OT: Proud to be an American?

[WayOutWest]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3674355.stm

US deplores Iraq prisoner abuse

President George W Bush has denounced the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops as "despicable".

A day after CBS television broadcast images of the alleged abuse, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said such behaviour would not be tolerated.

There is widespread outrage at the graphic images - one shows a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals.

Last month, the US army suspended 17 soldiers over alleged prisoner abuses.

Elsewhere in Iraq, US marines have begun withdrawing from the Iraqi city of Falluja after a month of bloody clashes with rebels.

"The military is taking strong action against the individuals responsible for these despicable acts" - Scott McClellan, White House spokesman

Two battalions have been pulling back from front-line positions and are set to move further out during the day.

A new Iraqi force, led by one of Saddam Hussein's former generals, is expected to move into the city while the US maintains a presence outside the flashpoint city.

Six soldiers - including a brigadier general - are facing court martial in Iraq, and a possible prison term over the PoW pictures taken at the notorious Abu Ghraib detention facility in Baghdad.

The naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted, CBS said.


"Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now" - Adnan Al-Pachachi, Iraqi Governing Council  

Another image shows naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts. In another, a female soldier, with a cigarette in her mouth, simulates holding a gun and pointing at a naked Iraqi's genitals.

CBS News said it delayed the broadcast for two weeks after a request from the Pentagon due to the tensions in Iraq.

President Bush has known about the allegations of misconduct "for a while" and expects "appropriate action to be taken against these individuals," the White House spokesman said.

"We will not tolerate it," Scott McClellan said.

"The military has made it very clear that they are going to pursue, to the fullest extent of the law, these individuals," he said.

Politicians in the US, Britain and the Middle East have expressed disgust at the images.

A spokesman for UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "appalled" and described the incident as regrettable.

"Nobody underestimates how wrong this is, but these actions are not representative of the 150,000 coalition soldiers in Iraq. We shouldn't judge the actions of coalition soldiers as a whole by the actions of a few," he said.

Abu Ghraib prison was much feared in Saddam Hussein's era

US Republican congressman, Jim Leach - who had opposed the war - said: "The US has historically prided itself on treating prisoners of war with decency and respect.

"This has to be investigated and accountability obtained within the American military justice system."

Adnan Al-Pachachi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, said it would create a great deal of anger and discontent among Iraqis already concerned about security in the country.

But he rejected a comparison with the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad during the days of Saddam Hussein.

"I don't think you can compare the two. Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now."

One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."
 

[WayOutWest]

Hmmmmmmm...

 

[WayOutWest]

So I guess nobody had an opinion on this?

[jn]

Nope. Can't we talk about the end of Friends now?  

[WayOutWest]

Nope. Can't we talk about the end of Friends now?

"Friends"? Is that KG/Spree/Casell new nickname?

Lakers haven't been "Friends" all year but I think it's comming to an end as well.

[Lurker]

My opinion is that this was a terrible injustice and that the people involved should be held accountable.

In the past few days I find it interesting that Rumsfeld knew about these things in January but didn't deem it important enough to inform the American people.   At least not until the media got ahold of the pictures....and then it is all damage control.  Claims that the investigators will work their way up the chain of command.  But guess who is the commander in chief?  And now he claims that another top adviser didn't keep him involved.  

And today news is released that

the International Red Cross said it had repeatedly asked U.S. authorities to "take corrective action" over the months the abuses occurred.

Also Congress is wondering why they are out of the loop

Asked on CBS'"The Early Show" whether Bush should fire Rumsfeld, Sen. John McCain declined Thursday to "presume to tell the president what he should do." But the Arizona Republican added, "It's obvious that there's a lot of explaining that Secretary Rumsfeld and others have to do, including why Congress was never informed as to this."

IMO just another case of the secrecy & private agenda of this administration.  One controversy after another....but not just about sexual fun with interns or questionable land deals....but about events that effect the US in its dealings with the rest of the world.  Does Bush have any clue to what is going on in his administration?  Do we really need another four years of this type of leadership?

Quotes taken from the following article:
link

[WayOutWest]

My opinion is that this was a terrible injustice and that the people involved should be held accountable.

In the past few days I find it interesting that Rumsfeld knew about these things in January but didn't deem it important enough to inform the American people.   At least not until the media got ahold of the pictures....and then it is all damage control.  Claims that the investigators will work their way up the chain of command.  But guess who is the commander in chief?  And now he claims that another top adviser didn't keep him involved.  

And today news is released that

the International Red Cross said it had repeatedly asked U.S. authorities to "take corrective action" over the months the abuses occurred.

Also Congress is wondering why they are out of the loop

Asked on CBS'"The Early Show" whether Bush should fire Rumsfeld, Sen. John McCain declined Thursday to "presume to tell the president what he should do." But the Arizona Republican added, "It's obvious that there's a lot of explaining that Secretary Rumsfeld and others have to do, including why Congress was never informed as to this."

IMO just another case of the secrecy & private agenda of this administration.  One controversy after another....but not just about sexual fun with interns or questionable land deals....but about events that effect the US in its dealings with the rest of the world.  Does Bush have any clue to what is going on in his administration?  Do we really need another four years of this type of leadership?

Quotes taken from the following article:
link

The fact that the Bush administration is dishonest is nothing new and not really the point of me bringing up the article.

The reason I threw that "Lord of the Flies" reference is because, like the book, the BBC story is about US as people.  This country is no different and no less full of nuts than the countries we chastise and despise.  Killing men, women and children is not the exlusive domain of "terrorists" nor is inhumand treatment of POW's and civilians caught in the line of fire.  I've known about what the US military is capable as far as astrocities and cover-ups because I worked with a gunnery sargent that was in the gulf war and he had tons of war stories.  Some of those stories were sickening and he didn't get involved because of his morals but he was pretty much forced to witness those acts.

So when I hear how bad Saddam and his people where for killing children, raping women and torture I just have to roll my eyes.

[Guest_Randy]

What has been done is deplorable, indefensible and beyond justification.  The abusers and those who took part need to be held accountable.

However, I'd like to point out the reverse of this as well.  The "international community" is "outraged" by these events -- and justifiably so -- but where is the outrage for what has happened to American (and other nations as well) soldiers who have been desecrated?  Who've been dragged through the streets -- their bodies stripped, mutilated, etc.  Where is the "outrage" about that?  

I am truly sickened and upset by these pictures of enemy prisoners of war -- but I'm also quite upset that worse than this can happen to American soldiers and the fact is that NOBODY in the international community seems to care.  How many countries owe the US?  Because of our strength?  Because of our economy?  And it's okay for American soldiers to be beaten, killed, mutilated, stripped and desecrated -- that's okay.  But the things that our soldiers have done have created an "outrage"?  

The fact is that American people, as a whole, will place value on the lives of the Iraqi soldiers and their rights when the International Community seems to feel that the US doesn't have the right to insist that Iraqi's respond with the same values.  This is an injustice -- and it's about time to make sure that the International Community is faced with this inequality.  That we treat ALL nations to the same standards and not just the US.

[WayOutWest]

What has been done is deplorable, indefensible and beyond justification.  The abusers and those who took part need to be held accountable.

However, I'd like to point out the reverse of this as well.  The "international community" is "outraged" by these events -- and justifiably so -- but where is the outrage for what has happened to American (and other nations as well) soldiers who have been desecrated?  Who've been dragged through the streets -- their bodies stripped, mutilated, etc.  Where is the "outrage" about that?  

I am truly sickened and upset by these pictures of enemy prisoners of war -- but I'm also quite upset that worse than this can happen to American soldiers and the fact is that NOBODY in the international community seems to care.  How many countries owe the US?  Because of our strength?  Because of our economy?  And it's okay for American soldiers to be beaten, killed, mutilated, stripped and desecrated -- that's okay.  But the things that our soldiers have done have created an "outrage"?  

The fact is that American people, as a whole, will place value on the lives of the Iraqi soldiers and their rights when the International Community seems to feel that the US doesn't have the right to insist that Iraqi's respond with the same values.  This is an injustice -- and it's about time to make sure that the International Community is faced with this inequality.  That we treat ALL nations to the same standards and not just the US.

I completely agree Randy but bear in mind the hypocracy of the people of US thinking we're somehow better or more rightgeous than the people we despise and/or are fighting.

Side note, after reading some of the things the prisoners where forced to do I think the military is full of fags.  Maybe Cuban and the Maloof brothers should be made honorary Generals?

[Ted]

Actually Rumsfeld did tell the American people about it.

Back in February he announced an investigation into severe mistreatment and abuse of prisoners in Coalition detention facilities in Iraq. Look it up. I'm practically quoting his briefing. He did not go into details of what kind of abuse because he didn't want to compromise the Pentagon investigation. But he was quite forthright about the fact that such abuses occurred. The secretive bastard.

[Lurker]

Actually Rumsfeld did tell the American people about it.

Back in February he announced an investigation into severe mistreatment and abuse of prisoners in Coalition detention facilities in Iraq. Look it up. I'm practically quoting his briefing. He did not go into details of what kind of abuse because he didn't want to compromise the Pentagon investigation. But he was quite forthright about the fact that such abuses occurred. The secretive bastard.

Then why is Bush now claiming that Rumsfeld didn't inform him?  Rumsfeld told the American people but forgot to tell his boss?

[Guest_Randy]

What has been done is deplorable, indefensible and beyond justification.  The abusers and those who took part need to be held accountable.

However, I'd like to point out the reverse of this as well.  The "international community" is "outraged" by these events -- and justifiably so -- but where is the outrage for what has happened to American (and other nations as well) soldiers who have been desecrated?  Who've been dragged through the streets -- their bodies stripped, mutilated, etc.  Where is the "outrage" about that? 

I am truly sickened and upset by these pictures of enemy prisoners of war -- but I'm also quite upset that worse than this can happen to American soldiers and the fact is that NOBODY in the international community seems to care.  How many countries owe the US?  Because of our strength?  Because of our economy?  And it's okay for American soldiers to be beaten, killed, mutilated, stripped and desecrated -- that's okay.  But the things that our soldiers have done have created an "outrage"?   

The fact is that American people, as a whole, will place value on the lives of the Iraqi soldiers and their rights when the International Community seems to feel that the US doesn't have the right to insist that Iraqi's respond with the same values.  This is an injustice -- and it's about time to make sure that the International Community is faced with this inequality.  That we treat ALL nations to the same standards and not just the US.

I completely agree Randy but bear in mind the hypocracy of the people of US thinking we're somehow better or more rightgeous than the people we despise and/or are fighting.

Side note, after reading some of the things the prisoners where forced to do I think the military is full of fags.  Maybe Cuban and the Maloof brothers should be made honorary Generals?

Bear in mind the hypocrisy of the rest of the world to condemn the US soldiers and remain silent while Iraqi's parade dead soldiers through the streets.  IF the US did this, the rest of the world would go ballistic -- but when the Iraqi's do it, it's silence.  That is hypocrisy.  

[WayOutWest]

Actually Rumsfeld did tell the American people about it.

Back in February he announced an investigation into severe mistreatment and abuse of prisoners in Coalition detention facilities in Iraq. Look it up. I'm practically quoting his briefing. He did not go into details of what kind of abuse because he didn't want to compromise the Pentagon investigation. But he was quite forthright about the fact that such abuses occurred. The secretive bastard.

Then why is Bush now claiming that Rumsfeld didn't inform him?  Rumsfeld told the American people but forgot to tell his boss?

Don't confuse Ted with facts!

[WayOutWest]

What has been done is deplorable, indefensible and beyond justification.  The abusers and those who took part need to be held accountable.

However, I'd like to point out the reverse of this as well.  The "international community" is "outraged" by these events -- and justifiably so -- but where is the outrage for what has happened to American (and other nations as well) soldiers who have been desecrated?  Who've been dragged through the streets -- their bodies stripped, mutilated, etc.  Where is the "outrage" about that? 

I am truly sickened and upset by these pictures of enemy prisoners of war -- but I'm also quite upset that worse than this can happen to American soldiers and the fact is that NOBODY in the international community seems to care.  How many countries owe the US?  Because of our strength?  Because of our economy?  And it's okay for American soldiers to be beaten, killed, mutilated, stripped and desecrated -- that's okay.  But the things that our soldiers have done have created an "outrage"?  

The fact is that American people, as a whole, will place value on the lives of the Iraqi soldiers and their rights when the International Community seems to feel that the US doesn't have the right to insist that Iraqi's respond with the same values.  This is an injustice -- and it's about time to make sure that the International Community is faced with this inequality.  That we treat ALL nations to the same standards and not just the US.

I completely agree Randy but bear in mind the hypocracy of the people of US thinking we're somehow better or more rightgeous than the people we despise and/or are fighting.

Side note, after reading some of the things the prisoners where forced to do I think the military is full of fags.  Maybe Cuban and the Maloof brothers should be made honorary Generals?

Bear in mind the hypocrisy of the rest of the world to condemn the US soldiers and remain silent while Iraqi's parade dead soldiers through the streets.  IF the US did this, the rest of the world would go ballistic -- but when the Iraqi's do it, it's silence.  That is hypocrisy.

WTF Randy? What part of "I completely agree" don't you understand?

Don't EXCUSE our behavior because someone else is doing it as well.  I don't give a rat's arse what the rest of the world is or isn't doing, the US is still what it is despite that.  Not to mention you don't hear/see all the BS the US commits because the we are 1000X better at hiding it.  I have no problem shooting first and asking questions later when it comes to one's life and safety (i.e. launching a grenade into a building because it's safer then going in there with a rifle, then later discovering 3 dead families ), but to think that only OTHERS do that because it doesn't get reported in the media is ignorance.  Put me in that situation and I would do the exact same thing, better them than me, but I'm not going to kid myself and think I'm better than the next guy.

[Ted]

Actually Rumsfeld did tell the American people about it.

Back in February he announced an investigation into severe mistreatment and abuse of prisoners in Coalition detention facilities in Iraq. Look it up. I'm practically quoting his briefing. He did not go into details of what kind of abuse because he didn't want to compromise the Pentagon investigation. But he was quite forthright about the fact that such abuses occurred. The secretive bastard.

Then why is Bush now claiming that Rumsfeld didn't inform him?  Rumsfeld told the American people but forgot to tell his boss?

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Rumsfeld hiding it from the American people. My bad.  :huh:

As far as why President Bush didn't hear about it directly and why he doesn't hear about what his own Secretary of Defense says in a press briefing, well . . . maybe the President was too busy play Navy Seals SOCOM on his PS2 to watch that briefing.