ESPN Insider....all decline team

[westkoast]

 Most people don't think about "clutch" in terms of defense.  Even the best defenders are seldom referred to as clutch.

It is easy to pick examples but it is harder to define.

How much of that do you think has to do with the fact that there is no way to track if a defender alters a shot?  Usually in order for a defensive player to get 'clutch' slapped onto them it is tied to something that gets tracked like a block or a steal (an offensive player gets 2 points).  If the defender forced the offensive player to alter his shot AND that was something the league tracked, do you think more defensive players would be labeled clutch?  It would be something to track and I think it would lead to more talk about defenders in key points.  You would probably see statistics like 'Tim Duncan alters 2.3 shots in the last 2 minutes of the game."

[Lurker]

I see "clutch" as being the person that you want to controll the ball in that "we-just-have-to-have-a-basket-NOW" possession regardless of the game clock. Most people don't think about "clutch" in terms of defense.  Even the best defenders are seldom referred to as clutch.

Except that you can have clutch defensive plays, someone mentioned a block from Garnett...so if you believe in clutch - don't you have to believe in it at both ends of the court?  Your team just made the go ahead basket and someone 'shuts down' the star player on the other team -  forcing a low percentage shot or a turnover - that's a clutch defensive play - I think if you believe in clutch you have to believe in it both ends of the court...you gotta believe there are guys you want on the court defensively at the end of the game as much as the guy you want taking the shot (And no eddie jordan, it's not Royal Ivery or Lou Williams when Jrue Holliday is available)

So if a defender (say Battier) guards a scorer (say Kobe) and the shot is missed.  Was it a "clutch" defensive play or did the "clutch" offensive player just fail on that occasion?

And the next time the shot goes in, which "clutch" takes precedent?  Offense or defense?

Defensive plays at the end of games are usually "key".  Key block.  Key steal.  Key interception.  Key tackle.  Key diving catch.  Key double play.

Offensive plays are "clutch".  Clutch shooting.  Clutch hitting.  Clutch passing.

 Most people don't think about "clutch" in terms of defense.  Even the best defenders are seldom referred to as clutch.

It is easy to pick examples but it is harder to define.

How much of that do you think has to do with the fact that there is no way to track if a defender alters a shot?  Usually in order for a defensive player to get 'clutch' slapped onto them it is tied to something that gets tracked like a block or a steal (an offensive player gets 2 points).  If the defender forced the offensive player to alter his shot AND that was something the league tracked, do you think more defensive players would be labeled clutch?  It would be something to track and I think it would lead to more talk about defenders in key points.  You would probably see statistics like 'Tim Duncan alters 2.3 shots in the last 2 minutes of the game."

In many ways it can be traced to the lack of measuring defensive contributions.  Also defense is often a product of the team more than the efforts of the individual.  Switching, double teams, rotations.  But even great defensive players like Bowen, Battier and Artest are seldom described as clutch.  And there are reports that show these defenders cause the offensive stars to have lower percentages and averages than against other run-of-the-mill defenders. 

Also I think that Derek had a lot of the right idea...clutch is a mental thing.  Or more precisely the ability to perform when the mental pressure is at it's highest.  It is usually talked about in terms of game winning or altering plays from an offensive point of view.  As I said above, critical defensive plays are usually called "key".

[jemagee]

So if a defender (say Battier) guards a scorer (say Kobe) and the shot is missed.  Was it a "clutch" defensive play or did the "clutch" offensive player just fail on that occasion?

And the next time the shot goes in, which "clutch" takes precedent?  Offense or defense?

Defensive plays at the end of games are usually "key".  Key block.  Key steal.  Key interception.  Key tackle.  Key diving catch.  Key double play.

Offensive plays are "clutch".  Clutch shooting.  Clutch hitting.  Clutch passing.

Without mre information there's no way to know - is it a shot kobe usually makes - did battier force kobe to do something that he doesn't usually do that made the shot ugly - you're talking in the abstract and not giving enough information about the event, it's neither yes nor no - it's null - indeterminant and unknown unless the situation is spelled out and that's the problem - there's not enough attention paid to defense in the NBA in terms of analysis...

[Skandery]

Adrenaline's ability to boost oxygen levels in the brain and muscles (as well as other actions) is very well documented.

Ah Derek, I believe the term "Epinephrine" is the proper nomenclature; adrenaline has become colloquial.  Interestingly the brain receptor is still called the Beta Adrenergic Receptor, though.   

<mutter>damn pharmacy school<mutter>



Anyway, for the subject at hand . . .  "clutch" exists.  Its not easy to define, but anyone who plays any sport competitively (or perhaps cheers for it first hand, fanatically) knows what it is.  A huge percentage of clutch opportunities present themselves at the ends of games (when the decision is near and looming), but I would say clutch opportunities can arise at any point in the game.   

[Joe Vancil]

I think the reason "defensive clutch" isn't spoken of is because people look at defense as a "less precise" art.  People look at shooting as being *VERY* precise - right form, right arch, good release, quick release, proper distance, proper angle...even at proper time.  People don't look at getting a steal the same way.  It doesn't have to be *just* *so*.  Anything that works, works.  Anything sufficiently close probably works well enough.

I also don't think you hear about "clutch passers," either - people who instinctively get the ball to the right person at the right time.  Why?  Because, as with defense, they see that as an imprecise art.

The idea that the art is imprecise means that it is less affected by outside factors (fatigue, focus, physical effects of andrenaline or epinephrine, etc.).  Since it's less affected by outside factors, it's not as difficult.  Less difficult means less valued.  At least, that's my theory.

Then again - how many "clutch" defensive plays can you name?  There's "Havlicek stole the ball!"  There's the Bird steal and pass to Dennis Johnson, but even that adds in that offensive component - and it's the only "clutch pass" that comes to mind.

Finally, another reason defense isn't looked at as significantly is because defense doesn't CHANGE the outcome of the game; it "seals" it, because defense in basketball doesn't score points.  And if a guy picks of a steal and goes in for a lay-up - well...he's SUPPOSED to hit his lay-ups, so that couldn't possibly be clutch, could it?  No defender changes his situation from one of losing to one of winning without a following offensive play of some type.  (Football is the single obvious exception, and that's because defenses can score points in football.)

[westkoast]

Then again - how many "clutch" defensive plays can you name?  There's "Havlicek stole the ball!"  There's the Bird steal and pass to Dennis Johnson, but even that adds in that offensive component - and it's the only "clutch pass" that comes to mind.

Well that comes back to the point that defensive plays are not as valued by the typical NBA fan and people who 'replay' certain parts of games.  They will play a guy hitting a jumper towards the end of a game a lot more than they will play say, Trevor Ariza stealing the ball from Denver which changed the outcome of the game.  That was a heck of a clutch defensive play but you probably won't ever see the highlight again and once Laker fans like myself drop it, it will fade.

The rest of your post was really good though Joe, props for it. 

[Lurker]

So if a defender (say Battier) guards a scorer (say Kobe) and the shot is missed.  Was it a "clutch" defensive play or did the "clutch" offensive player just fail on that occasion?

And the next time the shot goes in, which "clutch" takes precedent?  Offense or defense?

Without mre information there's no way to know - is it a shot kobe usually makes - did battier force kobe to do something that he doesn't usually do that made the shot ugly - you're talking in the abstract and not giving enough information about the event, it's neither yes nor no - it's null - indeterminant and unknown unless the situation is spelled out and that's the problem - there's not enough attention paid to defense in the NBA in terms of analysis...

10 seconds left in a game? half? quarter? To stop an opponent's 10 point run? It doesn't matter how you define the time moment.  And all other factors are also consistent (team members, refs, health), only thing that is different is the outcome - shot goes in or not.  Who was "clutch"?



Clutch is a term to describe an offensive player coming through under increased pressure.  And I would say we attribute different levels of "clutchness" depending on the importance of the play.  Hitting a tough shot in the closing seconds of a quarter can be clutch...especially in a battle of two closely matched teams.  Hitting a game winning shot is definately held in higher regard.  Performing clutch plays in the playoffs are higher still.  Otherwise you could never explain any Horry for the Hall talk.

And that goes with the "key" component for defense.  It is like what Joe said about defensively protecting a lead versus trying to offensively win a game.  You make "key" defensive stops/plays...in almost every sport.  And the bigger the reward the bigger the "key" stop is considered.


P.S. Joe, when I said clutch passing I was talking about the NFL.  These terms cross into all sports.

[jemagee]

10 seconds left in a game? half? quarter? To stop an opponent's 10 point run? It doesn't matter how you define the time moment.  And all other factors are also consistent (team members, refs, health), only thing that is different is the outcome - shot goes in or not.  Who was "clutch"?

You're ignoring the defensive aspect of the game...you're ignoring the impact a guy like shane battier can have on the game of one player - there's a whole bunch of articles about why the rockets love battier and how he works Kobe (I blieve kobe) better than anyone else in the league - he is a clutch defender.

Clutch is a term to describe an offensive player coming through under increased pressure.

Then if it's only limited to offensively players it's even more useless

[Derek Bodner]

so wait, we're getting all off track.

We're getting lost in the definition.

a few simple questions jem:
1) Does pressure affect athletes performance (either positively an negatively)?
1a) Do some players handle pressure better than others?
2) Does adrenaline (or Epinephrine) exist?
2a) Does adrenaline increase during late-game situations
2b) Does adrenaline affect athletes performance (either positively or negatively)?
2c) Do some players handle increases in adrenaline better than others?

[Lurker]

10 seconds left in a game? half? quarter? To stop an opponent's 10 point run? It doesn't matter how you define the time moment.  And all other factors are also consistent (team members, refs, health), only thing that is different is the outcome - shot goes in or not.  Who was "clutch"?

You're ignoring the defensive aspect of the game...you're ignoring the impact a guy like shane battier can have on the game of one player - there's a whole bunch of articles about why the rockets love battier and how he works Kobe (I blieve kobe) better than anyone else in the league - he is a clutch defender.

And where is support in articles or interviews that call him clutch?

He is called a top defender.  A key defender.  But no one refers to him as clutch...because clutch is generaslly reserved as a descriptor of offensive production.

Clutch is a term to describe an offensive player coming through under increased pressure.

Then if it's only limited to offensively players it's even more useless

But not as useless as your argumentative drivel for argument sake.

[Joe Vancil]

so wait, we're getting all off track.

We're getting lost in the definition.

a few simple questions jem:
1) Does pressure affect athletes performance (either positively an negatively)?
1a) Do some players handle pressure better than others?
2) Does adrenaline (or Epinephrine) exist?
2a) Does adrenaline increase during late-game situations
2b) Does adrenaline affect athletes performance (either positively or negatively)?
2c) Do some players handle increases in adrenaline better than others?

I'd say:

1) yes, 1a) yes.

2) obviously yes, 2a) needs to be studied, but potentially, probably, 2b) potentially, and 2c) potentially.  I'd say study is needed for part 2.  And also - is it a RAISED or LOWERED level of andrenaline that accounts for raised performance, and is it a possibility that the players whose levels DO NOT rise (or rise less) perform better, and is it possible that some perform better with higher levels and some perform better with lower levels.  Obviously, much of question 2 resides in a scientific realm where I am unaware of any studies or results, so therefore, I can't really answer with any authority.