance to see him play internationally when he was young. 

Offline ziggy

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Re: What would be your teams all-time Dream Team?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 01:02:56 PM »
Okay, that sure seemed like a lot of work Ziggy and it is cool.  Personally, I don't think the Blazers beat the 1992 Dream Team -- MJ would have played heavy minutes and IMO, he wills them to win the game.  Also, I don't think Mullins would have ever seen the light of day against a team like that (same with Laettner).  Read an article the other day trying the make the point that the only reason Mullins was chosen was because he was white.  I don't know whether to agree with that or not but he sure wasn't a good choice.  A good shooter from outside but that's about it and there were better shooters in the league who could actually contribute in other areas too.  Bottom line, IMO, is that MJ might play 48 minutes but he wouldn't let the 92 Dream Team lose.  And the rebounding margin wouldn't even be close either.

I also don't know about the Lakers Dream Team vs. the current Dream Team.  At some point, you could just put Wilt in and lob it to the top of the backboard for a dunk, lol.  I think the lack of size of this current team would have negated their quickness.  It's neat to see it all on paper but it does miss the intangibles.  I don't think most teams have that big a line-up to challenge the current Dream Team.  Spain does but that team is pretty decimated by injuries at this point.  If they were a healthy team, I think that would be a pretty good game.  I think Brazil showed that a team with some real bigs could hurt the USA team but I think in the end the intangibles of players like LeBron, Durant and Kobe -- they are just too much and would always make the play that won the game. 

And we didn't even get into coaching.  Coack K vs. PJ or Riley (I think I would take PJ over Riley).

I would have loved to see Sabonis play for the Blazers when he was healthy -- you just didn't get enough chance to see him play internationally when he was young.

Certainly the Blazers Dream Team wouldn't have beaten either the 1992 Dream Teams in a one game do or die, but the 2012 that is much closer.  In a 7 game series then I think the Blazers could have easily won a game against the 1992 team, probably two. 

Sabonis and Walton at their NBA peak would have clearly negated any great Dream team advantage in the middle.

Porter, Buck Williams and Drexler were contemporaries of the 1992 Dream Team, and they were the core of the team that went to the finals twice and had the best regular season record in between.  They played Malone, Stockton, Jordan, Barkley, Magic, Bird et al, regularly and did well against them. 

Vandeweghe was top 10 in the NBA in win shares for 4 of his 5 peak seasons, his career offensive rating is 5th all-time (Chris Paul, Reggie Miller, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton are the top 4).  During his 4 years with the Blazers he was the 5th best offensive player in the league.

Roy was an all-star for all three of his peak years, was 2nd and 3rd team all-nba, and would in all probability be playing on this Dream team if he hadn't broken down.  LaMarcus was an all-star and was selected to play for this years Olympic team, but didn't because of injuries. 

Rasheed's defense was excellent, he is 26th all-time in defensive win shares, and with his ability to shoot deep he would have given Malone, Barkley, and Bird serious fits. 

Strickland would be the weakest member of the team, but his 4 Blazers season were his peak years.  For his career he is 9th all-time in assists, 37th all-time in steals, 13th all-time in assist %, so he was a very good NBA player

If I were to add 2 more players to make the Blazers a 12 team roster I would probably add Steve Smith (2 seasons) and Maurice Lucas (3 seasons).  Steve Smith when he was a Blazer was an excellent NBA player.  Those teams were so deep because of that he gets forgotten. 

Mo Lucas in his 3 full seasons in Portland was a tremendous player.  He won a title, and the next season they probably would have won a second if not for injuries.

As far as the minutes played, obviously Jordan would have played as many minutes as necessary to win, but I think it is important to realize that in a 7 game series against any of these teams, it would have been very difficult for anyone to play much more than 36 minutes a night.  Take Jordan vs your Lakers.  He would have 27 minutes vs Kobe at his peak, 15 minutes vs West at his peak and 6 minutes vs Cooper at his peak.  Playing defense at the high level necessary to contain Kobe and West, and then have to score against Cooper and Kobe would have forced him to the bench.  This is especially true in a 7 game series.  Why have Jordan's productivity drop over those last 12-18 minutes, when you can bring in Clyde Drexler and not have much of a drop in production?

As far as Mullin, I will defend his choice some.  Mullin is a HoFer and he was all-NBA first team that year, was third in the league in points, and was clearly at his peak.  For the role he played on that team, the only players who weren't selected that were eligible that perhaps should have been considered I would say are Jeff Hornacek, or Terry Porter.  Mullin was a HoFer and neither of those two were.

I agree that the 2012 Dream team would struggle against the Laker bigs.  Jabbar/Shaq/Wilt vs Chandler/Love is not close.  I would love to watch Magic vs Chris Paul, that would have been tremendous.  The strength of this years Dream Team is it's wings.  LeBron, Durant, Harden, Kobe, Iguodala is really tremendous.  In a 7 game series, it would go 7 games.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:03:03 PM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil