Author Topic: Can a coach be traded?  (Read 5170 times)

Offline Reality

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Can a coach be traded?
« on: January 26, 2010, 03:09:19 AM »
zig, dabods, other intelligents on the subjects of NBA contracts and related. 
Can an NBA coach be traded?
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4424/aaron-mckie-is-not-the-only-nba-coach-who-could-get-traded

Offline ziggy

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 09:27:38 AM »
A players contract can be traded, so I assume a coaches can.  Hasn't happened in a long time but there were baseball managers traded before.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline Reality

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 11:32:34 AM »
zioggy can you dig deeper?  The internets is not answering my question so far. 
dabods where are you?

Offline Reality

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 01:25:30 PM »
Like the NFL allowed Jon Gruden to be traded to Tampa Bay in exchange for 4 draft picks.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 05:25:17 PM »

What is the purpose of this question?

Some NBA coaches demand a lot of money, but few if any of them would want to go anywhere else.  Some of them, like Eddie Jordan shouldn't even be in the league.  The Sixers would be glad to palm him off on someone else, but no one would take him. 
\
Charlie Rosen gave the Sixers a grade of F+. I don't know what the plus is for in this instance. I'd give them an F-.

Offline ziggy

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 07:01:57 PM »
zioggy can you dig deeper?  The internets is not answering my question so far. 
dabods where are you?

Coaches don't have a collective bargaining unit, so it would be dependent upon the specific language of each individual contract, so there is really no place on the web to find out any specifics.

In the case of Gruden, I don't believe he was technically traded though the effect was the same.  The Raiders let him negotiate a contract with Tampa Bay, and once they had an agreement, then they both mutually agreed to void the contract, and Tampa agreed to send draft picks to Oakland.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 10:15:19 PM »
Ziggy- have you checked out Martin Armstrong?

Offline ziggy

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 01:02:04 AM »
I didn't read the entire paper you linked to (that was like 6 months ago), but I did read some of it.  I have to be honest, much of it was outside my normal way of thinking, so it is as they say "Greek to me".  I may not have fully understood it.

I am not one that gives a lot of credence to technicals on a long term basis, though I do believe that there is some validity to technicals on a short-term basis.  There are support and resistance levels that people use to make decisions.  I have seen that clearly with currency.  Commodities will trade in a small band between support and resistance.  Once these levels are breached, then trading patterns change.  People buy on dips, and sell on peaks, and there is a pattern to that trading.  So I believe there is some benefits to technicals on a short-term basis.  As far as Elliot Wave, or Fibonacci I know very little about the specifics to be able to offer an opinion one way or another.  I do know from my own experience, for instance, that you cannot predict market changes from a 10, 20, 30, 45, or 60 day moving average (high or low), but if you get a 20, 30, 45, and 60 low or high at the same time, then that will clearly signal a market change, and you buy or sell depending upon your situation.

On a long-term basis I think technicals have much less value.  Short-term trading is often driven off of high volume, very low margin, high turnover trading.  If you lose in a short-term technical trade, even just a little, you should accept your loss and get out.  This minimizes your loss, but if the technical indicators are right 2/3 of the time you will come out ahead.  Long-term technicals though I believe are most often a misperception between correlation and causation.  Long-term trading should be based upon fundamentals, as you will take a position, and then hold regardless of short-term movement, because you believe there is a fundamental value that is not priced appropriately.  You hold until it is priced appropriately, or even overpriced, and then you sell.  Fundamental value is not under-priced, accurately-priced, or over-priced in a cyclical and repeating pattern.

This not to say that you cannot use certain technical indicator to predict a future circumstance.  For instance

http://blog.mises.org/archives/011516.asp

tells you a great deal, and you can use that as a clear indicator of a cyclical change, but you cannot use it to predict a specific point where that change will happen.  I don't buy much of what Keynes had to say, but one thing I do agree with is "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent".
 
I just don't believe long-term "cyclical" changes are of a definable and repeatable term or length.  That is what I believe that Armstrong was saying, and that I don't buy.  The reason things happen in a cyclical manner is not because of a consistent and repeatable pattern, but because of some clearly defined causal relationship.  That causal relationship it not a function of time.

I can't recall all the specifics that Armstrong wrote, it has been a number of months, but as I recall he charts recessionary periods, and measures those as a set of time-defined waves.  He sees a number of repeating wave patterns.  I read something about this kind of concept a few years back.  Much of how the waves were defined and when the periods were considered to begin and end etc, and the definition of the smaller waves in between the larger waves, was adjusted to fit the wave pattern.  In other words there was not actually a clearly defined wave pattern, but rather a set of cycles of varying lengths.  So what seemed like a high degree of correlation was actually much more random than it first appeared.  I am not inferring that regarding Armstrong, because I am nowhere near qualified to pass that kind of a judgment.  That is just the bias I have towards or against long-term technical analysis.

I believe that Mises clearly understood and articulated what causes the cycles to happen.  They are cycles, but they are of indeterminate length, and are not correlated to time, but rather to some other causation.  The two best books I have ever read regarding that are

http://mises.org/store/Causes-of-the-Economic-Crisis-The-P323.aspx

and another author (actually a non-Austrian school author) dealing with emerging market economies

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Volatility-Machine/Michael-Pettis/e/9780195143300/?itm=1&usri=the+volatility+machine

I also believe that this book describes some of my bias towards technical trading tools. 

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Black-Swan/Nassim-Nicholas-Taleb/e/9781400063512/?itm=2&usri=the+black+swan

"A black swan is a highly improbable event with three principal characteristics: It is unpredictable; it carries a massive impact; and, after the fact, we concoct an explanation that makes it appear less random, and more predictable, than it was."  I think Taleb falls into the trap that he is trying to describe, ie he has created a narrative to explain a specific type random event, but I believe his thesis has merit.

A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2010, 01:44:59 PM »
Ziggy, I placed a link down below in the other category just recently on Martin.

His most recent articles on Gold and the Currency Exchange rate were very illuminating, at least to me.

It is hard to embrace the concept that Man is somehow tied to cycles beyond his control, or ability to change. But when you study Martin's perspective it becomes much clearer as he defines the dynamic- the two conflicting aspects of human behavior as a never-ending struggle between Government control and dominance over an economy and Private wealth, it starts to make more sense.

If people could really study and understand the past, then maybe politicians wouldn't make the same mistakes over and over again.  But the past is so obscured and the changes in the way money and power are so intertwined, that without access to a lot of information, it's hard to put the pieces together.  And most people are too lazy to put forth that type of effort.

Any physicist knows that nothing that occurs in the physical world is random. That is to say, there is always a direct causal relationship. Is it really that hard to believe that human behavior and perspectives work in the same way?

According to Armstrong, governments maintain and extend power through their ability to create money, But they cannot restrain themselves from overspending and devaluing the currency so much that something which was so respected as a safe store of value becomes worthless. When that happens the government loses control, and public opinion demands a change. Then the people with private wealth remake the system to suit themselves. Their greed and uneven distribution of wealth, gets everyone outside their circle upset. So they appeal to the government which has to respond. And once again you see government restricting private enterprise and placing ever greater regulations on them- "to make things more fair" (SIC).

That it happens in specific time cycles is the hard part to embrace, but nonetheless, history shows that all Civilizations rise and decline and while the specific reasons are different, they apparently occur in a repeatable pattern.

Technical Analysis is different than actual research, which he does. In addition, I never saw anybody use Technical Analysis the way I do- something that I figured out on my own. But when someone annotates a chart like I do, how can I help but respect him and his insights. I don't think TA is predictive, with the exception of Fibbonacci numbers and arithmetical functions, like french curves.  I simply use it to follow trends, buying and selling on the basis of the pure discipline of doing what the lines tell me. Wave patterns- like charting the price of a stock over time are fractile in nature. If you look at a chart without any time information, you can't tell any  difference between a daily chart, a weekly one, or even longer. They all look the same.

All life is based on fractils, written into our DNA. Not only are the patterns repeating, but are repeating in terms of dimension and propagating through time in accordance with number series like Fibbonacci and the golden Phi ratio. And yet, somehow we believe that our minds are different....on some level all things are connected and what one aspect does propagates changes to others.  We're in the middle of it, so it's very hard to see with your perceptions. It takes effort to study and see these things, something beyond most of us.

But not, apparently beyond Martin Armstrong, who our government placed behind bars. Martin's only real crime is sharing his understanding with everyone. Like Promethius, he is chained for his trouble. The government does not like to be exposed for what it is, anymore than Tiger Woods wanted anyone to know what he did in his private life.  How can we escape from our own nature, if we can't see it?

Offline Reality

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2010, 05:02:01 PM »
What is the purpose of this question?
Main reason is to find out if so.
If so, the possibilities are endless.
I'd like to get Chris Bosh over to the Spurs.  Imagine if the Raptors front office drank the same kool aid that Lurker and fellow PopApologists drink.  Bosh for Pop.  Toss in Richard Jefferson and Finley to make the dollars work and then the Raptors would have to add someone.

Tim Dunkan, Bosh and Blair frontline.  Do you like the Spurs Championship chances better with this frontline or with the current roster with Pop at the helm?

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 05:12:08 PM »
What is the purpose of this question?
Main reason is to find out if so.
If so, the possibilities are endless.
I'd like to get Chris Bosh over to the Spurs.  Imagine if the Raptors front office drank the same kool aid that Lurker and fellow PopApologists drink.  Bosh for Pop.  Toss in Richard Jefferson and Finley to make the dollars work and then the Raptors would have to add someone.

Tim Dunkan, Bosh and Blair frontline.  Do you like the Spurs Championship chances better with this frontline or with the current roster with Pop at the helm?

My guess is that you cannot trade a coach for a player.  Coach's contracts and terms are structured differently, and good coaches with long-tenure like Pop are closer to upper management than the players are. In other words, if the team isn't winning, and you have a proven coach, the logical tendency would be to replace players and keep the coach. Pop isn't going anywhere, IMO, unless he wants to.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2010, 05:17:14 PM »


Tim Dunkan, Bosh and Blair frontline.  Do you like the Spurs Championship chances better with this frontline or with the current roster with Pop at the helm?

Only someone who is totally clueless about the sport of basketball would think in an era of dominant wing players and NBA rules encouraging perimeter play that lining up with NO TRUE SF is a path to winning.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline Reality

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2010, 05:39:25 PM »
My guess is that you cannot trade a coach for a player. 
I don't think so either or we would have seen it done.
But i'd still like to find out for a fact.

Offline ziggy

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2010, 06:03:07 PM »
My guess is that you cannot trade a coach for a player. 
I don't think so either or we would have seen it done.
But i'd still like to find out for a fact.

I don't believe there is a rule against it.  In the case you refer to, the Spurs would have to have the cap space to absorb the entire amount of Bosh's contract.  If they choose to send a coach back in return there is nothing in the rules that restrict that.  The trade rules are a part of the collective bargaining agreement between the players and owners.  They just have to follow those rules, and coaches are not a part of that CBA.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline Reality

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Re: Can a coach be traded?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2010, 02:56:54 PM »
I don't believe there is a rule against it.  In the case you refer to, the Spurs would have to have the cap space to absorb the entire amount of Bosh's contract.  If they choose to send a coach back in return there is nothing in the rules that restrict that.  The trade rules are a part of the collective bargaining agreement between the players and owners.  They just have to follow those rules, and coaches are not a part of that CBA.
FinleyBonner, Jefferson and Pop in exchange for Bosh.