Sixers Vs. Knicks 10/13/09

[anklebreaker]

Knicks like to play up tempo and have a lot of guys who can spread the floor.  They also don't really play defense, so hopefully we can run the offense a little better tonight.  I'm sure the Nate vs. Lou show will be in full effect... unfortunately.

The game is on MSG if anyone gets that channel... tip off is at 7:30. 

[rickortreat]

Sixers offense is still a work in progress, but there have been positive signs. If it's on MSG, someone will have a feed on justin.tv

Nate is a competitive street baller, with a huge ego.  But Lou is a better player, and not a head-case. It's a good, entertaining match-up and a good test for Lou to see if he can stay within himself and work the offense. The Knicks continue to suck, and are the type of team the Sixers should dominate.

I'm looking for Iguodala to cut down on the turnovers and missed shots, more solid play from Brand, continued good work from Kapono and Speights and hopefully some good PT for Jrue.  If Speights continues to show scoring ability in the low post, it portends a very good season for the Sixers.

[anklebreaker]

We won, but that was an ugly game.  Thad and Brand had their best games.  26 and 6 for Thad.  20 and 8 for EB. 

[jemagee]

Won but it wsa ugly - won on a fourth quarter come back - won but holliday got zero minutes.

Dear Eddie Jordan - wins and losses matter not in pre season - and royal ivey sucks

[anklebreaker]

Ugly all around game with us turning the ball over 28 times and NY attempting 41 treys and only connecting on 7 of them. No minutes for Holiday... not a fan of this. Ivey is not a good enough player to take preseason minutes away from our first round pick who, lets face it, could use the experience.

Brand took over to close out the 3rd quarter. He looked real good scoring from all over the place and rebounding the ball. Very encouraging.

Young played well all game, but also had a break out period in the 4th. Easily his best game so far.

Iguodala's turnovers are getting out of hand. 8 tonight... I mean a 5 turnover game would be improvement for him right now. Other than that, I think his jumper looks a little better. Even some of his misses look like they're at least on target. I think it'll improve as the season goes on, and I'd be surprised if Iguodala got off to another slow start this year.

Lou had a terrible 1st half and a bad shooting night. I thought he did a good job late in the 3rd and in the 4th quarter at getting in the paint and initiating contact. He's such a better player when he takes his man off the dribble, and when he realized the jumper wasn't working he figured out a way to contribute. And yes, as Dedicated has pointed out, he only had one turnover.

The bench got pretty limited run all around, but nobody looked particularly good.

Sam's 12 boards in 25 minutes was nice, but Sam just shouldn't be allowed to put the ball on the floor.

Our 2nd quarter was one of the worst in recent memory.. 14 turnovers is legendary for all the wrong reasons. Glad that we at least came out as the aggressors in the 2nd half and didn't let up till the game was over.

[rickortreat]

Way too many turnovers, which is becoming a common theme. Biggest contributor is Iguodala with 8 turnovers. But he also had 15 pts. 7 rebounds and 6 assists.

By the way justin.tv did not have the game, and I learned that it is dangerous to look as there are people there posting links to the game that are hacker/phishing sites. Good thing Avast was there to catch these things, but I still had to shut down my pc to close the browser. When you can't exit out of your browser through normal means, don't screw around. Disconnect your internet connection and shut off your pc. If you have to pull the plug go ahead and do that. Not a problem with XP.

Last thing I want to do is re-image my PC cause some jerkola is trying to mess with my system.

Anyway, the Sixers are winning and this is a good thing. You may think it's not important, but the truth is these are competitive athletes and they always want to win, even if they're just playing horse. This team is on a mission to be better and that means winning, as everything else they do is for that goal.

Not seeing the game makes it a little difficult to analyze, as all you can do is look at the boxscore and play-by-play. The turnovers are worrisome, as I'm not sure that Iguodala really has the handle to be a primary ball handler, and it isn't clear that Lou is able to either. They are still learning the offense, and it will take them time to be comfortable, but they aren't going to win against good teams surrendering 28 turnovers.  There was a chat with Kate from the Inquirer this afternoon who was of the opinion that Jrue wouldn't be ready to play steady minutes for another year or two.

Neither Kapono or Green are able ball handlers, and Ivey is even further down the depth chart. I don't want to harp on this too much, but it's something the Sixers need to get a handle on quickly.

On the bright side Brand is back and scoring like he did prior to coming to the Sixers 20 pts. and 8 boards. Young put up 26 and 6. Sam had only 4 pts, but 12 boards and was +15 in his time on the floor.  Eddie Jordan played his starters more like I expect in the regular season, most were in for about 30 min. and Sam was in for 25.  Jason Smith and Brezec had poor plus-minus scores in a very short amount of time around 5 min. If Speights is the only other big man that can play, they're going to have problems...

[jemagee]

There are more things important than winning a pre-season game - like playing Jrue Holliday - winning pre-season games matteres as much as playing in a little league game where everyone gets to play.

The detroit lions were 4-0 in the preseason in 2008 - they proceeded to lose every regular season game that season - and all further ones until they got to one of the worst run franchises in the NFL.

Yes they should play to win - but they PLAYED LIKE CRAP and still won - I don't care if they won - I care if they show progress in learning their new system.  Which they haven't.

All that 'talk' about sam doing great and excelling in this offense - has anyone seen that on the court yet?  Or is sam too busy working on his 18 foot jumper?

The sixers have fallen behind and looked like crap in almost every one of these pre season games and then had the 'strong second half run' to come back and win the meaningless game.

Games against MAYBE one playoff contender - and that team was missing two of its most impoertant players.

Unless Holliday was injured there's no GOOD excuse for him not playing in a pre season game - none - it's bad coaching...

[jemagee]

From a sixer blogger at the game

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/sixers-move-to-4-0.php

Interesting reference to kate fagans note - sixers excel in second half - after they abandon the PO

[rickortreat]

If Holiday was able to acquit himself on the court that would be one thing, but apparently he can't or Jordan would give him some PT.  Kate Fagen said he's not ready, not having seen him I have no reason to dispute her, they even gave Christmas some PT and he might not even make the team.

The Sixers are trying to run the PO, but aren't doing a good job of it, so they revert to their old ways and win the game. Far from ideal, but this is what happens in pre-season.

There's no sense in loosing games you can win, and persisting in an offense you can't run isn't exactly productive. All you learn is that you're not doing it right!

It is important for the team to learn how to run the PO and get results: easy shots. But let's not forget that the Sixers strength is defense and fast-break offense. You don't need any fancy passing when you can beat your man down the floor for a layup! You need the PO when you're facing a set defense. Apparently some of the Knicks are more familiar with the PO than the Sixers, since some of them already played for Jordan.

Brand is trying to prove himself, and Young needed to get himself going. The difficulties they're going through when trying to run the offense will help Jordan tailor the practices to overcome their weaknesses. It may be that Iguodala and Williams aren't good enough to run the PO, or the other players aren't making their cuts to get open. Hard to tell when you can't even see the game.

[jemagee]

The Sixers are trying to run the PO, but aren't doing a good job of it, so they revert to their old ways and win the game. Far from ideal, but this is what happens in pre-season.

That's bad coaching in my opinion, the wins and losses don't matter, progress matters, if they haven't progressed enough to run even the basics of the offense in two weeks you have to question the coaching or the IQ of the players (basketball wise) to learn the system.

Unless Eddie Jordan is going to give up on PO in regular season games as well, there's no point giving it up in a pre season game to avoid loosing.  Maybe Jordan is that one 'flexible' coach who will abandon his system if it doesn't work - but he has to abandon it NOW...you can't split the team like that.

YOU WILL NOT be able to come back every night like they are doing now in the regular season against good NBA teams...the sixers haven't played a single good team yet in this pre season

[rickortreat]

You're points are valid, but if they can't run the PO, there's no point in losing the game anyway. The Sixers know how to beat lousy teams like the Knicks, NJ, etc.

It is also likely that the reason your not seeing Jrue is because the players aren't getting to the spots on the floor they're supposed to in the PO, which puts pressure on the guard to break down his defender and shoot. Right now Iguodala and Williams are better suited to deal with a failure to run the PO properly.

I don't know enough about the PO, and haven't seen the team play. We do know that Jordan did get Washington to run it successfully so it isn't the coach. He isn't going to throw his players under the bus yet.  From what I understand, their is a fair amount of precision and timing, the ability to read and react that has to occur for the PO to work.

Kate Fagen said she thought it would take about a third of the season before they really get it. Apparently the learning curve is fairly steep, and the Sixers are lousy at team offense, thanks to Mo and DiLeo.

We all want the team to be successful, it's going to take some time for them to learn this new system. We're going to have to be patient while the team struggles to get the concepts down and put them to use.

[jemagee]

You're points are valid, but if they can't run the PO, there's no point in losing the game anyway. The Sixers know how to beat lousy teams like the Knicks, NJ, etc.

If they can't run the PO and Jordan cna't teach them the PO - tell me again why Jordan was hired?  If the PO is unworkable what does Jordan bring that makes him a more qualified coach than Thibodeau?  Cause right now I'm unimpressed with his ability to impart his 'easy to understand' system to NBA veterans.  I'm not surprised sam can't get it - setting a pick is hard for sam - but either the rest of the team is woefully low on the basketball IQ scale, or it's not an 'easy system' to get, or Jordan is an awful coach as they can't seem to even get the basics in 3 weeks.

None of these options are real encouraging to me.

I cancelled my league pass 'auto renew' at halftime of last nights game - i can spend that 169 in better ways - so unless I win that 5K from combos - i doubt I'll see more than the lakers and clippers games for the sixers this year.

We do know that Jordan did get Washington to run it successfully so it isn't the coach.

i don't necessarily buy that logic - does anyone know how long it took the wizards roster to figure it out.

and the Sixers are lousy at team offense, thanks to Mo and DiLeo.

The sixers are lousy at tea offense because of their roster...they don't have 'team offense' guys...their starting center is a moron, their starting point guard isn't a point guard, he's a gunner who happens to be short, and their 2/3 are better in isolation...they aren't a team BUILT for a team offense...blame the coaching all you want, but they haven't had a good offense since brown left...at some point the roster is the problem, not the carousel of coaches.

The team does have a strength though - it's defense - so thank god they hired a coach who focuses on that strength...oh wiat.

We all want the team to be successful, it's going to take some time for them to learn this new system. We're going to have to be patient while the team struggles to get the concepts down and put them to use.

I'm also going to have to be patient cause Sam picked up basketball late, right?

[rickortreat]

I'm not going to defend Sam.  I want him to be good, but I'm done being hopeful. His play is too uneven, and he continues to do dumb things on the court. No progress in improving means Sam is a bust.  I'm very concerned about the bigs, since only Speights can play and not on the defensive end.

The PO obviously works, and there's no reason talented one on one players can't learn it. But this team has never had a good offense, even when Brown was here it was all Iverson breaking down the other team and a bunch of gritty role players. Seriously they haven't been a good passing team since Barkley left!

The real problem I have with your thinking is with Lou Williams. Even if you're right that he's not as good a passer as Miller, he's a better defender, simply because he's quicker and can stay in front of his man. Chris Paul would blow by Miller as if he wasn't there, and for all intents and purposes he wasn't on the defensive end! At worst replacing Miller with Williams is a wash, since Lou can break down his man and get to the basket.

This is still a better than .500 team even without the PO, even if Brand is only 80% of what he used to be. Meaning if they play the old way, defending and fast-breaking and using Brand in iso's and forcing other teams to double him to open up the lanes for Iguodala or Young, or leaving Speights open to shoot. They should still be able to outplay most teams. It's the elite teams that they will need the PO for. The rest of them, the Sixers will beat because they're better athletes. 

You should save you're money though, wait until half-way through the season to see if I'm right about Williams and the effect Brand will have. If they figure out the PO, they'll be worth watching. 

[jemagee]

The PO obviously works, and there's no reason talented one on one players can't learn it. But this team has never had a good offense, even when Brown was here it was all Iverson breaking down the other team and a bunch of gritty role players. Seriously they haven't been a good passing team since Barkley left!

So why is it the coaches fault - why isn't it the rosters fault?

The real problem I have with your thinking is with Lou Williams. Even if you're right that he's not as good a passer as Miller, he's a better defender, simply because he's quicker and can stay in front of his man.

Well if you're only worried about defense, Holliday is 6'3 and a better defender than Williams.

If someone thinks that the OVERALL impact of louis williams starting over andre miller is an upgrade - then they're nuts - that's how I see it - I hated Andre Miller - it's a well known fact - but if i was told the only options were miller starting or lou williams starting - i'd take andre miller - lou wiliams is a nice bench player - he is not an NBA starter, you can't MAKE him one just cause you want him to be - tried that with willie green and failed already (more out of necessity)...i hoped the sixers would get a real PG after they let miller walk - not just slot in a guy who isn't a point guard, who is undersized, and thinks shoot first second and third.

You got a new coach, about 1/3 of the roster is guys who weren't really factors last year...sam is still sam, speights isn't showing improvement...if they're 41-41 this year i'll think they achieved something

[Joe Vancil]

Well, mark down me among the folks who think that not having a point guard that really is a point guard is going to hinder the use of the Princeton Offense.  Miller had his drawbacks, but he's a better fit for this offensive scheme than anyone Philadelphia has right now.

That said, I believe this can work in Philadelphia, but there's a real need for a strong point guard.  The Princeton Offense needs someone who can, by their play, symbolically lead it, and it stands to reason that that person would be the team's point guard.  Miller's game wasn't quite well-rounded enough, but it's closer than anyone than Philadelphia currently has going out there.

I hate saying it, because I truly detest the player, but he is available, and he might fit in this:  Jamaal Tinsley.  Heck, even Stephon Marbury.  But Philadelphia needs to do something.  Ray Felton seemed the obvious answer to me.