Author Topic: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.  (Read 16533 times)

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 01:04:36 PM »
But that cuts both ways, Rick.  A bad offense worsens a defense, a good offense helps a defense;  a good defense helps an offense, a bad defense hurts an offense.  That's because transition and floor balance a critical to both aspects.

I believe that picking a criteria and saying, "If we do this - AND ONLY THIS - everything else will be fine."  The closest criteria I've ever really seen that works that was is rebounding (especially offensive rebounding), but sure enough, all the time, you see teams that win the rebounding battle, but lose the game.

The question is whether the Sixers defense or its offense is the problem.  I think that ziggy's numbers pointed out that BOTH are problematic (given that they're in the bottom half on both), and that comparitively, the defense is worse.  While it would be an interesting exercise to examine if team philosophy plays into the poor performance of either, it would also be somewhat subjective, and therefore, arguable, and ultimately, inconclusive.

Your argument that "it doesn't matter how efficient they are at it as long as they score the points" is missing the point, because it also doesn't matter how efficient they are defensively as long as they don't allow the points.  It's the old offense vs. defense argument:  if you score no points, you can't possibly win;  if you allow no points, you can't possibly lose;  do both, and you're still playing.

I think Lurker's argument (I believe it was Lurker) that pointed out that few if any games have ANY team scoring 25 in all four quarters is the most telling.

However, this does make a great lead-in to ziggy's "Frank Layden suggestion" thread - which, if you'll remember, you said you don't like.  Isn't that somewhat in conflict with this idea at its very core?
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2010, 03:27:12 PM »
Actually if one wanted to approach an analysis on this subject I would think they would start by calculating Philly's scoring on a quarter by quarter basis.  Then determine what 1 standard deviation (SD) from that number is for each quarter.  Then look at wins and losses and see if there is any correlation between being more than 1 SD away for a quarter (or more) and wins/losses.  Also you would want to determine if being under in 1 quarter is offset by being over in another. 

The reason behind this is that everyone should understand that scoring over a game is not a linear event.  Teams tend to play their bench more in the second quarter than the first.  And the fourth quarter is subject to wild swings depending on the closeness of a game (garbage time or not).  But due to the high number of variables involved I doubt there is much validity in this analysis.
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 03:47:45 PM »
Why do you value these ratings more that you do the actual scoring? The outcome is determined by the score, and it doesn't matter how efficient they are at it as long as they score the points! Besides, Ziggy you know enough about basketball to know that a bad offense feeds the other teams offense and therefore harms your defense.  If the Sixers improved offensively, there would be fewer easy baskets for the other team and curiously enough, their defensive stats will improve!

You have to watch the Sixers play to see where the breakdowns are! When you see them taking and missing bad shot after bad shot, while the other team keeps getting layups off your misses, you recognize the problem ain't defense, the defense isn't being given a chance. You can't know this looking at the numbers.

That's why using stats in isolation is useless. Sure they're ranked lower in defense, the way they play offense they'd have to be!

#1 Rick, please show me where I said that these stats are more important than scoring?  All I did was post a set of numbers, and drew a simple conclusion from those numbers.  If you don't like that they refute your point you are free to say they have no value, but of course that doesn't mean that they don't have value.

#2 Rick, if using stats in isolation is useless why did you offer stats in isolation?  Excuse me, but that is the pot calling the kettle black.  You created a model that the Sixers (or virtually any other team) could not possibly be successful meeting on a consistent basis, and then used that as a justification for a point of view.  Yet you offered no context with which to evaluate the relative value of your measure.
A quick study of 100 games shows that a team scored at least 25 point in every regulation qtr exactly 8 times, or only 4% of teams were able to accomplish this particular feat.  To expect the Sixers to do this regularly is ridiculous.  If Sixers were league average they would have done it slightly less than two times, and according to you they haven't done it yet.  Those 2 games are "proof positive" that the Sixers problem is their offense?

#3 Rick, re "a bad offense feeds the other teams offense and therefore harms your defense" please read Joe's post.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2010, 02:27:47 PM »
But that cuts both ways, Rick.  A bad offense worsens a defense, a good offense helps a defense;  a good defense helps an offense, a bad defense hurts an offense.  That's because transition and floor balance a critical to both aspects.

I believe that picking a criteria and saying, "If we do this - AND ONLY THIS - everything else will be fine."  The closest criteria I've ever really seen that works that was is rebounding (especially offensive rebounding), but sure enough, all the time, you see teams that win the rebounding battle, but lose the game.

The question is whether the Sixers defense or its offense is the problem.  I think that ziggy's numbers pointed out that BOTH are problematic (given that they're in the bottom half on both), and that comparitively, the defense is worse.  While it would be an interesting exercise to examine if team philosophy plays into the poor performance of either, it would also be somewhat subjective, and therefore, arguable, and ultimately, inconclusive.

Your argument that "it doesn't matter how efficient they are at it as long as they score the points" is missing the point, because it also doesn't matter how efficient they are defensively as long as they don't allow the points.  It's the old offense vs. defense argument:  if you score no points, you can't possibly win;  if you allow no points, you can't possibly lose;  do both, and you're still playing.

I think Lurker's argument (I believe it was Lurker) that pointed out that few if any games have ANY team scoring 25 in all four quarters is the most telling.

However, this does make a great lead-in to ziggy's "Frank Layden suggestion" thread - which, if you'll remember, you said you don't like.  Isn't that somewhat in conflict with this idea at its very core?


Good gracious....what am I saying?  Talk about a horribly written post.  Let's try that second paragraph again.

I believe that picking a criteria and saying, "If we do this - AND ONLY THIS - everything else will be fine" is a mistake.  The closest criteria I've ever really seen that works that way with any success is rebounding (especially offensive rebounding), but sure enough, all the time, you see teams that win the rebounding battle, but lose the game.
Joe

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Offline marklapinski

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 08:43:44 PM »
This thread is a head banger. ???

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2010, 11:32:15 PM »
Yeah.  I pretty much started ignoring it after I proved the fallacy in his "proof" and he ignored it.

Basically, it went like this:
Rick: The Sixers problem is offense.  I'm going to prove this by showing in all the Sixers losses, they failed to score 25 points in at least one quarter.
Me: Rick, no team in the NBA this week has scored 25 points in every quarter in any one game.
Rick: "25 points is still a good rule of thumb even if no team actually does it in a game"
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:35:24 AM by Derek Bodner »

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2010, 04:52:15 PM »
Yeah.  I pretty much started ignoring it after I proved the fallacy in his "proof" and he ignored it.

Basically, it went like this:
Rick: The Sixers problem is offense.  I'm going to prove this by showing in all the Sixers losses, they failed to score 25 points in at least one quarter.
Me: Rick, no team in the NBA this week has scored 25 points in every quarter in any one game.
Rick: "25 points is still a good rule of thumb even if no team actually does it in a game"

And, it is still a good rule of thumb.  There are 15 teams in the NBA that average 100 points a game or higher. Their average score per quarter is logically equal to or greater than 25. Furthermore, ranked in terms of point differential,  7 of the top 8 teams all score 100 per game, and the only exception, Boston averages over 99.  In other words the "GOOD" teams.

There are 4 teams that average over 100 and have losing records. So scoring more isn't always enough.

In the Sixers case if their current defensive effort is at least maintained, improving the offense will improve both defensive and offensive efficiency.  The Sixers currently give up 99.5 ppg to their opponents. Obviously, if they're going to have a winning record, they need to average scoring higher than that, which gets us to 100! I suspect that if the Sixers can increase their scoring by another 2.77 ppg, they will also see a slight decrease in points allowed to 98.8 or so.  This in turn would make the Sixers into a wining team.

In effect, we're talking about 2 possessions per game being used more successfully. Since most teams score in about half their possessions, it's really 4 more plays where they execute on offense and get a score, a foul, both, or at least a rebound and another shot and score.

There isn't a lot of difference between wining and losing for a lot of teams, but they don't seem able to change they're style enough. Everyone here who watches the Sixers cries about how Eddie manages the game. I think the biggest problem is that he doesn't emphasize inside scoring enough. There are rarely enough bigs on the floor, but when there are the Sixers are usually competitive.

In the Sixers case, it's easy enough to see how they could improve.  Getting rid of Jordan would be the first step, but any new coach would play Speights and Carney more, focus on getting a reliable half-court offense working and then worry about how to improve their defense when it has time to get set. 

Offline ziggy

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2010, 05:24:02 PM »
And, it is still a good rule of thumb.  There are 15 teams in the NBA that average 100 points a game or higher. Their average score per quarter is logically equal to or greater than 25. Furthermore, ranked in terms of point differential,  7 of the top 8 teams all score 100 per game, and the only exception, Boston averages over 99.  In other words the "GOOD" teams.

There are 4 teams that average over 100 and have losing records. So scoring more isn't always enough.

In the Sixers case if their current defensive effort is at least maintained, improving the offense will improve both defensive and offensive efficiency.  The Sixers currently give up 99.5 ppg to their opponents. Obviously, if they're going to have a winning record, they need to average scoring higher than that, which gets us to 100! I suspect that if the Sixers can increase their scoring by another 2.77 ppg, they will also see a slight decrease in points allowed to 98.8 or so.  This in turn would make the Sixers into a wining team.

In effect, we're talking about 2 possessions per game being used more successfully. Since most teams score in about half their possessions, it's really 4 more plays where they execute on offense and get a score, a foul, both, or at least a rebound and another shot and score.

There isn't a lot of difference between wining and losing for a lot of teams, but they don't seem able to change they're style enough. Everyone here who watches the Sixers cries about how Eddie manages the game. I think the biggest problem is that he doesn't emphasize inside scoring enough. There are rarely enough bigs on the floor, but when there are the Sixers are usually competitive.

In the Sixers case, it's easy enough to see how they could improve.  Getting rid of Jordan would be the first step, but any new coach would play Speights and Carney more, focus on getting a reliable half-court offense working and then worry about how to improve their defense when it has time to get set. 

#1 Rick, a rule of thumb is not proof positive.

#2 Scoring 100 or more points, and scoring 25 points in every qtr are not as simply analogous as you make it.  You can score 120 points and only score 15 in 1 qtr.


Why do you value these ratings more that you do the actual scoring? The outcome is determined by the score, and it doesn't matter how efficient they are at it as long as they score the points!

#3  How do you make your last post, in conjunction with this statement.  You tell me it doesn't matter how efficient they are, and then in a later post you say that only 2 possessions define your success.  That is efficiency Rick.  If you said they need to get 4 more possessions, that is pace.  If you say they need to just execute on 2 more of their existing possessions that is efficiency.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 05:25:42 PM by ziggy »
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Offline RickyPryor

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2010, 07:27:44 PM »
D.

Fence.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2010, 04:30:36 PM »
And, it is still a good rule of thumb.  There are 15 teams in the NBA that average 100 points a game or higher. Their average score per quarter is logically equal to or greater than 25. Furthermore, ranked in terms of point differential,  7 of the top 8 teams all score 100 per game, and the only exception, Boston averages over 99.  In other words the "GOOD" teams.

There are 4 teams that average over 100 and have losing records. So scoring more isn't always enough.

In the Sixers case if their current defensive effort is at least maintained, improving the offense will improve both defensive and offensive efficiency.  The Sixers currently give up 99.5 ppg to their opponents. Obviously, if they're going to have a winning record, they need to average scoring higher than that, which gets us to 100! I suspect that if the Sixers can increase their scoring by another 2.77 ppg, they will also see a slight decrease in points allowed to 98.8 or so.  This in turn would make the Sixers into a wining team.

In effect, we're talking about 2 possessions per game being used more successfully. Since most teams score in about half their possessions, it's really 4 more plays where they execute on offense and get a score, a foul, both, or at least a rebound and another shot and score.

There isn't a lot of difference between wining and losing for a lot of teams, but they don't seem able to change they're style enough. Everyone here who watches the Sixers cries about how Eddie manages the game. I think the biggest problem is that he doesn't emphasize inside scoring enough. There are rarely enough bigs on the floor, but when there are the Sixers are usually competitive.

In the Sixers case, it's easy enough to see how they could improve.  Getting rid of Jordan would be the first step, but any new coach would play Speights and Carney more, focus on getting a reliable half-court offense working and then worry about how to improve their defense when it has time to get set. 

#1 Rick, a rule of thumb is not proof positive.

#2 Scoring 100 or more points, and scoring 25 points in every qtr are not as simply analogous as you make it.  You can score 120 points and only score 15 in 1 qtr.


Why do you value these ratings more that you do the actual scoring? The outcome is determined by the score, and it doesn't matter how efficient they are at it as long as they score the points!

#3  How do you make your last post, in conjunction with this statement.  You tell me it doesn't matter how efficient they are, and then in a later post you say that only 2 possessions define your success.  That is efficiency Rick.  If you said they need to get 4 more possessions, that is pace.  If you say they need to just execute on 2 more of their existing possessions that is efficiency.

A rule of thumb is not proof, it's a subjective ruler I'm using for evaluation- an informed valuation based on the team's peers, and specifically their betters. And you are right, you can score 100 without averaging 25 per quarter. But no matter how you slice it, better teams usually score 100 in a game and the Sixers do not. Which is why I came to the conclusion that they don't score enough.

As far a 3 goes, efficiency and pace are just measures, and they will invariably be effected if the team manages to score those extra 2.7 points.

If all those other teams weren't scoring over 100, I'd be asking for something unreasonable, but that isn't the case. The whole point of this was to point out how the Sixers could get better, and not scoring 100 was a good place to start considering this team and the league.

It isn't that they can't play defense, but their poor offense is at the root of the problem. It means they are less efficient on offense- because they don't run plays and rely on their one on one skills. This means less effective possessions, more long rebounds and easy run outs for the other team. All this is easily observable watching the team play. The stats will show that they are a bad offensive team.

It's easily correctable! Just have the team run more plays, use each other to get open and get set for a miss just in case. That's how the Sixers should and could play and would play if they had a good coach. As far as pace goes, it may be that in order to be more efficient they'll need to slow down. But I think good teams are proficient at getting off a good shot, relatively quickly. How often do you see the Lakers struggling to get a basket?

I think the easiest way to make the Sixers competitive is to work on the offense. The best teams in the league all average near 100. It seems to me a no-brainer to think that a better offense will help this team win more games, and by limiting turn-overs and misses, they will automatically improve their defense.

For this team it starts on their end, when they have the ball. When they are scoring easily, they can play with anyone. If they can figure out how to crack a zone consistently, they're the 50 win team I thought they could be.For the first time in years, we have the players. We have Elton Brand and Mareese Speights and they can both post up inside. It's driving me nuts that Eddie Jordan is the coach, he's supposed to be some sort of offensive genius and he can't get 100 points out of the line-up the way he coaches.

Even last night against the Bulls the team didn't score 100 until overtime. The Bulls have no interior defense and the Sixers needed overtime to get to 100!  That's because the coach decided to play small ball the entire 2nd half! They won in OT when they had both Brand and Dalembert in the game. As soon as they had two bigs in the middle, the Bulls turned into a jump-shooting team. Surprise!  It's simple things like this that make Jordan an idiot. The Sixers could have won this game easily in the 2nd half without the ot. He turns a good team into a bad one.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2010, 07:06:22 PM »
Very simple, direct question rick. 

Team A takes a shot every 10 seconds they have the ball.  They score 103 points on 41% shooting
Team B takes a shot every 20 seconds they have the ball.  they score 98 points on 48% shooting.

Which team has the better chance to win the game ?

Offline RickyPryor

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2010, 10:54:43 PM »
Very simple, direct question rick. 

Team A takes a shot every 10 seconds they have the ball.  They score 103 points on 41% shooting
Team B takes a shot every 20 seconds they have the ball.  they score 98 points on 48% shooting.

Which team has the better chance to win the game ?


The team that plays better defense. :)

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2010, 11:20:19 PM »
That's not part of the equation.  Assume all other parts of the game are equal.

Offline RickyPryor

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 11:14:18 AM »
That's not part of the equation.  Assume all other parts of the game are equal.

Just cracking a hilarious joke.

All things being equal, the team having the ball more often...and playing at a faster pace (resulting from good 'd' and rebounding) is more likely to win.

And, on a side note, with good coaching, leading to better shot selection, they could dominate - what-with having the ball so often.  After all...41% shooting - on so many fast break chances - is stinky.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Proof positive that the Sixers problem is offense and not defense.
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 12:02:54 PM »
It still isn't a reasonable question. We're discussing the Sixers and their problems not hypothetical team that don't exist.

So let's get to it, we have two choices the: Sixers problems are offense and not defense or the opposite, defense and not offense.  Both have an impact on the other- a good offense contributes to defense and a bad offense hurts defense.

It has been established that of the best 8 teams all average over 100 per game, except for one. And it is clear that the Sixers do not score 100 per game.

For some reason, that isn't enough for you. You want to talk about pace and efficiency and other things, but you keep ignoring the basic truth that my the metrics show they don't score enough points. It's not that complex a problem. The team that scores the most points wins the game, so if you're team scores more then they are more likely to win games. You can argue that if they allowed fewer points they could accomplish the same thing. But this is the argument: defense vs. offense, with regard to this specific team.

Since the best teams all score 100 or close to it, and the Sixers don't, how can you come to any other conclusion than that it's the offense that's the problem?